A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

[Sqweaktoy]

He could easily give them a quicker death by not sacrificing them,

Click to shrink...

True, but as I'm sure your aware sacrificing them has a larger net benefit, both for Viserys and for the society he is building. It's been shown that he takes steps to minimize the suffering where he can. it's why I chose the specific comparison I did.

So having this regret seems very disingenuous to me after coming this far and having sacrificed this many people, with the intention of sacrificing even more cultists as they come out of the woodworks.

Click to shrink...

That's the part that confuses me. I'm not sure why being aware of the situation is disingenuous? The calculus involved hasn't changed, so of course he would continue. For all that it might be regrettable, it's still the best path forward available to him. I firmly believe that if we could somehow get the same level of boons for rehabilitating cultists we would switch as soon as is feasible. OOC we'd obviously be doing it because Boons+Minions is better than just boons, but IC Viserys may well rejoice at having found a better way.

 

[Duesal]

And this is a fundamental misunderstanding of what's being said here. The regret isn't for the person, not really. They've made themselves guilty. The regret is for the loss of potential and life that those choices of another brought about. And that that isn't going to stop anytime soon, either.

It's like how Viserys let that one cultist we saw in narrative pray a last time to her old faith, and find peace that way. It's not about the act itself. It's about the situation which makes it necessary. Feeling remorse for the loss of potential of a life isn't wrong, no matter how bad the life of the person who dies was. Because Viserys isn't mourning their life that was. He's mourning what it could have been.

Just like he does for Dany, on some level.

Click to shrink...

And at the end of the day it's easily the most annoying thing for me whenever we sacrifice something. Regarding that cultist, he allowed her to pray to whatever random deity she picked mainly as a fuck you to the daemons.

I wouldn't mind him going "yes, this is terrible, but I simply can't afford to ignore the power on offer" but I never really got the sense that he's actually wrestling with the decision? It's just a bit of regret that feels almost tacked on to me. You can justify a lot of extreme measures when you're starting down the barrel of an apocalypse, but I don't remember those justifications happening, ic, just a sense of regret.

Basically, I don't mind hypocrisy at all, I just would like it to be presented differently.

Maybe I'm just not remembering all the times he did wrestle with stuff.

Click to shrink...

No, you're mostly right. My complaint is that the regret tacked on at the end always felt cheap and hollow and always ignored.

 

[Snowfire]

Ah, yes. The tortured hero who is so cruelly forced by circumstances to do bad things for the greater good.

Viserys always had the choice. He made his choices.

And this martyr persona is disgusting.

Click to shrink...

Oh please. That's not what I'm saying at all, and you're smart enough to be able to tell. If you're going to engage, actually engage. I understand where you're coming from, I even agree with you in places. But I've had quite enough of this type of passive-aggressive bullshit.

Expressing in this manner doesn't add a damn thing to the debate, and it's actively counterproductive to a satisfying result.

And at the end of the day it's easily the most annoying thing for me whenever we sacrifice something. Regarding that cultist, he allowed her to pray to whatever random deity she picked mainly as a fuck you to the daemons.

Click to shrink...

The narrative framing (and actual spoken word of Viserys) in that section disagrees with this interpretation quite strenuously.

 

[Sqweaktoy]

Ah, yes. The tortured hero who is so cruelly forced by circumstances to do bad things for the greater good.

Viserys always had the choice. He made his choices.

And this martyr persona is disgusting.

Click to shrink...

Alright, I'm going to go ahead and (mostly) slide right on past the deeply insulting tone in this post and just address the substance. What about the things I've typed in the last couple posts seems to you like I think of Viserys as a heroic character? Was it the part where I specifically called out this motivation as being typically attached to villains? As for making his choices, that sentence is mostly meaningless, of course he made his choices (though if you want to get technical, we made his choices, and DP is stuck trying to write a character around them), so what?

EDIT: You know what? That last bit wasn't friendly or fair, I apologize if you caught it pre edit.
I think I need sleep, goodnight all.

 

[Goldfish]

Several people in the thread have recently brought up the issue of Viserys (and by extension the companions) being hypocritical, specifically in a way that is disengaging to the story. Going back over it I have to agree. I've been spending too long in Viserys' head rushing though the world-building and the actions and missing the subtler character moments that made him not so much evil (since that is not itself a problem, Malarys is a favorite after all) but un-selfaware .

I think this has to come to a head specifically in a way that will call for a vote so you guys can decide how you will react when faced with the consequences of said hypocrisy. The solution that comes to mind first is to have an enemy confront you with it but that has the issue that I would have to give your enemies knowledge of things you have worked very hard to keep secret. There is however one other person who could know what you are doing, is on your side and would like Viserys not to fall to the temptations of power and tyranny, Syrax. I'm thinking of doing a dream sequence to address wide-ranging subtle/pervasive issues.

What do you guys think?

Click to shrink...

I don't really think Viserys has been hypocritical to any significant degree. Although we have guided his character development over the years, he is still a product of his environment, first as a prince of Westeros, then an exile in Braavos, and everything that followed after. He has different cultural values than most of us, which come with different expectations for behaviors and interactions.

I believe that what some people are calling hypocrisy is merely their failure to understand a somewhat alien mindset, one which doesn't quite fit with the mores of their own upbringing. We aren't playing an American SI who woke up in Viserys' head, or a French, Scottish, German, Australian, etc. Viserys is from Planetos, and despite our best efforts, there are going to be consequences for that.

 

[Duesal]

That's the part that confuses me. I'm not sure why being aware of the situation is disingenuous? The calculus involved hasn't changed, so of course he would continue. For all that it might be regrettable, it's still the best path forward available to him. I firmly believe that if we could somehow get the same level of boons for rehabilitating cultists we would switch as soon as is feasible. OOC we'd obviously be doing it because Boons+Minions is better than just boons, but IC Viserys may well rejoice at having found a better way.

Click to shrink...

He's not aware of the situation. If he were, he would recognize precisely how hollow his regrets every time he sacrifices something are.

The narrative framing (and actual spoken word of Viserys) in that section disagrees with this interpretation quite strenuously.

Click to shrink...

Looking back:

Finally she drops the charm clattering against the roots and looks up at you blind in one eye from some festering sickness, but the other seeming at peace. Dark Sister ends her days in a single swift blow. Turning to the legionnaires you explain: "Half-an-hour's time is a small price to pay in order to deny a soul to the enemies of all life."

Click to shrink...

It was a fuck you to the daemons.

 

[spiritualatheist]

No, you're mostly right. My complaint is that the regret tacked on at the end always felt cheap and hollow and always ignored.

Click to shrink...

Yeah. It's always there, but nothing is ever done with it.

And this is a fundamental misunderstanding of what's being said here. The regret isn't for the person, not really. They've made themselves guilty. The regret is for the loss of potential and life that those choices of another brought about. And that that isn't going to stop anytime soon, either.

It's like how Viserys let that one cultist we saw in narrative pray a last time to her old faith, and find peace that way. It's not about the act itself. It's about the situation which makes it necessary. Feeling remorse for the loss of potential of a life isn't wrong, no matter how bad the life of the person who dies was. Because Viserys isn't mourning their life that was. He's mourning what it could have been.

Just like he does for Dany, on some level.

Click to shrink...

I guess? It isn't really how I've thought of his character, like, at all, but sure, I can see how you could come to that conclusion.

 

[Azel]

Oh please. That's not what I'm saying at all, and you're smart enough to be able to tell. If you're going to engage, actually engage. I understand where you're coming from, I even agree with you in places. But I've had quite enough of this type of passive-aggressive bullshit.

Expressing in this manner doesn't add a damn thing to the debate, and it's actively counterproductive to a satisfying result.

Click to shrink...

Then please accept that I'm displeased by the existence of this discussion since it marks the one time chance to toss out years of actions and redefine Viserys into the very direction I detest with a passion.

I currently regret all the work put into plans and speeches, for the simple fact that people will now most likely turn around and denounce their motives and intent, yet will continue to reap all the benefits of my work.

And this is insulting.

 

[spiritualatheist]

Ugh, why does sleep need to be a thing? I'll chime back in when it isn't 4 am.

 

[Snowfire]

Looking back:
It was a fuck you to the daemons.

Click to shrink...

You're missing the relevant context again. It's here:

To your surprise one of the erstwhile daemon worshipers had asked for a chance to pray before the end, not to the horrors she had dedicated her soul to, but the gods of her childhood, to which the other prisoner had responded by attempting to slay her with his chains, reason enough to be the first to the sacrificial knife, though that still leaves the question of the other. She deserves better, not freedom certainly, but...

Click to shrink...

Emphasis mine.

Then please accept that I'm displeased by the existence of this discussion since it marks the one time chance to toss out years of actions and redefine Viserys into the very direction I detest with a passion.

I currently regret all the work put into plans and speeches, for the simple fact that people will now most likely turn around and denounce their motives and intent, yet will continue to reap all the benefits of my work.

And this is insulting.

Click to shrink...

I do accept that. Hell, I'm not intending to reverse those trends that got us here. But this post actually engaged with the conversation. The last one really didn't.

So more like this please, if you can. And please don't just assume the direction of the thread before the vote is even open.

 

[Azel]

@Snowfire, I do see where the discussion is going though and how you justify this hypocrisy and hollow regrets.

Which, fine, do it.

But if Viserys is ultimate just a deluded fool that can't deal with the reality of what he is doing, then he doesn't deserve this power. This uncontested might that lets him decide over the fate of millions with just a few words. He deserves to die. Because that would mean that Lucan was right all along.

 

[DragonParadox]

Then please accept that I'm displeased by the existence of this discussion since it marks the one time chance to toss out years of actions and redefine Viserys into the very direction I detest with a passion.

I currently regret all the work put into plans and speeches, for the simple fact that people will now most likely turn around and denounce their motives and intent, yet will continue to reap all the benefits of my work.

And this is insulting.

Click to shrink...

That's not really my intent here. The point is to offer a moment of self reflection so that We can cover the things that have been running in the background , the moral refection I have skipped over for more actions. Viserys is not suddenly going to become a new person whatever you guys choose, though he might decide to do better in certain ways, or simply accept evils in others. It does not have to be an all or nothing proposition either. Characters can be fine with certain kinds of ruthlessness and reject others. This is not going to come down to

[] Yes All the evil

or

[] No, I am a perfect martyr who lost his way

 

[Goldfish]

Just to be clear, I don't see anything wrong with Viserys' level of self-awareness, and I don't think he's been hypocritical. Whatever form the vote ends up taking to influence that in the future, I'm going to support for whichever ones continues business as usual. While I'm not annoyed to the degree @Azel seems to be, I do think this entire line of reasoning is flawed and that some of ya'll don't understand just how divergent people's mindsets can be based on different cultural norms.

 

[Duesal]

You're missing the relevant context again. It's here:

Emphasis mine.

Click to shrink...

This ultimately boiled down to denying the daemons her soul, so not really seeing it. The fact that we felt sympathy for her was a major point of annoyance for me, though.

 

[Goldfish]

That's not really my intent here. The point is to offer a moment of self reflection so that We can cover the things that have been running in the background , the moral refection I have skipped over for more actions. Viserys is not suddenly going to become a new person whatever you guys choose, though he might decide to do better in certain ways, or simply accept evils in others. It does not have to be an all or nothing proposition either. Characters can be fine with certain kinds of ruthlessness and reject others. This is not going to come down to

[] Yes All the evil

or

[] No, I am a perfect martyr who lost his way

Click to shrink...

DP, I think you're falling into the same trap some of the others have. A lack of moral reflection on Viserys' part isn't a flaw in your writing or an overlooked aspect of the story. Look at Planetos, the people who live there, the societies they form and the cultures that have developed. In that light, Viserys is the next best thing to an enlightened saint. It's only when you use the lens of a 21st century Earthling to view his thoughts and actions that something might seem amiss.

 

[Snowfire]

@Azel you're conflating my desire to have Viserys face the nature of these regrets and process what they mean for him with a desire to rationalise them away. I don't want the latter at all. It's not healthy and it's not productive.

I can see how they might appear similar, the line is an easy one to blur. But they're not. And I do not intend to allow Viserys to do so. This isn't a 'cultural misunderstanding' issue. I get that what we've done is for the most part logical within the Planetos framework. But just because something is logical, doesn't mean it loses all emotional components. I'm in no way advocating for grand changes in policy, like Azel seems so disgusted at the idea of.

But there are many, many sides to hypocrisy. And those that don't rankle for some - and let me be clear, there's plenty that gets ignored entirely about Viserys' actions - will do so for others. Disagree with that if you like. But the least you can do is respect it.

 

[Snowfire]

DP, I think you're falling into the same trap some of the others have. A lack of moral reflection on Viserys' part isn't a flaw in your writing or an overlooked aspect of the story. Look at Planetos, the people who live there, the societies they form and the cultures that have developed. In that light, Viserys is the next best thing to an enlightened saint. It's only when you use the lens of a 21st century Earthling to view his thoughts and actions that something might seem amiss.

Click to shrink...

Um...no. No. Not even slightly. Please do show where and in what circumstance blood sacrifice of another human being is within the culturally accepted parlance of Planetos. I'll wait.

That was added to Viserys, through votes, as a means to acquire power. It's been dressed up in 'for the greater good' fallacy and the thread's eaten it up. But really? People voted to kill all those beings because we could. Because it was the easiest way to get what we wanted. That's it. Nothing more.

I don't want to justify that. I want Viserys to face up to the reasons for what he's done. And if that breaks him, so be it.

 

[Azel]

DP, I think you're falling into the same trap some of the others have. A lack of moral reflection on Viserys' part isn't a flaw in your writing or an overlooked aspect of the story. Look at Planetos, the people who live there, the societies they form and the cultures that have developed. In that light, Viserys is the next best thing to an enlightened saint. It's only when you use the lens of a 21st century Earthling to view his thoughts and actions that something might seem amiss.

Click to shrink...

No, the issue is that Viserys is either disingenuous when speaking these things or a hypocrite when he does these things anyway.

Like, for example, denouncing lords for spending the lives of their subjects like coin, then turning around and staging a battle between the Legion and a slave army from Lys as a PR maneuver.

 

[Goldfish]

Um...no. No. Not even slightly. Please do express where and in what circumstance blood sacrifice of another human being is within the culturally accepted parlance of Planetos. I'll wait.

That was added to Viserys, through votes, as a means to acquire power. It's been dressed up in 'for the greater good' fallacy and the thread's eaten that up. But really? People voted to kill all those beings because we could. Because it was the easiest way to get what we wanted. That's it. Nothing more.

Click to shrink...

Planetosi has a long history, right up through the current times, of making bloody spectacles or execution and punishment. It isn't a leap, barely more than a tiny shuffling step, to move from execution without purpose beyond ending a life, to execution that is actually useful for something.

I don't want to justify that. I want Viserys to face up to the reasons for what he's done. And if that breaks him, so be it.

Click to shrink...

You like to meddle with people in a way that makes me think you might have a background as a mental health professional. I might be wrong, but that's the impression I get. Viserys doesn't need to face up to anything, if he doesn't think he has done anything wrong from his own point of view.

 

[DragonParadox]

Planetosi has a long history, right up through the current times, of making bloody spectacles or execution and punishment. It isn't a leap, barely more than a tiny shuffling step, to move from execution without purpose beyond ending a life, to execution that is actually useful for something.

You like to meddle with people in a way that makes me think you might have a background as a mental health professional. I might be wrong, but that's the impression I get. Viserys doesn't need to face up to anything, if he doesn't think he has done anything wrong from his own point of view.

Click to shrink...

It bears remembering that Viserys' point of view is for you guys to decide.

 

[Snowfire]

You like to meddle with people in a way that makes me think you might have a background as a mental health professional. I might be wrong, but that's the impression I get. Viserys doesn't need to face up to anything, if he doesn't think he has done anything wrong from his own point of view.

Click to shrink...

I actually don't like to meddle at all irl. Because meddling like this is dangerous on a multitude of levels, and wanting someone to break is never the right way to go about it. But I have training in the field, yes.

Still, if that's the impression you get of mental health professionals, it makes me rather sad. That's not how it's meant to be. I only do stuff like this here because it's narrative, and even then I step carefully. Oaths matter.

 

[etincelle047]

DP, I think you're falling into the same trap some of the others have. A lack of moral reflection on Viserys' part isn't a flaw in your writing or an overlooked aspect of the story. Look at Planetos, the people who live there, the societies they form and the cultures that have developed. In that light, Viserys is the next best thing to an enlightened saint. It's only when you use the lens of a 21st century Earthling to view his thoughts and actions that something might seem amiss.

Click to shrink...

THIS, so much this.

And I'd go even further to say that people are judging him through the lens of 21st century safe civilian morality. I sincerely think that Vyseris would compare favorably to most of today's world leaders.

 

[egoo]

...I don't think I ever hid it, but I'm in agreement with Duesal, and others who are tired of Visers being squeamish/hypocritical.

It isn't realistic for him not to be, hypocrisy is a natural part of human's mind?
Sure, whatever.

But I don't like reading this quest with it present throughout so damn many choices.

I want Viserys to take a long, hard look, sigh heavily, and fffucking accept that he's an asshole that furthered his goals with evil acts on many an occasion.

Not to become capital-E Evil, but merely to stop being so annoyingly disingenuous with all of this.

 

[Goldfish]

No, the issue is that Viserys is either disingenuous when speaking these things or a hypocrite when he does these things anyway.

Like, for example, denouncing lords for spending the lives of their subjects like coin, then turning around and staging a battle between the Legion and a slave army from Lys as a PR maneuver.

Click to shrink...

It comes down to what the lives are being spent on, and what one expects to gain from the exchange. There was more than simple PR maneuvering going on with that decision. We've done a lot of stuff as part of grander schemes that doesn't necessarily seem above board without a bird's eye view to see it all.

Not the best rebuttal, I'm afraid, but I'm out of time and need to get ready for work.

 

[Azel]

@Goldfish, if Viserys does not have 21st century morals, why is he hung up on a few thousand people dying for his schemes?

He shouldn't care. That's literally how his world works.

Why these empty regrets then?