It never even got close to being a diplomatic incident. We nipped that possibility in the bud through a direct meeting with the Sultana, and strengthened our diplomatic ties with the Shaitan as a result.

I don't often call people in the thread on their overuse of hyperbole, but you just hit that button hardcore, dude.

Viserys is a character we've created, an amalgamation of choices made over literally thousands of decisions throughout the years. Just because he doesn't match your exact expectations of him shouldn't cause a snit.

So what if he has some morals? Everyone has some sort of moral guideline unless they're an unrepentant psychotic sociopath. Morals aren't necessarily rational, either.
There was a ret-con involved, so I'm guessing you didn't catch the original version.

At first, DP had interpreted the winning vote from me as not being willing to turn over fugitive slaves to the Shaitan if they are captured, including some firebrand internal monologue and dialogue about the whole matter. Nevermind that a good part of those people are convicted criminals and Viserys is forcing those to work for him too. This caused some significant outrage among the Shaitan courtiers.

I've corrected my intent and we got a ret-con, telling the Sultana that we will turn over escaped slaves.
 
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And that's the thing. Viserys often evokes the same feelings as the canned speech of a RPG.

Oh, sure, the statements kinda make sense in isolation, but in the sum total? It's like walking into the main quest after a long stint of playing Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild quest lines, then suddenly feeling this tremendous dissonance at being some kind of hero of the people all of the sudden.
If you have issues with Viserys the character, why not instead think of him as Viserys, the leader of a growing realm, and play from the aspect of a nation builder?
 
This entire thing is kind of mind boggling to me.

Azel is now shaming the thread for the path he constructed and led us down.

Its... honestly pretty impressive.

I haven't learned anything new about human nature in a while from the thread. Thanks guys!
 
If you have issues with Viserys the character, why not instead think of him as Viserys, the leader of a growing realm, and play from the aspect of a nation builder?
I have been trying that for months and years now, but Viserys the Character is turning ever more loathsome as the two versions of him diverge ever farther.

Right now, on-screen Viserys is sometimes looking more moralistic then Waymar, yet the off-screen Viserys looks like the combination of Zherys and Malarys, supercharged on Dragon.

The Suspension Bridge of Disbelief is way more then a bit frayed.
 
This entire thing is kind of mind boggling to me.

Azel is now shaming the thread for the path he constructed and led us down.

Its... honestly pretty impressive.

I haven't learned anything new about human nature in a while from the thread. Thanks guys!
I have never even pretended that the path I'm leading you on was headed anywhere except damnation. Well, and world domination, but the majority agreed that ruling in hell is better then serving in heaven.
 
I mean there is a reason most games are designed to be hard. Like adversity gives bigger sense of accomplishment.

Most games are designed to be hard through mechanics and difficult challenges, not through a moral system. There is a difference between a game being hard because of gameplay and a game being hard because a player cannot make certain choices due to morality. It would be like playing a rpg and not being able to kill orcs because the PC chosen is an orc. It's one thing if it is the players choosing to spare an orc in the name of role-play. It is another thing when a game is forcing it. So allow me to correct myself. Why should we use a morality system to make the game more difficult when in-quest mechanics and in-quest events already do so? What is the point? Because all I see is pointless self-restriction
 
I'm just going to weigh in minutely to give my viewpoint, since I am one of those people who have often spoken up about how dissonant it sometimes feel to have these segways that try to paint Viserys as some type of martyr or person with a messiah complex, yet somehow paradoxically has a key defining trait of loathing hypocrisy.

While I would be perfectly fine with openly acknowledging our decisions and choices for what they were, those of a pragmatist, if this starts us down a path that makes us some kind of utilitarian who only makes choices because they hold some benefit to an ideological goal, that would be equally as out of character as somehow being a bleeding heart who would risk creating diplomatic tensions with a key ally over something the majority of the thread is willing to compromise over, as we have time and time again.

There is a line. We've painted it more than one time. Some of us here might be fine with the idea of using children or innocent people as tools or fodder for schemes, but a lot of us also feel that people who are paid to fight and kill are expected to march to war, sometimes without the most optimum support maximally possible to them simply because the opportunity cost of making it policy to fight every war for our own army is far too great, and because Viserys has definite hangups when it comes to kill children or people who have otherwise done nothing wrong, and have displayed mostly that this is true to fact.

@DragonParadox Just going by prose alone, and something I feel shouldn't have to get bitchslapped into our face insultingly by the ultimate hypocrite, someone throwing off the chains of tyrannical Gods only to become some semblance of that themselves to fight off the yoke from reattaching itself via another group (Baator), is equally disgusting. A discussion from Rhaella would be more appropriate at this point, since Viserys is equally unlikely to ignore her view point and treat the discussion with the seriousness it deserves, but I would outright dismiss most of what Syrax had to say even if she, even more insultingly, punctuated her statements with dream scenery of what her acts led to.

We are not some emotionless automaton, but neither are we a good person. If we just acknowledged the latter point, that would be enough. Even providing justification for queasy acts would be in character.

Viserys does, and should, care more about not being a tyrant, than not being a villain. We are already a villain.
 
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I have never even pretended that the path I'm leading you on was headed anywhere except damnation. Well, and world domination, but the majority agreed that ruling in hell is better then serving in heaven.
Wow, relax. If our Empire turns into hell without actual justification then I'm straight-up leaving this quest. We're nowhere near that point yet!
 
@DragonParadox Just going by prose alone, and something I feel shouldn't have to get bitchslapped into our face insultingly by the ultimate hypocrite, someone throwing off the chains of tyrannical Gods only to become some semblance of that themselves to fight off the yoke from reattaching itself via another group (Baator), is equally disgusting. A discussion from Rhaella would be more appropriate at this point, since Viserys is equally unlikely to ignore her view point and treat the discussion with the seriousness it deserves, but I would outright dismiss most of what Syrax had to say even if she, even more insultingly, punctuated her statements with dream scenery of what her acts led.

Rhaella does not know much of what you are doing, to cover everything it practically has to be a god, also Syrax has learned quite a bit of humility since being dead so I would not say she is entirely ill fitting. The other alternative would have been Blodoraven but I can't really justify him doing looking so closely at Viserys' deeds and his self image which all the other stiff he has to do.
 
Then Viserys should just confront this himself.

I unilaterally refuse to acknowledge Syrax in this manner until she has actually had some more time to be a character and earn our trust.
 
I have been trying that for months and years now, but Viserys the Character is turning ever more loathsome as the two versions of him diverge ever farther.

Right now, on-screen Viserys is sometimes looking more moralistic then Waymar, yet the off-screen Viserys looks like the combination of Zherys and Malarys, supercharged on Dragon.

The Suspension Bridge of Disbelief is way more then a bit frayed.
I just don't see him as particularly moralistic. I don't want to say you are imagining what isn't there, but it just seems like you are reading too much into decisions and actions which make sense at the time they are made for a whole host of reasons. Context is important.

Honestly, though, I've reached the limit of time I'm willing to expend on this argument. I'll cast my vote on the upcoming chapter and leave it at that.
 
Then Viserys should just confront this himself.

I unilaterally refuse to acknowledge Syrax in this manner until she has actually had some more time to be a character and earn our trust.

I respect you position, but to be honest I can't think of a better vector and I'm not sure I have it in me to write out that update again from another perspective
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on May 2, 2019 at 8:37 AM, finished with 305297 posts and 9 votes.

Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on May 2, 2019 at 8:37 AM, finished with 161 posts and 13 votes.

  • [X] Contact Baelor Hightower about facilitating a clandestine introduction to what passes for leadership of the Lantern Bearers of Old Town.
    -[X] According to Baelor, the Lantern Bearers are poor in magic, at least in part due to Deep One interference. We would like to offer Lantern Bearers training in the magical arts in one or more of our Scholarium branches, free of charge or obligation. What they do is too important for not just Old Town or the Reach, but all of humanity, for them to be hampered by politics and fear.
    --[X] In addition, we would offer them enchanted gear and Alchemical substances, free of charge. Although we would need some time before we could deliver much in the way of magic, we can give them ten Healing Belts right now.
    ---[X] Donated Alchemical Substances: Alchemist's Fire (x100), Antiplague (x10), Antitoxin (x10), Auran Mask (x10), Fungal Stun Vials (x20), Healing Salve (x100).
    --[X] Offer to provide assistance to the Lantern Bearers wrapping up the Deep One plot, though for obvious reasons the identities of our allies would need to remain hidden from those not intimately involved.
    ---[X] Ask Waymar and Tyene to provide extra muscle and magic to the Lantern Bearers, should they accept our offer.
    -[X] While the Lantern Bearers are dealing with the Deep Ones, Viserys, Malarys, Vee, Richard, and a pair of Erinyes will assault the corrupted Sept of the Smith to eliminate the Tiamat cultists and capture her Red Abishai minion.
    --[X] Coinciding with the raid on the Sept, Dany, Sandor, Lya, Rina, and Garin, with Erinyes support, will assault the Golden Company's safehouse.
    -[X] All three raids will be planned making use of Divination for maximum effectiveness while working around our enemies' own Divinations.
    --[X] Take steps to prevent the surveillance on Baelor from learning of our presence or Baelor's interactions with us, including using body doubles and deliberate distractions.
 
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Most games are designed to be hard through mechanics and difficult challenges, not through a moral system. There is a difference between a game being hard because of gameplay and a game being hard because a player cannot make certain choices due to morality. It would be like playing a rpg and not being able to kill orcs because the PC chosen is an orc. It's one thing if it is the players choosing to spare an orc in the name of role-play. It is another thing when a game is forcing it. So allow me to correct myself. Why should we use a morality system to make the game more difficult when in-quest mechanics and in-quest events already do so? What is the point? Because all I see is pointless self-restriction
Your example was my point. If the characters have morals then we should roleplay like we have the same morals. Not like we know something is immoral to the character but we are going to do it anyway because it gives us more power. So if we want to try to be good we should take good actions. If we dont, might as well sacrifise the whole empire or something for power. I know extreme joke example but still.
 
You know, I already saw Viserys as a utilitarian who is sometimes hypocritical. He wants absolute power, he wants to do good and help his people, but he is absolutely willing to do unpalatable things to achieve that goal. He then feels bad when he sees them happen, but he tells himself that "on the long term, this is necessary".

Of course sometimes he does these things so much that he gets used to them and no longer really has qualms about it... That's good writing, and I appreciated it when it was shown that he no longer was repulsed by blood sacrificing devils in and of itself.

That's the interpretation of Viserys that I will be pushing for if I can. He can have regrets, he can be aware of his own hypocrisy, but I don't expect him to stop doing what he does. And yes, he can probably decide to abandon some moral hangups (he set up the fucking Inquisition, after all) but I'm not 100% set on that or even sure which ones to try and dump.
 
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Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Goldfish on May 2, 2019 at 8:38 AM, finished with 162 posts and 13 votes.

  • [X] Contact Baelor Hightower about facilitating a clandestine introduction to what passes for leadership of the Lantern Bearers of Old Town.
    -[X] According to Baelor, the Lantern Bearers are poor in magic, at least in part due to Deep One interference. We would like to offer Lantern Bearers training in the magical arts in one or more of our Scholarium branches, free of charge or obligation. What they do is too important for not just Old Town or the Reach, but all of humanity, for them to be hampered by politics and fear.
    --[X] In addition, we would offer them enchanted gear and Alchemical substances, free of charge. Although we would need some time before we could deliver much in the way of magic, we can give them ten Healing Belts right now.
    ---[X] Donated Alchemical Substances: Alchemist's Fire (x100), Antiplague (x10), Antitoxin (x10), Auran Mask (x10), Fungal Stun Vials (x20), Healing Salve (x100).
    --[X] Offer to provide assistance to the Lantern Bearers wrapping up the Deep One plot, though for obvious reasons the identities of our allies would need to remain hidden from those not intimately involved.
    ---[X] Ask Waymar and Tyene to provide extra muscle and magic to the Lantern Bearers, should they accept our offer.
    -[X] While the Lantern Bearers are dealing with the Deep Ones, Viserys, Malarys, Vee, Richard, and a pair of Erinyes will assault the corrupted Sept of the Smith to eliminate the Tiamat cultists and capture her Red Abishai minion.
    --[X] Coinciding with the raid on the Sept, Dany, Sandor, Lya, Rina, and Garin, with Erinyes support, will assault the Golden Company's safehouse.
    -[X] All three raids will be planned making use of Divination for maximum effectiveness while working around our enemies' own Divinations.
    --[X] Take steps to prevent the surveillance on Baelor from learning of our presence or Baelor's interactions with us, including using body doubles and deliberate distractions.
 
Wow, relax. If our Empire turns into hell without actual justification then I'm straight-up leaving this quest. We're nowhere near that point yet!
That's... a gross misrepresentation of the quoted line in particular and my position as a whole?

All I'm arguing is that Viserys should own his choices. He has multiple times sacrificed thousands of people for power, politics, expedience and to make a point. And he always had other options, could have made other choices, or simply stepped away and not taken an opportunity. This blood is not on his hands because it was necessary or unavoidable, but because Viserys stood before these people and said: "You will all die for my purposes and I'm fine with that."
 
Winning Vote (again)
Adhoc vote count started by Goldfish on May 2, 2019 at 8:38 AM, finished with 162 posts and 13 votes.

  • [X] Contact Baelor Hightower about facilitating a clandestine introduction to what passes for leadership of the Lantern Bearers of Old Town.
    -[X] According to Baelor, the Lantern Bearers are poor in magic, at least in part due to Deep One interference. We would like to offer Lantern Bearers training in the magical arts in one or more of our Scholarium branches, free of charge or obligation. What they do is too important for not just Old Town or the Reach, but all of humanity, for them to be hampered by politics and fear.
    --[X] In addition, we would offer them enchanted gear and Alchemical substances, free of charge. Although we would need some time before we could deliver much in the way of magic, we can give them ten Healing Belts right now.
    ---[X] Donated Alchemical Substances: Alchemist's Fire (x100), Antiplague (x10), Antitoxin (x10), Auran Mask (x10), Fungal Stun Vials (x20), Healing Salve (x100).
    --[X] Offer to provide assistance to the Lantern Bearers wrapping up the Deep One plot, though for obvious reasons the identities of our allies would need to remain hidden from those not intimately involved.
    ---[X] Ask Waymar and Tyene to provide extra muscle and magic to the Lantern Bearers, should they accept our offer.
    -[X] While the Lantern Bearers are dealing with the Deep Ones, Viserys, Malarys, Vee, Richard, and a pair of Erinyes will assault the corrupted Sept of the Smith to eliminate the Tiamat cultists and capture her Red Abishai minion.
    --[X] Coinciding with the raid on the Sept, Dany, Sandor, Lya, Rina, and Garin, with Erinyes support, will assault the Golden Company's safehouse.
    -[X] All three raids will be planned making use of Divination for maximum effectiveness while working around our enemies' own Divinations.
    --[X] Take steps to prevent the surveillance on Baelor from learning of our presence or Baelor's interactions with us, including using body doubles and deliberate distractions.
 
Please note that I consider "wants absolute power" as one of Viserys' motivations, not just as a means towards achieving the goal of "Greater Good for the Realm".
He is the rightful King and he knows it. He believes in absolute monarchy, he wants to be on top. He also thinks that him being on top is best for everyone else, but that's not his sole motivation for being on top.

He isn't a fan of the games of the court, but that isn't contradictory with a desire for power.
 
Part MMDCCCXI: A Bitter Gift
A Bitter Gift

Elsewhere Elsewhen

You dream, but the dream is not your own, not the past, not the future, not the gates of power opening to you, but a grey void of smoke and ash where fire is but a dream. Looking down you see that you are yourself floating amid the emptiness. The crown of Aegon rests upon your brow and the Weirwood staff is in your hands, but though it feels you are dream-walking, you have no power to shape the place you have found yourself in.

A figure approaches, a young girl with hair of unbound silver garbed in simple crimson robes. You know her face though you have never seen her in the flesh. She is Daenys the Dreamer, and yet not. Behind her eyes dwell the sorrows of a broken age, the will of a Lost Goddess. Syrax speaks: "Mighty have you grown, my descendant, and lesser am I than when Valyria stood, but still there is a gift I would give you as I did all of your line."

"What gift do you speak of, Elder One?" you ask cautiously. Even bound as she is from causing harm you are not fully certain you can trust one of the Fourteen, or perhaps it is simply that you resent being brought here powerless before her as a supplicant.

"The gift that has been ever a seer's to grant—knowledge," she replies, sounding almost regretful. "You divine your foes with every move in the game, you listen to the voices in the stone and you have seen the face of your sire's magic, but you do not see clearly the workings of your own hand, the dreams of your own mind, and that is a peril I cannot allow to endure a moment more..."

"How generous of you." The quip falls flat, a niggling fear awakening at the back of your mind.

"Call it a matter of self-preservation, then," she shrugs, the gesture vastly weary, giving the youthful form she wears an almost alien presence. "My fate is bound to yours, and you are imperiled by this blindness as you have not been by any other foe you might fight sword in hand. Should one less kindly disposed than I pierce the veils you have erected and confront you with these truths I fear you would break even as the deva you faced so brief a time ago, and for you there is no Greater Power, no Fount of Wisdom to hide behind, only emptiness above. So I offer the only aid I can, a mirror from which you cannot turn your gaze aside."

A shiver runs down your spine at these words as your mind begins to race, considering what she could mean. You find far more possibilities than you had expected, though each comes with a string of caveats, explanations, and excuses like hooks upon a steel line. "I..." you begin, not wholly sure what you should say. That you understand, that you will look into the matter yourself? You would not be here if either of those things were true.

"So you have not swallowed your own tail and made a circle of yourself," the Goddess notes. "Good, I do not have the leverage to untangle you if you were that far gone. Look..."

And so you see.

***​

An old woman, a slave crying under careless beatings of the overseer who sees any work she may do as insignificant besides 'encouraging others'. At last all her hopes and faith has been ground to dust until there is nothing and she wishes to show that to the world entire. The same woman staring into a smoky flame, chanting half understood words of ruin, calling on the powers of Abaddon to reap the world, debasing herself before darkness that she may at last have one more sweet taste of vengeance before oblivion. At least the Daemons offer that to one who had never thought herself of worth. There is commotion outside, inquisitors in raven masks who burst in and lash her hands behind her. One arm snaps.

"She's going to the tree anyway, she won't need arms for that," one says, not caring if she can hear him.

So she does, so she perishes upon Dark Sister's edge, her death counted more valuable than her life, one of scores, hundreds. You do not even remember the number. What use a painless death before an eternity of suffering?

She was a cultist,
the thought raises immediately to your mind.

"So certain are you that even the voices of angels could not reach her that you would rather they spent their times on thugs and cutpurses?" Syrax' voice is sharp as dragonsteel. "You used her because it was convenient, because your people hate her kind and would love you for wielding the blade."

"She consorted with fiends..." The defense is feeble, the counter obvious.

An image of Mereth rises from the mists, then curiously the sight of four bottles carefully labeled in the midst of an otherwise empty chamber, the devils you had chosen to spare, some because you might have use for them in the Flesh Forge, others because you wished to attempt recruitment, because you found their talents valuable.

As though summoned by the word Valyrian steel flashes, devils perish... their very souls consumed in part in the forging.

Just devils? A painful laugh tears its way from your throat. Dark may they be and bound to fel lords, but these are not the likes of Tor and Varys whom you consigned to oblivion because you feared they would return from mere death. You called them here to have their souls consumed in agony and is Hell any weaker for it? No, you had not been exacting justice no matter how many evils they had committed, you had been using them in a manner their own lords would not find so foreign, no more and no less.

Was it worth it?


"I would say yes, but then I do not stand in your place. You are not the boy who flew into Torturer's Deep with dread in his heart, King Viserys. You do not spill the blood of petty fiends and the fools who would call them for safety or for justice, but because it serves your purposes. Accept it or let it go, do not hide behind the image of yourself in the eyes of others." The words are like stones tied to your ankles, but before you can answer you feel a finger pressed to your lips.

"Not yet, not by far, I must show you all and this is difficult as I am now..."There is a thread of sympathy in her rasping voice, but no trace of judgement. For Syrax who has ruled over Valyria in the days of its dark glory it is not the deeds themselves that are troubling, but your refusal to face them. The choice is yours.

***​
The dream shifts, the vision changes....

Lannisport, the sun shines bright over carved wooden roofs, children are playing in the streets, the hum and bustle of the city just the same as you remember it. A crack rings out through the streets... then another and another. The unseen spores do their work well, Tens... hundreds of thousands of gold dragons in damages, but the living cost is far higher... oh here are as few direct deaths as you anticipated, hardly more than a handful, most people trying to shore up the damages against the inevitable, but many do not have the coin to repair. Merchants do not have the cold to cover the loss of warehouses full of lumber, clerks, longshoreman, carpenters, and more.

Misery spreads, and spreads like cracks in pottery, some are left homeless and others forced to subsist on less than before, whose families are driven into the streets... all are afraid. A mob gathers before the Guildhall of the Golden Shields. First come the curses, then the stones, the the Redcloacks move. They only strike with the butt of their spears... it is enough, eleven bodies like broken upon the cobbles, one of them a girl who cannot be any older than fifteen.

Tywin Lannister had ordered her death, but you had sown the seeds of the despair that lead her to this... her and hundreds upon hundreds of others that even a godless' mind cannot fully encapsulate the scope of it. Was it worth it, you wonder, and at once two answers rise in your mind—yes because it weakens the Lannisters, hastens your rise to power when you can fix all of this... and no, because some things cannot truly be mended as they were.

***​

The Goddess moves her hand... the image shifts again—fields of wheat, perfect, bountiful, deadly, grain-filled burning with black smoke, smallfolk driven from their lands with sword some resist... or try to. They die. Others take up brigandage, inflicting yet more death and ruin before they find their deaths, never knowing who had been the first architect of their woes. They take the aid given to them by the crown and smile as they thank the gods.

And you had thought being named Azor Ahai unjustly was ill fitting. How much worse to be called savior when you had concocted their woes?

Cold fingers reach around your shoulder like hands of iron. "Look. Choose. If you falter we all die."

***​

You have seen these bloody fields before, a stage upon which you acted out a horrid play, a demonstration in which soldiers died under your banners and those of the foe to prove the Legion's power, to quash rebellion ere it could arise you reasoned then, and the logic is no less compelling now that it had been in the moment, yet the truth remains that you brought the foe to fight your own men, the foe who killed some among their number to them... and they had trusted you with their lives and their honor.

Former slaves by the thousands lay dead now, yet their bodies would not be buried nor would they rest upon a pyre, but rise as Darkenbeasts to harry and slay your foes with poison and with the fire that had been denied them, boiled in an alchemist's cauldron... you see it done upon some distant battle ground, the faces of the foe constantly changing, now Ghiscari, Norvoshi , or Qohorik, then Westerosi, or even the strange arms of Yi Ti.

They all scream the same when the fire descends.

How many times have you stilled your hand against using fire against your foes? Was it all a lie? All just because you did not wish to see the deed done before your very eyes?

Yes,
a comforting lie. You are not certain if it was you who spoke or Syrax, nor does it matter. Those feelings lay forgotten when you signed papers with a king's hand, perhaps they should be forgotten. Perhaps you should forget the screams and think of the ultimate purpose, of peace and safety for the world, or else you should renounce them against any but the foes of all life, keep them to light the fires in the Long Night and not before.

***​

You see men and woman in the colors of the Legion walking into the Fungus Forge to take their augmentations to fight unimaginable horrors for no other reason than 'the King wills it', because they do not value their own lives as much as they do your words. This... this at least you can fix, you think desperately like a drowning man reaching for a line. You can have to impose some sort of mental testing to ensure they understand the risks, the changes, that they are truly willing

You look down at your hands in horror. How could you have been so blind for so long?

"And so you begin to understand..." the Goddess' voice is faint as she strains to reach further along the threads of time to show the workings of your hands and mind.

"More...?" You do not recognize your own voice.

"Subtler dangers," she sighs.

In the depths of the forge the corpse of Mammon rests not yet set into its place, in the planned fount of darkness. It would be safe as you can make it, it would be effective, but still it would be a timeless desecration. Would it truly be safe enough? Could anything justify such an act?

***​

The vision frays...

A thousand intrigues play out, a thousand betrayals large and small play out, words whispered to an inquisitorial agent, the intrigues of Myr and Lys... heads roll by another's hand though by your will. This time you cannot sigh and move on, there is nowhere to move on to only the ashen dream of Syrax. Were those betrayed worse than Baelor with whom you were just commiserating? Perhaps some but certainly not all, you know too much of men to think so.

Yet for all you knew of others how much you had failed to acknowledge about yourself, leaving naught but hollow sighs by the wayside. When was the last time principles had stayed your hand... Myrcella... she had presented an obvious choice, a simple one at least in hindsight, but with these others, weapons and tools of kingship nothing is clear, for to lay each aside would be a sacrifice, to limit them would be to limit yourself, your dreams.

What do you do?

[] Accept that which you had become and leave the sighs to others

[] Change something of what you had seen, the past is dead but the future is yet open?
-[] Limit the power of the inquisition to spy on your own citizenry (Write in)
-[] Further limit what you can use as sacrifice (Write in)
-[] Limit the use of Weapons of Mass Destruction (Write in)
-[] Put precautions in place in the case of human experimentation/flesh-forging (Write in)
-[] Do not Create the Mammon Machine
-[] Try to limit the grain crises you had set up (Write in)
-[] Be more careful in your intrigues about causing avoidable deaths (Write in)


OOC: I'll be honest, this should have been 2-3 update, but I do not think the thread could take morality discussions for that long.
 
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That's... a gross misrepresentation of the quoted line in particular and my position as a whole?

All I'm arguing is that Viserys should own his choices. He has multiple times sacrificed thousands of people for power, politics, expedience and to make a point. And he always had other options, could have made other choices, or simply stepped away and not taken an opportunity. This blood is not on his hands because it was necessary or unavoidable, but because Viserys stood before these people and said: "You will all die for my purposes and I'm fine with that."
I was just saying that in case you were being serious and actually wanted to go full devil IC. We're already recruiting a whole lot of Erinyes, after all...

I do agree with you. In Lys for example, he decided that the long-term institutional PR advantages were worth the slaughter, and so ordered several hundred legionnaires to their deaths. That's something he'll have to live with.
 
I was just saying that in case you were being serious and actually wanted to go full devil IC. We're already recruiting a whole lot of Erinyes, after all...

I do agree with you. In Lys for example, he decided that the long-term institutional PR advantages were worth the slaughter, and so ordered several hundred legionnaires to their deaths. That's something he'll have to live with.
And around 5,000 slaves from Lys army. Granted, some of those were mercenaries, but the vast majority was most likely slaves.

They were innocents that did nothing wrong.
Now they are Darkenbeasts, ready to carry bombs to kill even more people who just had the bad luck to get drafted.

That's also a thing he did. Gleefully.
 
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