Looking at that from a new angle, it seems like the realpolitik on his part, thus far, is more driven of desperation and his deep belief that the Faith of the Seven is the single best option for humanity, to ward away the dark terrors of the night.
 
Looking at that from a new angle, it seems like the realpolitik on his part, thus far, is more driven of desperation and his deep belief that the Faith of the Seven is the single best option for humanity, to ward away the dark terrors of the night.
You do realize that doesn't make him less delusional, right? There's no realpolitik going on inside his head. Only the righteous, those that need to be killed ASAP and those who can be forced to knuckle down or be killed later.
 
Yup.

I've been really liking Lucan so far, even if he makes this incredibly difficult for us.

You know, since we've started actually talking and getting information on the who's who of the Conclave, I got the feeling that they could actually reasonably settle things, that we'd need a huge spanner in the works, to cause enormous amounts of friction for anything remotely similar to what people are apparently dead sure will happen, I.e violent, or at least radical, splintering.

Lucan, whom had very few votes and seemed like a fanatic, seemed the one ticket to it.

And it turns out that he isn't. He outright uses the same language as Viserys does, and has shown himself emminently reasonable in this latest update, neatly nipping one of the biggest objectionable traits we'd thought he had.

If he is unaware of the ultimate Court of Stars play, I say we employ our greatest weapon: Talk-no-Jutsu: Friendship is Magic.

Because at this point, it feels like we only need to dispel the caricature of us he has built, much like we are having the one we built torn down by actual interaction with him, and show him that, ultimately, what he wants leads to an unacceptable, absolute theocracy.

Because if he is, deep down, a Good Man, then he should be good with us. Hell, he should be our biggest supporter, given how we've elevated the standards of living, gave aid to the unfortunate and severely revamped the justice system to be fairer, faster and more representative.
Ah, but we're enemies.
We want his Gods humbled, and our closes allies are strongly pushing for that. We have fundamental differences regarding the fate of his Gods. We want to splinter the Faith while he wants to unite it !
We can agree on many things, but he'll never be a Companion and he'll always be an enemy eventually.
 
Looking at that from a new angle, it seems like the realpolitik on his part, thus far, is more driven of desperation and his deep belief that the Faith of the Seven is the single best option for humanity, to ward away the dark terrors of the night.
So our strategy? Good to see he's been taking notes.

@Duesal we could do Brienne fairly easily with our standard strategy (see what TNE said above) and I would love to actually find some stuff out about the Smith's chosen.
 
You do realize that doesn't make him less delusional, right? There's no realpolitik going on inside his head. Only the righteous, those that need to be killed ASAP and those who can be forced to knuckle down or be killed later.
Viserys is/was just as blind to the human cost of his crusade until a few weeks ago.

Edit: @mrsean22 where there is chaos there are those who will exploit it. And there will be chaos.

He probably has plans to limit casualties just like we do.
 
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Looking at that from a new angle, it seems like the realpolitik on his part, thus far, is more driven of desperation and his deep belief that the Faith of the Seven is the single best option for humanity, to ward away the dark terrors of the night.

Pretty much. And he's been made to believe by the Father - or at least, he was at first - that we're just wanting to drag the world down into another cycle of blood and fire like old Valyria.

Except we don't.

He's seeing us as the caricature we've been seeing him through.

Now of course, I don't think a peaceful resolution with him is possible, not with what we owe the Old Gods. But if talking to one of his Godsworn plays out as I think it might, there's at least a reason to try.
 
Ah, but we're enemies.
We want his Gods humbled, and our closes allies are strongly pushing for that. We have fundamental differences regarding the fate of his Gods. We want to splinter the Faith while he wants to unite it !
We can agree on many things, but he'll never be a Companion and he'll always be an enemy eventually.

Ahem.

We don't necessarily need to splinter the faith. As long as the faith is our enemy, we need it weakened. But, judging as how practical this Lucan seems to be... maybe we can come to an arrangement so that the Seven are humbled in a way tolerable for them, and the Old Gods lose their murderboner.

This guy is intelligent enough to know when to make compromises. And I guess that he could clearly see that he can't beat all of our MAXIMUM MUNCHKINEERED PCS and all our vassals.
 
Danelle was willing to at least try for a political compromise.

Which will involve asking what reparations the Old God's actually want.

Because if the 7 are willing to pay it then it will spare a tremendous amount of mortal blood.
 
Ahem.

We don't necessarily need to splinter the faith. As long as the faith is our enemy, we need it weakened. But, judging as how practical this Lucan seems to be... maybe we can come to an arrangement so that the Seven are humbled in a way tolerable for them, and the Old Gods lose their murderboner.

This guy is intelligent enough to know when to make compromises. And I guess that he could clearly see that he can't beat all of our MAXIMUM MUNCHKINEERED PCS and all our vassals.
No, again, he's not. He's faking it for the benefit of the conclave. There's a reason the people who really know him, be it Danelle or his own angels, think little of him. Of course he offers compromise today, once he has what he wants here he'll be in a position to easily get his way.
 
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Not again please.

I'm fine with turning mini-bosses like Taena or Rina, but actual bosses like Mel and Lucan should be fought properly.
It's just so dissapointing to loose that chance.
 
Something to add here is that it's putting Danelle's dislike of the man in a very different light. I think this is his hail mary. If he fails here, the Faith just isn't going to be able to catch us. And at that point, he gets to make the choice. Commit to dying for nothing, or try to see what making a deal would cost.
 
You do realize that doesn't make him less delusional, right? There's no realpolitik going on inside his head. Only the righteous, those that need to be killed ASAP and those who can be forced to knuckle down or be killed later.
That's my point.

His entire feud looks more and more like the product of misunderstandings and manipulation.

Shatter his delusions, and we are natural allies.
Ah, but we're enemies.
We want his Gods humbled, and our closes allies are strongly pushing for that. We have fundamental differences regarding the fate of his Gods. We want to splinter the Faith while he wants to unite it !
We can agree on many things, but he'll never be a Companion and he'll always be an enemy eventually.
On the contrary: we want the same things,

What I'm getting is that a united Faith is a means to an end for Lucan.

And therein lies the crux of the matter: convince him we are his best choice at achieving what he wants, that we are already doing it, and that's it. I do not believe he'd hesitate to pay a "the faith is weakened" price.

The Chosen are not puppets of their Gods.

If they were avatars by another name, Bloodraven wouldn't have been downing them like bowling pins, and, more importantly, they wouldn't ever have the option to fall, or fail. And they do.

Don't mistake our means for our ends, Talon. We've been appeasing the OG for a long damn while now, we've been steadily making progress on humbling big offenders in the Vale, and Uncle did said, way back when, it would not take slaughter to see the OG sated enough that the matter is settled.

Humbling. That's the key world. We've been working for the least murderous solution for a while now, because we know better.

Does Lucan strike you as someone that's not willing to swallow pride, for the sake of his flock?
 
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No, again, he's not. He's faking it for the benefit of the conclave. There's a reason the people who really know him, be it Danelle or his own angels, think little of him. Of course he offers compromise today, once he has what he wants he'll be in a position to easily enforce his orthodoxy

I'm going to be adopting an evidence based approach to this, thanks. And on that, TNE is very right about how much we've allowed ourselves to make him a villain from only the smallest details.
 
...I'd really rather just have Lucan captured and sacrificed, than trying to get him on our side, reasanoble he may seem or not.
I despise the idea.
Really, really much. I hope everyone understands that he's very likely just bullshitting everyone here, us included, to be seen in better light?
 
...I'd really rather just have Lucan captured and sacrificed, than trying to get him on our side, reasanoble he may seem or not.
I despise the idea.
Really, really much. I hope everyone understands that he's very likely just bullshitting everyone here, us included, to be seen in better light?

Like we don't do exactly the same thing. I want to see what his cohorts have to say, in this venue. And if an arrangement can be reached, as another has said, it will save thousands of lives.
 
The Chosen are not puppets of their Gods.

If they were avatars by another name, Bloodraven wouldn't have been downing them like bowling pins, and, more importantly, they wouldn't ever have the option to fall, or fail. And they do.

Don't mistake our means for our ends, Talon. We've been appeasing the OG for a long damn while now, we've been steadily making progress on humbling big offenders in the Vale, and Uncle did say,w ay back when, it would not take slaughter to see the OG sated enough that the matter is settled.

Humbling. That's the key world.

Does Lucan strike you as someone that's not willing to swallow pride, for the sake of his flock?
The chosen are not puppets, they're loyal servants. They do the will of their gods, and the Father is among other things the god of Lords, laws and ruling. He literally can't bow like this, not anymore than Tiamat can be charitable or Yss unfair.
 
Like we don't do exactly the same thing.
I prefer my enemies dead, than revealing ourselves to them to any degree.
I had a lot of trouble staying in thread when it looked like we are about to engage King-Killer-Angel in diplomacy, and I'm not enthused at all about trying to turn Lucan.
it will save thousands of lives.
Since then I care about that?
[:V]

For real though, I barely engaged the straw-manning of Lucan before, but I got very used to the idea that we will fight him eventually.
I want that now.
I want a climactic ending of his arc be "stapled and sacrificed by the Heart Tree".
The fact that his effective rethoric ruins enjoyment of several updates in a row for me doesn't help the matter at all.

I won't ever trust him, even if we manage to turn him.
At least Melisande doesn't have such a high-standing position in her faith as Lucan does to covertly wreak chaos if she wants to.
And she's only slightly more powerful than him personally, I wager.
 
He's faking it for the benefit of the conclave
That's not Viserys reading of him so far, and I trust Viserys' skill at it absurdly more than I trust what's been steadily revealed as the caracture of him that we've built in our head.
The chosen are not puppets, they're loyal servants. They do the will of their gods, and the Father is among other things the god of Lords, laws and ruling. He literally can't bow like this, not anymore than Tiamat can be charitable or Yss unfair.
Yes, but they are, fundamentally, people of principles. People of faith.

And that makes all the difference. They aren't faithful to the Father and Maiden, personally. They are faithful to what the Father and Maiden represent.

And loyal servants fundamentally have the choice to rebel, don't forget. It's simply a matter of what's at stake out-weighting their personal loyalty, be it love, greed, fear, duty or whatever else.
 
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For real though, I barely engaged the straw-manning of Lucan before, but I got very used to the idea that we will fight him eventually.
I want that now.
I want a climactic ending of his arc be "stapled and sacrificed by the Heart Tree".
The fact that his effective rethoric ruins enjoyment of several updates in a row for me doesn't help the matter at all.

Ah, I see. You're ascribing to narrative based Fae logic :V
 
That's not Viserys reading of him so far, and I trust Viserys' skill at it absurdly more than I trust what's been steadily revealed as the caracture of him that we've built in our head.

Yes, but they are, fundamentally, people of principles. People of faith.

And that makes all the difference. They aren't faithful to the Father and Maiden, personally. They are faithful to what the Father and Maiden represent.
You sure about that? If say, the Father represents fairness and virtue, doesn't that mean that his decisions are inherently so and anyone who says otherwise is lying?

Besides, while he might be speaking the truth, there's also the fact his argument hangs on virtue and morality, and the high standards of them demanded from mages. When he inevitably starts finding mages and the lords who could be trusted with commanding them fall below such standards, he will naturally turn against them.
 
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Ahem.

We don't necessarily need to splinter the faith. As long as the faith is our enemy, we need it weakened. But, judging as how practical this Lucan seems to be... maybe we can come to an arrangement so that the Seven are humbled in a way tolerable for them, and the Old Gods lose their murderboner.

This guy is intelligent enough to know when to make compromises. And I guess that he could clearly see that he can't beat all of our MAXIMUM MUNCHKINEERED PCS and all our vassals.
By definition, if the Seven are fine with our plans to humble them then they haven't really been humbled, have they? There's an element of resentment and anger when you humble someone. You force them to gain in humility.
Basically I think that anything the Seven are fine with will be unsatisfactory to the OG (unless we're making the Seven agree to something incredibly drastic by threatening to kill them somehow).

Oh, and I've been providing flavorful yet dangerous builds for Lucan's minions to DP. I really do think that they won't be boring pushovers unless we pick some really amazing tactics.
The ones I've been touching are lower leveled than us and underequipped compared to us, but I still think they could be a nuisance or even kill some Companions depending on how we play.

That's my point.

His entire feud looks more and more like the product of misunderstandings and manipulation.

Shatter his delusions, and we are natural allies.

On the contrary: we want the same things,

What I'm getting is that a united Faith is a means to an end for Lucan.

And therein lies the crux of the matter: convince him we are his best choice at achieving what he wants, that we are already doing it, and that's it. I do not believe he'd hesitate to pay a "the faith is weakened" price.

The Chosen are not puppets of their Gods.

If they were avatars by another name, Bloodraven wouldn't have been downing them like bowling pins, and, more importantly, they wouldn't ever have the option to fall, or fail. And they do.

Don't mistake our means for our ends, Talon. We've been appeasing the OG for a long damn while now, we've been steadily making progress on humbling big offenders in the Vale, and Uncle did said, way back when, it would not take slaughter to see the OG sated enough that the matter is settled.

Humbling. That's the key world. We've been working for the least murderous solution for a while now, because we know better.

Does Lucan strike you as someone that's not willing to swallow pride, for the sake of his flock?
I think that the Seven will order him to fuck with us. We could maybe try to turn him against his Gods, but that seems very unlikely : he's faithful and doesn't see the problem in their commandments.
 
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