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Almost, they'd use a fake Darkenbeast (a warbeast we created in the Mossforge in Lys for our Legion) and they'd only attack some group of Septons, not the whole conclave, as far as I remember, but it's the general gist of the plan.
A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover
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Okay drakenbeast that was stolen from us but the gist of it is correct. The plan with the drakenbeast is to make people afraid of our rule and turn Westeros into a fanatical war where the faith and Westeros is convinced that we will kill them all. The conclave itself is about the nature of magic, fey and how they relate to the Faith of the Seven.
Edit: Also this will be the best time to find out what the Father, Mother and the rest of the Seven want with magic, with us and with this war. We finally get a motive to the incompetence...hopefully.
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Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
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The motive is fear, hypocrisy and greed. The Andals' religion is founded upon fear and blood and avarice.
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While I am tempted to dismiss that idea as uncalled for bloodlust, I would like to point out the Old Gods are still pretty prickly about that whole "Humble the Seven" Thing. I think there's a reasonable argument to be made for ruining this conclave and blaming it on...someone. Demons if nothing else fits the bill. That said, I'm sure there's a reason we don't want to do that, I just can't think of it right now.
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Now let's be sensible. They might be reasonable. After Mel we really can't be sure if they can or can't be reasoned with. I am not saying let's bend our backs over to accommodate them but let's listen, see what they have to say.
Edit: And if we don't like it then humility is a pie that we can serve. Will serve anyway but still.
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Because shattering their faith into a multiple denominations is worth more than the short term satisfaction of torching their conclave to the ground? That is a good reason right?
dpara
slightly confused ascendant
I've pretty much stopped participating, ..exhaustion.
But I think one of the fundamental issues throughout the quest has been optimizing the game vs optimizing for drama. In the sense that the optimal moves for winning the game do not make for the most interesting story.
e.g. crafting, at the beginning of the quest we didn't have crafting and the magic items were near unique (and admittedly sometimes kinda useless^^). But we found Lya and built her to remove that restriction, clearly a game optimal move. But with how off I think the D&D crafting rules are, this is not something that has ever increased my immersion.
By now I just feel that the gameplay/discussion has kinda turned into EVE Online light and expect the main drama eruptions from "how dare this obstacle slow the rate of acquisition".
But for that matter I loved that discussion with the spy just now, seeing Viserys being the "mysterious helpful stranger", is just something I find really fun "I'm the questgiver now!"/ be a semi mentor.
I'm also pretty stoked in watching the growing pile of gambits that is Oldtown.
Will it be "fuck that Dragontime, everybody dies" or "1000 divinations later, 3 steps to Victory.".
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We already got a motive to their incompetence thanks to Bloodraven.
So originally they weren't magic haters. They were just deities who were terrified of dragonlords from Valyria, so they told their worshippers to go on a crusade to claim promised lands across the Narrow Sea--Westeros. They did this because they'd have a better chance of success as aspiring conquerers rather than dispirited fleeing refugees.
Basically, they were totally willing to fuck over the Old Gods, the Children of the Forest, and the First Men. Their justification for the initial ravaging of the Vale and the subsequent conquest and assimilation of every other kingdom in Westeros save for the North was a combination of magic and blood sacrifice (the latter of which is squarely against one of their core tenets). Then as the worshippers carried out the will of the Seven, this evolved into them thinking ALL magic was bad.
And we know from Yss that there are two things that feed divinity -- worship, and sacrifice. The Seven obviously don't take sacrifice, and sacrifice is what makes a god more like themselves, whatever that happens to be at the time. No, they relied solely on worship, and that shapes them to what their worshippers viewed them as. That appears to be intolerant assholes against all magic that isn't their own.
There could be some hope with the Maiden, but I'm not going to hope for too much.
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We should propably put the distilled info on howgods work on the frontpage.
Or I'll just bookmark the chapter where Yss explains it, if I can find it again.
I think there are some details that get easily messed up when working from memory.
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Tldr they played themselves.
Informational post in beta.
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Well that's gonna be a hard sell because half our kingdom runs on both things that the Seven hate. Well negotiations will be a bitch when we need to deal with them
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
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My problem is if I am not mistaken, we kind of have to kill all these people to satiate the old gods bloodlust, right? Any point in shattering them before doing it? To clarify I'm more than happy to intrigue on this stuff for literal months, I'm just wondering if there's an actual point to it.
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
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They mostly just want Champions. In place of hunting down Andal bloodlines, they also accept them losing their lands to Old Gods worshiping lines, or even conversion of Andal lines to Old Gods worship (plays on the humiliation of the Seven angle even more).
Fact of the matter is the main component to laying this rivalry to rest will basically hinge upon the Seven being splintered into many different denominations and disunity, not genocide. Basically this is because, even though the Andals kind of did plenty of that to the First Men, the First Men who want vengeance also have to compromise in reverse with the First Men and Children who want to prepare for Winter.
Can't prepare when you have enemies fighting for survival at your back.
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We don't.
We have to kill some people, but even then the OGs value people of old Andal-lines, like the Corbrays we'll kill anyway, highly.
Also converting people helps calm them, and sacrificing angels like Baelor.
On the large scale, making them a splittered mess of sects and groups is already quite humiliating.
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What Artemis said. One of our schemes is to convince Grafton to sacrifice Corbray to the Old Gods. That'll do a lot to appease their anger. A willing conversion and sacrifice at the same time.
The Politics of the Faith and the Conclave of Oldtown
The Politics of the Faith and the Conclave of Oldtown
Fundamental Divisions: The Faith of the Seven is broadly divided into four formal tiers of authority, only three of which have actual theological weight. At the very bottom of the pyramid are the simple septons, humble shepherds of their flock whose principal task is igniting and maintaining the flame of Faith. This can range from a begging brother to a septon with a high position in the court of a lord or king. Septon Barth himself, who was Hand of the King for Jaehaerys the Conciliator and one of the most influential legal and administrative minds in the history of an united Westeros, was a 'simple septon'. The other steps in the ladder are the Most Devout, a body originally stemming from the Seven Hills of Andalos and the Seven Disciples of Hugor, later expanded to forty-nine, and finally the High Septon or Septa who surrenders even their given name to the calling and the grace of the Seven, the better to hear their words.
Elders, the Silent Power: As the Faith became more formal and bound up in the institutions of Westerosi lordship, however, it became clear that there had to exist ranks of Godsworn holding sway over their brethren and the assets of the Faith in a particular region without having their time dedicated to solemn contemplation. If the King of the Vale was battling the King of the Riverlands it would be awkward for both of them to be directly under the same religious authority, much less one in far-off Oldtown. This is how the institution of Elder came to be. Technically holding no special virtue beyond the wisdom of age, Elders are selected by vote (or more often by acclamation) from the prominent Godsworn of a particular region. The Elder of the Vale is addressed by the same title as say that of the Fingers, but the latter answers to the former nonetheless. Generally speaking divisions of authority follow those of temporal power, though in more volatile regions like the Riverlands mismatches are more common and often cause for tensions. Famously the lands of the Brackens and Blackwoods fall under the same 'count level' Elder, as the High Septon who ruled seven-hundred years ago ruled that they would not need more seeing as the Blackwoods are heathens.
The Most Devout: The forty-nine men and woman known as the Most Devout are chosen by the High Septon, or according to accepted canon, by the voice of the Seven-Who-Are-One whispering in his ear. Traditionally they are proposed by the most influential Elders, but particularly inspired High Septons can and have filled the positions as the Seven guided them, or in a less charitable interpretation as they wished to favor those close to them. The Most Devout are also the ones who elect the new High Septon, often from among themselves. This vote must be unanimous in the end, though in practice it is a matter of the candidate with the fewest votes falling off until only one is left who is then unanimously acclaimed.
Most Devout by Region:
- Westerlands: 11
- Reach: 9
- Vale: 8
- Stormlands: 6
- Riverlands: 6
- Crownlands: 5
- Dorne: 3
- North: 1
- Iron Islands: 0
Silent Sisters: Technically a Contemplative Order, for all their interact with the secular world more than most, the Silent Sisters are a exception in many regards. Dealing as they do with the work of the Stranger, veiled against the eyes of the world just as their lips are sealed in matters of the living, the Silent Sisters have no voice in matters of the Faith.
The Conclave of Oldtown:
Precedent and Purpose: Conclaves are gatherings of Elders called in time of great strife and change to decide upon matters of doctrine. The last Conclave called was the one in 50 AC which supported the Doctrine of Exceptionalism, the notion that House Targaryen are not to be bound by the Seven's ban against incest.
Right to Speak: Technically even a ordinary septon or septa can speak in the Conclave since an Elder is an administrative rank, but they must be recognized by no less then three Elders 'so as not to unduly delay the proceedings'.
Organization and Controversy: They are ordinarily called by the High Septon. However Septon Kyle, the Most Devout who serves in the Starry Sept and former Elder of the Reach, has presented the notion that it any 'sufficiently learned and pious septon can act when the High Septon is otherwise occupied.' As Elders from the Reach, the Vale, and the Crownlands have decided to attend together with many of the Most Devout the more skeptical Westerlanders and Stormlanders have reluctantly decided to attend also. The Northerners kept their own council, some say because of the ancient enmity between House Manderly and House Tyrell, while only a smartening of Riverlanders chose to attend. The High Septon has so far not formally acknowledged the gathering's legitimacy, though neither had he stopped the Most Devout and Elders loyal to him from attending.
The Actors and Their Positions:
Most Devout Septon Kyle (Tyrell loyalist): Wishes to make trading and alliances with the Fey theologically acceptable, some suspect he will go so far as to push for marriage with the Fey to be acceptable, likely to use exceptionalism as a starting point for his arguments.
Most Devout Ollidor (Traditionalist/Lannister loyalist): One of the few Most Devout of dubious piety the current High Septon has not been able to deal with because of his ties to the Lannisters and thus the Crown, he is for all intents and purposes the voice of Tywin Lannister at the Conclave.
Most Devout Septa Aglantine (High Septon's Loyalist): A stern and pious woman Aglantine is nonetheless known for championing the cause of the poor and dispossessed, and a reluctant admirer of Danelle called by some the Maiden's Chosen for her good works, if not her choice in companions.
Elder Septa Maer (Elder of the Riverlands): Known for her unflinching piety and disdain for magic, Maer was once made common cause with her brothers and sisters in the Vale, though the constant unchecked compromises with magic by the Hand have left her ever more bitter and isolated. Many see her presence here as mere 'heckling,' though wiser heads conclude that should the supporters of reform push too hard her fiery rhetoric is likely to gain her a great deal of support.
Brother Lucan: Speaking with the voice of the Father himself, Lucan is for many of the septons present a man of paradoxes, gathering mages to train yet preaching against magic. Lucan's sheer presence and obvious blessings are nonetheless all but certain to gather support at the Conclave, and perhaps most worryingly for the rest of the participants on the streets of Oldtown.
OOC: As I was writing this I realized just how little there is either in this quest or in canon about the organization of the Faith. I really should have presented the first part of this update a long time ago.
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My participation is always litmited partially by my work schedule and partially by the fact that things often proceed in a way I find interesting or even optimal without any direct input from me anyway, so trying to speak up just to spout off an 'I agree' for the sake of participation feels extraneous.
I for one enjoyed that Old Town is it's own place with it's own shit going on. This situation is heading for an absolute trainwreck by it's very nature, but we've been averting trainwrecks so long by this point that even if we fail to avert this one entirely it'll make for an interesting twist.
That said, I did have one piece of critique DP, but you addressed it before I got caught up so it's all good. I felt a little lost as to what the situation with the conclave was, making it hard to determine what should be the main goal of plans, but the informational post will likely help that a lot.
I for one enjoyed that Old Town is it's own place with it's own shit going on. This situation is heading for an absolute trainwreck by it's very nature, but we've been averting trainwrecks so long by this point that even if we fail to avert this one entirely it'll make for an interesting twist.
That said, I did have one piece of critique DP, but you addressed it before I got caught up so it's all good. I felt a little lost as to what the situation with the conclave was, making it hard to determine what should be the main goal of plans, but the informational post will likely help that a lot.
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@DragonParadox is Danielle not participating in the debates?
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@DragonParadox, can we get short descriptions on each of the Seven, what they command, what they hate, etc?