Because it's about dignity.

Not dignity as some abstract fundamental right to have pride, but rather, dignity as the concept of having the natural right of being treated as a human, regardless of circumstances.

The cultist might have been mad, she might have had the intention to commit evil and certainly deserved grave punishment. That said, by being dismissive of her pain, by ignoring her broken arm and already treating her like a walking corpse, our Inquisitors denied her dignity. They denied her humanity.

This act of dehumanization shows a critical crack within the institution of the Inquisition. If they make a habit of dehumanizing their targets, then they no longer give their actions the self-reflection and judgement that they desperately need. The Inquisition wields a tremendous amount of power. They can easily decree the life or death of many. As such, it is crucial that they are at every moment aware of their actions, and asking themselves - Is this truly necessary? Is this truly the right choice?

When you dehumanize your opponents, or by default put your goals above any means you might employ, then you do not do that. She becomes "just a cultist", not "just a human who coveted with demons". There is a huge difference between the two, because one is a caricature, and the other is a living being with emotions and sapience - the same kind of being you are. To kill a cultist is easy. To kill a human, even when the circumstances might justify it, is not.

If the Inquisition cannot be bothered to do something as simple as ensure that their prisoners do not have to suffer unduly, then why should we trust them with the power to spy and intervene in the life of Imperial citizens.


Now I understand your point here, but I have to say that when a random person who is debasing themselves before the Great Dark and sacrificing their own dignity for the amusement of the Abyss so that it will do what they want, I feel like that whole argument is lost as they no longer have that dignity. There is also the fact that when a cultist is in the middle of some spooky-ass chant that causes the paint to literally peel off the walls, it doesn't really engender feelings of comradery or basic human rights as no one wants to see themselves in such a dark mirror. Usually, you tend to try to interrupt said spooky chanting and end the threat before it reaches a certain point, don't go full Dumbledore on this man, you should never go full Dumbledore.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by egoo on May 2, 2019 at 1:52 PM, finished with 378 posts and 64 votes.

  • [X] Change something of what you had seen, the past is dead but the future is yet open?
    -[X] Limit the use of Weapons of Mass Destruction - No deployment of WMDs, tactical or otherwise, with a civilian population as the primary target.
    -[X] Write in: Silver of Justice - There is a truth in what you have been shown, but also a message of how you have chosen to make some useful and others food for the engine of Empire. With the summoning of the Preceptor Archons, and the rituals you have created to free Fiends and more from that which binds them inevitably to the planes which supply their power, might it not also be possible to see some who are driven to consort with such powers recovered from their folly instead of simply given unto the snake or tree?
    --[X] In addition, sit down with the heads of the Inquisition and bring up treatment of prisoners, along the following lines:
    ---[X] This act of dehumanization shows a critical crack within the institution of the Inquisition. If they make a habit of dehumanizing their targets, then they no longer give their actions the self-reflection and judgement that they desperately need. The Inquisition wields a tremendous amount of power. They can easily decree the life or death of many. As such, it is crucial that they are at every moment aware of their actions, and asking themselves - Is this truly necessary? Is this truly the right choice?
    ---[X] When you dehumanize your opponents, or by default put your goals above any means you might employ, then you do not do that. She becomes "just a cultist", not "just a human who coveted with demons". There is a huge difference between the two, because one is a caricature, and the other is a living being with emotions and sapience - the same kind of being you are. To kill a cultist is easy. To kill a human, even when the circumstances might justify it, is not.
    ---[X] If the Inquisition cannot be bothered to do something as simple as ensure that their prisoners do not have to suffer unduly, then why should we trust them with the power to spy and intervene in the life of Imperial citizens?
    [X] Accept that which you had become and leave the sighs to others
    [X] Abstain
    [X] Change something of what you had seen, the past is dead but the future is yet open?
    -[X] Limit the use of Weapons of Mass Destruction - Weapons such that you deployed against Lannisport require foes against which they are the only option. Limit use of WMDs to use against the White Walkers, other truly existential threats to Planetos itself, and true peer powers.
    -[X] Write in: Silver of Justice - There is a truth in what you have been shown, but also a message of how you have chosen to make some useful and others food for the engine of Empire. With the summoning of the Preceptor Archons, and the rituals you have created to free Fiends and more from that which binds them inevitably to the planes which supply their power, might it not also be possible to see some who are driven to consort with such powers recovered from their folly instead of simply given unto the snake or tree?
    --[X] In addition, sit down with the heads of the Inquisition and bring up treatment of prisoners, along the following lines:
    ---[X] This act of dehumanization shows a critical crack within the institution of the Inquisition. If they make a habit of dehumanizing their targets, then they no longer give their actions the self-reflection and judgement that they desperately need. The Inquisition wields a tremendous amount of power. They can easily decree the life or death of many. As such, it is crucial that they are at every moment aware of their actions, and asking themselves - Is this truly necessary? Is this truly the right choice?
    ---[X] When you dehumanize your opponents, or by default put your goals above any means you might employ, then you do not do that. She becomes "just a cultist", not "just a human who coveted with demons". There is a huge difference between the two, because one is a caricature, and the other is a living being with emotions and sapience - the same kind of being you are. To kill a cultist is easy. To kill a human, even when the circumstances might justify it, is not.
    ---[X] If the Inquisition cannot be bothered to do something as simple as ensure that their prisoners do not have to suffer unduly, then why should we trust them with the power to spy and intervene in the life of Imperial citizens?
 
I'll be completely honest, touching upon Inquisition in any way feels incredibly weird and jarring right now, without Azel around.
Like we're doing stuff behind his back, or something :confused:
 
Good then we are agreed then that some cannot be saved and will not be offered a chance at redemption. Why then are you risking the population when we could make certain that no former cultists can do what they wish in the population?
Because just because some cultists can be said to be beyond redemption, don't mean all cultists are beyond redemption, we can at least try to sort them into hopeless and not hopeless causes.
 
I'll be completely honest, touching upon Inquisition in any way feels incredibly weird and jarring right now, without Azel around.
Like we're doing stuff behind his back, or something :confused:

The Inquisition section of the vote is formative. Anything that comes from it will have a direction, but it probably won't take place for a while. Consider it a Minor Action this month, if that makes sense?
Adhoc vote count started by Snowfire on May 2, 2019 at 1:57 PM, finished with 384 posts and 64 votes.
 
Interlude CDLV: The Beginnings of Forgiveness
The Beginnings of Forgiveness

Tenth Day of the Ninth Month 293 AC

There was no one around to feel the sudden gust of cold air within the narrow street by the Arl's Bakery in the Saltpans, no one to see the two strange travelers who appeared by sorcery, one of a kindred unknown to these lands, a Djinn Lord of Armun Kelisk bedecked in silk and jewels, the other a daughter of this place who had walked dark roads indeed, garbed in simple wool dyed in the light green of summertime as though in defiance of her nature. "Thank you for bringing me here, Jafir," Rina said softly to her companion. "I'll make up for the lost hours, I promise..."

The Djinn raised a hand, forestalling her words: "Peace, young one. Our work is important, but not so important that we cannot take a few hours pause for reasons less important than this."

"It remains to be seen if this is important or merely vastly foolish," the winter-touched mage answered, as much to herself as to him. "King Viserys and the Princess are much better at talking through things than I am..." She had to do this on her own, Rina had realized. Otherwise she would never know if her family truly accepted her for who and what she was now or if they had simply been swept up by the King's words, like swimmers swept out by the tides.

She bid farewell to the Djinn and turned to the path to the keep, still hesitating upon that first step. Abruptly she took a right and ended up in the front of the bakery, bought two sweet-rolls and ate them on the spot as she had long fantasized as a girl. They tasted just as good as she remembered.

So fortified against her fears, Rina made her way to the gates of the keep, more of a pair of overgrown towers really, the town of Saltpans itself was limited in where it could grow so it mostly went up from the kitchens and armsmen's barracks on the lowest level all the way to her father's study on the highest. As she looked up at the tower Rina was more than a little envious of those boots of far travel the Companions... the other Companions wore. Rina had bad memories about climbing those stairs...

The armsmen parted, just as her mother's letter had said they would, but they did not welcome her, men she had known since girlhood not daring to meet her eyes, though her gaze was veiled in glamour and not the unearthly blue of winter's touch for all a chill wind still dogged her steps.

From above the sounds of boyish quarreling could be heard, "Dragons can't talk... you're stupid!" one said.

"No, you're stupid! It was a magic dragon, and magic can do anything at all!"

Both of them almost collided with Rina before offering still bows at her unexpected presence. The young woman could see her bothers in them... and her father. "What do you seek here, my lady? the elder asked, trying to hide childish curiosity behind hurried manners.

"I'm..." she had been about to say 'no one important', but the words stuck in her throat. She had been no one for far too long in the Silent Sisters, and she would not go back to it now. "I'm here to talk to your lord grandfather and lady grandmother. They will tell you all you need to know."

Looking disappointed but too well trained to argue the two boys passed her by, leaving Rina to face the heavy oaken door that had figured to much in her nightmares... it was surprisingly easy to push aside.

Rather than look directly to her father she cast arcane silence upon the door just in case her nephews were tempted to eavesdrop.

"So it's true, you are a witch." Her father's voice had not changed much since she had last heard it, though the tone was odd, more gruff than the anger she had expected whatever her mother's assurances.

"Witch is a bit too general a term, but it will do." She paused and nervously tried for a jest. "It's a little like calling a knight a stabbing horse-riding person. It gets the basics across but not the nuance."

"A knight of magic... I heard about what the Dragon is doing from.... well, it doesn't matter now, does it? How has he been treating you?"

Rina looked at her father, still grey-haired and broad-shouldered, still with the same frown lines around his mouth, as though he had grown a second head. 'How was he treating her'? He asked that after where he had sent her and how he had done it? "Better than the Silent Sisters," she answered in spite of herself.

Ser Quincy Cox met his daughter's icy gaze without flinching. "There weren't any dragons to send you to before."

It wasn't an apology, not really, but it was still far more than Rina had ever expected to hear from her father. For now it was enough.

OOC: This is a bit of an odd one, Rina felt she had to do his alone, but it turned out OK because Lady Cox.
 
Last edited:
Good then we are agreed then that some cannot be saved and will not be offered a chance at redemption. Why then are you risking the population when we could make certain that no former cultists can do what they wish in the population?

Pretty much this:

Because just because some cultists can be said to be beyond redemption, don't mean all cultists are beyond redemption, we can at least try to sort them into hopeless and not hopeless causes.

Tfw I'm flat-quoting tarrangar to reply to someone in complete seriousness :confused:
No offence meant here man, it just doesn't really happen often.
 
So while this is all happening can we agree that win or lose a vote like this need not happen again? I personally would greatly prefer if one of these votes were completely unnecessary. Let this be the end of the morality debate. Let this be the final chapter and go forward and never do this again. Can we all agree on that?
Actually, this sort of huge summation of questionable deeds which we've dressed up in rationalizations should not happen again due the fact that it only got this bad because we've been ignoring it.

Morality should not die, or be decided forever in a single vote or moment.

It's evolving and ever present. People have debated morality since people started debating things, and we absolutely shouldn't have this be "the one morality episode, now back to your scheduled program".
Now I understand your point here, but I have to say that when a random person who is debasing themselves before the Great Dark and sacrificing their own dignity for the amusement of the Abyss so that it will do what they want, I feel like that whole argument is lost as they no longer have that dignity. There is also the fact that when a cultist is in the middle of some spooky-ass chant that causes the paint to literally peel off the walls, it doesn't really engender feelings of comradery or basic human rights as no one wants to see themselves in such a dark mirror. Usually, you tend to try to interrupt said spooky chanting and end the threat before it reaches a certain point, don't go full Dumbledore on this man, you should never go full Dumbledore.
That's why I didn't quote the dignity part, as it's a matter of personal opinion.

What I quoted and told Snowie to add is how the point of view of completely de-humanizing their foes is toxic to our forces.

Because they aren't grunts, they in fact hold a great deal of power. These aren't "don't think, just shoot" troops. These are the people we are trusting to do the thinking on our behalf.
 
Anything that comes from it will have a direction, but it probably won't take place for a while. Consider it a Minor Action this month, if that makes sense?
Then please directly phrase it so, or something.
It'd be awkward to immediately take up a meeting the moment Viserys wakes up.

As a side not, this plan of yours likely makes all of the cultists we were planning to capture next month unviable as targets.
Brace for @Duesal's "Reeeeee!" In 3... 2... 1...
 
The Beginnings of Forgiveness

Tenth Day of the Ninth Month 293 AC

There was no one to feel the sudden gust of cold air in the narrow street by the Arl's bakery in Saltans, no one to see the two strange travelers who appeared by sorcery, one of a kindred unknown to these lands, a Djinn Lord of Armun Kelisk bedecked in silk and jewels,the other a daughter of this place who had walked dark roads indeed, garbed in simple wool dyed in the light green of summertime as though in defiance of her nature. "Thank you for bringing me here Jafir," Rina said softly to her companion. "I'll made up for the lost hours I promise..."

The Djinn raised a hand , forestalling her words: "Peace, young one, our work is important, but not so important that we cannot take a few hours pause and for reasons less important than this."

"It remains to be seen if this is important or merely vastly foolish," the winter-touched mage answered, as much to herself as to him. "King Viserys and the Princess are much better at talking though things than I am..." She had to do this on her own, Rina had realized. Otherwise she would never know if her family truly accepted her for who and what she was now of if they had simply been swept up by the king's words, swimmers swept out by the tides.

She bid farewell to the Djinn an turned to the path to the keep still hesitating upon that first step. Abruptly she took a right and ended up in the front of the bakery, bought two sweet-rolls and ate them on the spot as she had long fantasized as a girl. They tasted just as good as she remembered.

So fortified against her fears Rina made her way to the gates of the keep, more of a pair of overgrown towers really, the town of Saltpans itself limited where it could grow so it mostly went up from the kitchens and armsmen's barracks on the lowest level all the way to her father's study on the highest. As she looked up at the tower Rina was more than a little envious of those boots of far travel the Companions... the other Companions wore. Rina had bad memories about climbing those stars...

The armsmen parted, just as her mother's letter had said but they did not welcome her, men she had known since girlhood drew not daring to meet her eyes, though her gaze as veiled in glamor and not the unearthly blue of winter's touch for a chill wind still dogged her steps.

From above the sounds of boyish quarreling could be heard "Dragons can't talk... your are stupid!" one said

"No, you are stupid, it was a magic dragon and magic can do anything at all!"

Both of them almost collided with Rina before offering still bows at her unexpected presence. The young woman could see her bothers in them... and her father. "What do you seek here my lady? the elder asked, trying to hide childish curiosity behind hurried manners.

"I'm..." she had been about to say 'no one important', but the words stuck in her throat. She had been no one for far too long in the Silent Sisters, and he would not go back to it now. "I'm here to talk to your lord grandfather and lady grandmother. They will tell you all you need to know."

Looking disappointed but too well trained to argue the two boys passed her by, leaving Rina to face the heavy oaken door that had figured to much in her nightmares... it was surprisingly easy to push aside.

Rather than look directly to he father she cast arcane silence upon the door just in case her nephews where tempted to eavesdrop.

"So it's true you are a witch," her faher's voice had not changed much since he had last heard it, though the tone was odd, more gruff than the anger she had expected whatever her mother;s assurances.

"Witch is a bit too general a term but it will do," she paused and nervously tried for a jest. "It's a little like calling a knight stabbing horse-riding person, it gets the basics across but not the nuance."

"A knight of magic... I heard about what the dragon is doing from.... well it doesn't matter now does it? How has he been treating you?"

Rina looked a her father, still grey-haired and broad shouldered, still with the same frown lines around his mouth, as though he had grown a second head. How was he treating her? He asked that after where he had sent her and how he had done it? "Better than the Silent Sisters," she answered in spite of herself.

Ser Quincy Cox met his daughter's icy gaze without flinching. "There weren't any dragons to send you to before."

It wasn't an apology, not really, but it was still far more than Rina had ever expected to her from her father. For now it was enough

OOC: This is a bit of an odd one, Rina felt she had to do his alone, but it turned out OK because Lady Cox practically converted her husband after the quasi-religious experience meeting Viserys was for her.

ALL OF MY FUCKING YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ahem.

I'm just going to be over here. The strange, high-pitched happy sound currently echoing around the room is just an illusion.

Yes.

This was everything I wanted it to be and more. Thank you.
 
I'm sorry to tell you this, but as long as some influential members of the community hold everyone who doesn't subscribe to thier exact moral framework in open, sneering contempt, the morality debate can never die.

The main issue is both sides tending to treat this as a bit of an all-or-nothing thing, and then distorting the issue to be "if i don't make a stand, the other side will 'win', forever" which is counter productive and patently false. We have course corrected before, and far more organically than this.
 
@DragonParadox, seriously? You edited out the "quasi-religious experience of meeting Viserys" bit right as I was trying to quote it!
I liked it quite a lot. It's hard to comment on his messiah complex when things like that happen :D
It did really make him feel like a Mythic character though. A legend more than a man.
 
The Inquisition section of the vote is formative. Anything that comes from it will have a direction, but it probably won't take place for a while. Consider it a Minor Action this month, if that makes sense?
It does. But this is still a mistake. We were going to acknowledge that Viserys wasn't a white knight and accept his past actions without letting it bother us in the future.
Your response is to make a few minute changes so that the players can reassure themselves that no they are not "the baddies", and Viserys can keep lying to himself.
One step to the left, two steps back.
 
But to me, this always felt like a good way to portray the heated discussions in the thread, while still respecting the ultimate outcomes of the votes and furthering Viserys' characterization as someone who makes hard choices for what he sees as the greater good.
This is something I do like about the writing of those dilemmas, even if they don't make a lot of sense for Viserys to have himself.
So then we have an institution capable of redeeming any cultist we bring them? Isn't that...suspicious? I know if you want to handwave it, then Dragonparadox can do so, but now it's an option we always will have to contend with.
Dude, just because it works doesn't mean it has a guaranteed success rate.
 
It does. But this is still a mistake. We were going to acknowledge that Viserys wasn't a white knight and accept his past actions without letting it bother us in the future.
Your response is to make a few minute changes so that the players can reassure themselves that no they are not "the baddies", and Viserys can keep lying to himself.
One step to the left, two steps back.
@DragonParadox? Please acknowledge this.
 
Then please directly phrase it so, or something.
It'd be awkward to immediately take up a meeting the moment Viserys wakes up.

As a side not, this plan of yours likely makes all of the cultists we were planning to capture next month unviable as targets.
Brace for @Duesal's "Reeeeee!" In 3... 2... 1...
The second this vote happened I've been resigned.

Make no mistake, I am not happy about this, but I am resigned.
 
That's why I didn't quote the dignity part, as it's a matter of personal opinion.

What I quoted and told Snowie to add is how the point of view of completely de-humanizing their foes is toxic to our forces.

Because they aren't grunts, they in fact hold a great deal of power. These aren't "don't think, just shoot" troops. These are the people we are trusting to do the thinking on our behalf.
I do agree on this regard in a general sense but I feel the example given was poor. I really do not care if they'll break an arm in the process of making an arrest of what is probably a pretty dangerous cultist who was caught in the act (not anymore than I care about the specifics of her tragic backstory, what with it being shared with thousands of innocent people across our realm). But they need to keep in mind that not everyone they catch will be guilty before the enemy starts framing people in earnest.

They also shouldn't hurt them for it's own sake since that is sloppy and will inevitably lead to fuck ups.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top