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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Walliseatscheese said:
Is this item worth running a production line for military purposes? I can imagine several sources of fire damage that might benefit from tactical use of this item.
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Not a full production line in our industrial facility. Our regular Alchemical production, however, is being continued in order to provide more specialized items for which a full facility would be excessive. We can produce 176 doses of Incendiary Catalyst per week in this manner.
 
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Algalon said:
It will assuage the fears of smallfolk and nobility alike, since if Viserys builds a magnificent Sept that surpasses the Starry Sept and Baelor's, then obviously he must be a very pious king. This in turn makes the conquest and stabilization of Westeros easier since people won't join the opposition out of fear of a Demon Dragon and the smallfolk won't be as eager to listen to the Zealots who advocate the return of the Faith Militant.
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Okay So there is a lot that I do not like about your plan. But I will focus on these two. I, personally, want nothing to do with Baelors legacy. Frankly I want to destroy it. Hell when the time comes I want to grow the biggest weirwood possible in the Great sept of Baelor to send a message. Also fuck being pious. Are we going to do the same and build Rhllorites, a god who enslaves people, a dazzling temple? The people already think we are the most unpious man alive what with our magic and our tree gods. What I am counting on is education, not building a sept. I will push for education on the planes, the nature of gods over a gaudy sept that draws any distinction between us and the Baelor the "Blessed".

Algalon said:
As the whole war between the Faith Militant and House Targaryen showed, it was the pen stroke which killed the Faith Militant, and not the sword. Maegor violently persecuted the Faith which led to nowhere throughout his entire live, while Jahaerys ended them in a single pen stroke while also enshrining the King on the Iron into the Faith as the "Protector of the Faith", and making it one of the King's official titles.
Once we take Westeros, we will have to address the issue. If we do nothing, we will face religious unrest as Septons will simply point towards Viserys complete absence of piety or respect for the Faith, towards his magic, towards all the beings and gods he consorts with. Meanwhile, our supporters will have to remain silent because they cannot argue on theological grounds. "Letting them die" will not be possible because as long we do not address the Faith we will simply be an infidel, to both smallfolk and nobles alike, which will continue to invite unrest. And every time we stomp down on that, as you say, we will merely create martyrs.
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We are already an infidel and frankly if they want to die let them. We can write a peace after we have throughly kicked their asses. They will already point to our magic, to the gods we court and have aligned ourselves with and to the lack of respect for the faith. Viserys has no respect for the faith. Next you will suggest we give up magic in order to appease the small folk. We are making an empire that spans the world and the faith can either come along or fade away. We can go the way of Maegor and Jaehaerys by both crushing the faith and bringing it to heel. It wasn't just because of diplomacy the the faith bent. It was because of Fire and Blood
 
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Walliseatscheese said:
Considering that Yss was willing to throw down with an Avatar of Mammon for our soul because we've done so much for him, weighing the scales so heavily in our favor, I'd say it would need to be something pretty damn tempting for him to screw us over.

We basically saved him from True Death and are restoring him to Major Diety-hood. When our people curse by the gods, they think of him.

Yss is a major deal in the modern political landscape and will be relevant for a very very long time, even as Gods see it, because of us.

There's a signficant buffer area to prevent
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And yet DP has repeatedly stated he has no sense of loyalty, he does not care what we have done for him because he paid his debts in boons and divinations etc, it would be in his interest to beat up Mammon sure but this the Planes, we are not the biggest fish around and I would appreciate @DragonParadox responding to my question directly.
 
Deliste said:
And yet DP has repeatedly stated he has no sense of loyalty, he does not care what we have done for him because he paid his debts in boons and divinations etc, it would be in his interest to beat up Mammon sure but this the Planes, we are not the biggest fish around and I would appreciate @DragonParadox responding to my question directly.
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He has also repeatedly stated that Yss would have taken it upon himself to resurrect Viserys. Not even out of being indebted -- Yss makes it a point to pay upfront for everything -- but because we're a fantastic business partner who feeds him powerful sacrifices semi-regularly and who protects his main core of worshippers. Behold the Commerce Domain being formed.

If anyone wanted to subvert Yss against us, they would need to work incredibly hard to convince him. They'd effectively be asking him to work against his primary feeder. At the end of the day he is a greedy snake god.
 
Algalon said:
Indeed, there is only the right way, else you burn in hell. So you make sure you're the guy who declares what's the right way.
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Didn't work for Rome mate, some town preacher will decide the Seven who are one are 1 and 6 aspects, the idea gains traction, the merits are debated across the lands and then you have an unplanned schism taking up valuable time and resources for bullshit. It's happened many times before IRL, it will happen here, when the God is on your side you have the ultimate trump card to such disputes, when they are not you really have no recourse but force and as stated they thrive on suppression, #martyrlife.

Fuck the septons pointing to our lack of faith, our people don't currently need to argue on religious grounds, they can argue quality of life etc if you decide to engage with the faith you start playing their game, then our people have to argue theology.

I'm at work ATM so I really cannot run through the history of Christianity but maybe you should look into it. I really hope I'm not coming across as dismissive with that comment we just seem to differ on perspectives fundamentally and I think that could help you see my side.
In a nutshell you don't beat religion with religious argument, not that kind anyway.

Schisms are however, great in your enemies lands, unfortunately we plan on winning so handily it's not worth the disruption to Westeros in my opinion and we don't need religion to pull the West back into the fold like Constantine did.
 
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@DragonParadox, since we already are a bit on a tight schedule, could we maybe do the first round of festival organisation (what events, how to advertise, who to invite) and the Yi-Ti expedition preparation (what goods to take, what minor people to send along, etc.) before going to the planes?
 
Azel said:
@DragonParadox, since we already are a bit on a tight schedule, could we maybe do the first round of festival organisation (what events, how to advertise, who to invite) and the Yi-Ti expedition preparation (what goods to take, what minor people to send along, etc.) before going to the planes?
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We need to do the Valyrian Steel for the Harbinger first before it gets delayed any further. We've already lost a day.
 
@One Autumn Leaf - There are a great deal of fanatical Seven followers who hate us and everything we stand for. And then there are a lot of them which are okay with us.

You seem utterly convinced that if we make any sort of effort to handle the Seven in a manner besides outright hostility, it'll give them an opening and they'll rise up and destroy us, or something, it's not totally clear.
One Autumn Leaf said:
We are already an infidel and frankly if they want to die let them. We can write a peace after we have throughly kicked their asses. They will already point to our magic, to the gods we court and have aligned ourselves with and to the lack of respect for the faith. Viserys has no respect for the faith. Next you will suggest we give up magic in order to appease the small folk. We are making an empire that spans the world and the faith can either come along or fade away. We can go the way of Maelor and Jaehaerys by both crushing the faith and bringing it to heel.
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Like, what are you even saying here? I'm already done arguing with you because this is clearly yet another Saltpans situation, and nothing will convince you you're wrong up until the vote passes and it works fine.

Leaving aside your increasingly hysterical accusations, let me address what you are proposing. Which is difficult because you haven't really done anything but demand in vague terms that we 'crush' the Faith before we reconcile, but let me try to address that anyway.

This is not the same situation as the last Targ/Faith war all over again, and in any case we cannot be both Maegor and Jaehaerys. We aren't going to have a sympathetic relative otherthrow us after we've brunt down half of Westeros in a spree of horrific atrocities against the Faith Militant. That's not Viserys' style, and in any case the FM hasn't even been reformed yet. By taking a more diplomatic path, we aren't 'showing weakness,' the Faith isn't completely filled with frothing fanatics who can't be reasoned with - hell, even the actual Seven aren't united in purpose against us.

In summery: chill.

@Deliste - I'm not completely sure what's up with you but it clearly stems from some sort of beef with religion/Christianity at large. I'm just gonna say that the FotS is not Christianity, Planetos is not earth, and you need to consider the situation objectively.
 
Goldfish said:
Not a full production line in our industrial facility. Our regular Alchemical production, however, is being continued in order to provide more specialized items for which a full facility would be excessive. We can produce 176 doses of Incendiary Catalyst per week in this manner.
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Would we be able to take an industrial facility slot and adjust it to be able to make specialised lines of 10 different items (or many more items depending on if I've lost all sense of scale), probably at some sort of efficiency loss? I feel like there are items that we would find useful to have a few hundred of on hand for regular but small use, or for specialised Inquisition use.

One Autumn Leaf said:
We can go the way of Maelor and Jaehaerys by both crushing the faith and bringing it to heel.
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I believe the greatly simplified disconnect here is that the topic you're responding to is "Here's a way we can explore subverting the Faith without immediately causing the need to murder many many people and definitely alienating a continent's worth of subjects, let's figure out how viable this is" and your response amounts to "That idea is absolutely stupid, we should go straight to the murder option and try to top our ancestors, best known for murdering so many people and instituting hard bureaucratic change, as strongly as possible."

Or at least, that's how I'm understanding your argument.

Granted, I agree with you on certain points, including shitting on Baelor's legacy and improving education, but I feel like you're arguing this in a counterproductive method that feels more aggressive than you may have intended.

Personally, I think we should sit down with advisers about the Faith (and a seperate sit down about Burny Man) to discuss what it's currently up to, what we can do to address its political power, and what we should do to address its political power.

We don't nearly know all of the cards on the table so we should do some ground work before deciding on a course of action, but once we do have sufficient intel then we definitely need to start making moves to progress our voted upon agenda for these religious political bodies ASAP.
 
LonelyWolf999 said:
@Deliste - I'm not completely sure what's up with you but it clearly stems from some sort of beef with religion/Christianity at large. I'm just gonna say that the FotS is not Christianity, Planetos is not earth, and you need to consider the situation objectively.
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Not at all, FotS just have some of the same concepts that made it a problem in our world at times, Judaism encourages debate of interpretation and does not require that a conclave reach a consensus for all followers to abide by, many religions don't in fact and can coexist with others just fine, Romans God shopped just like SD residents do, all cults are welcome as long as they could fit into the pantheon, Christianity is an "us or heathen" thing and I see the parallels, if you don't that's fine but I'd appreciate you not assuming my motivations.
 
Duesal said:
He has also repeatedly stated that Yss would have taken it upon himself to resurrect Viserys. Not even out of being indebted -- Yss makes it a point to pay upfront for everything -- but because we're a fantastic business partner who feeds him powerful sacrifices semi-regularly and who protects his main core of worshippers. Behold the Commerce Domain being formed.

If anyone wanted to subvert Yss against us, they would need to work incredibly hard to convince him. They'd effectively be asking him to work against his primary feeder. At the end of the day he is a greedy snake god.
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I haven't said anything to contest that, nor did I ever say it would be cheap, all I asked DP was if Yss got a better offer at our expense would he take it, because some people believe that answer to be no.
 
Two thing form my side on the faith discussion:

1. The reason I wanted to talk with the Red Faith leadership in all of our major cities and Volantis is that I fully intend to finally build a Burny temple in SD. We've got literal millions of Burny worshipers these days and a sizable portion of them thinks us their messiah, not an enemy. We just need a firm and consistent policy with the Red Faith and need to pick whom to install as the head priest in SD.

2. I'm all in favor of a Sept in SD. But before starting on it, we should make some "reasonable corrections" to the Seven Pointed Star.
 
Duesal said:
We need to do the Valyrian Steel for the Harbinger first before it gets delayed any further. We've already lost a day.
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Don't worry, dude. We're going to get the full month of enchanting time in for the Harbinger. There is conceptual enchanting and prepwork that can be done while the enchanters wait for the Valyrian Steel.
Walliseatscheese said:
Would we be able to take an industrial facility slot and adjust it to be able to make specialised lines of 10 different items (or many more items depending on if I've lost all sense of scale), probably at some sort of efficiency loss? I feel like there are items that we would find useful to have a few hundred of on hand for regular but small use, or for specialised Inquisition use.
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Nope. The industrial production lines are highly specialized. It's part of the trade-off for being able to produce vastly more for a reduced price. The best we can manage is to completely retool a production line, which costs 5,000 IM and requires two weeks of downtime.

Take a look at our regular Alchemical production, as we've been doing it for months now. This is what we're currently scheduled to produce during the 8th month. It's not set in stone, though, so some reshuffling is possible.
 
LonelyWolf999 said:
@One Autumn Leaf - There are a great deal of fanatical Seven followers who hate us and everything we stand for. And then there are a lot of them which are okay with us.

You seem utterly convinced that if we make any sort of effort to handle the Seven in a manner besides outright hostility, it'll give them an opening and they'll rise up and destroy us, or something, it's not totally clear.

Like, what are you even saying here? I'm already done arguing with you because this is clearly yet another Saltpans situation, and nothing will convince you you're wrong up until the vote passes and it works fine.

Leaving aside your increasingly hysterical accusations, let me address what you are proposing. Which is difficult because you haven't really done anything but demand in vague terms that we 'crush' the Faith before we reconcile, but let me try to address that anyway.

This is not the same situation as the last Targ/Faith war all over again, and in any case we cannot be both Maegor and Jaehaerys. We aren't going to have a sympathetic relative otherthrow us after we've brunt down half of Westeros in a spree of horrific atrocities against the Faith Militant. That's not Viserys' style, and in any case the FM hasn't even been reformed yet. By taking a more diplomatic path, we aren't 'showing weakness,' the Faith isn't completely filled with frothing fanatics who can't be reasoned with - hell, even the actual Seven aren't united in purpose against us.

In summery: chill.

@Deliste - I'm not completely sure what's up with you but it clearly stems from some sort of beef with religion/Christianity at large. I'm just gonna say that the FotS is not Christianity, Planetos is not earth, and you need to consider the situation objectively.
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Yeh you are probably right today. I have been rather aggressive with this whole thing in general. Okay I am gonna calm now. So my opinion boils down to Aegon famous words and how we used it to convince Volantis to our side. "If someone bends we help them up but they dont bend why should we help them?" I get it. This is a poisoned gift, I get that but frankly with organized religion the only way to control it is to have many schisms as possible and not support any single one. The suggestions being given are to pick one and support it. I would rather make as many schism as possible and acknowledge all of them. That way the faithful are too busy fighting amongst themselves on the true interpretation and not us. It is the same plan with Rhllor. I dont want to make them a sept because that mean we are supporting an interpretation of the faith and that rallies people. This method ha no zealots to rally because well if they dont know the true faith how can force it on people?

Now I wish I had articulated this sooner but I have not been in a good mood today. I apologize for it and will try to control my temper in the future.
 
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Deliste said:
I haven't said anything to contest that, nor did I ever say it would be cheap, all I asked DP was if Yss got a better offer at our expense would he take it, because some people believe that answer to be no.
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Oh, it's a yes from where I see it. It's just that the chances of Yss getting a deal anywhere near good enough to even consider accepting are so hilariously low that it may as well be a no. We've built very good credit. Commerce FTW.
Goldfish said:
Don't worry, dude. We're going to get the full month of enchanting time in for the Harbinger. There is conceptual enchanting and prepwork that can be done while the enchanters wait for the Valyrian Steel.
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I'd rather just drop everything and get that Valyrian Steel made, personally.
 
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Duesal said:
I'd rather just drop everything and get that Valyrian Steel made, personally.
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The way I see it, especially in the case of the lower-level crafters helping out the project, is that many parts are forged and preliminary enchantments done on them before the actual Harbinger is assembled from them and finished.

So we should already have the crafters using our existing VS stockpile to start working.
 
Deliste said:
Not at all, FotS just have some of the same concepts that made it a problem in our world at times, Judaism encourages debate of interpretation and does not require that a conclave reach a consensus for all followers to abide by, many religions don't in fact and can coexist with others just fine, Romans God shopped just like SD residents do, all cults are welcome as long as they could fit into the pantheon, Christianity is an "us or heathen" thing and I see the parallels, if you don't that's fine but I'd appreciate you not assuming my motivations.
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I can assure you Christianity is hardly unique in having periods of intense zealotry and intolerance. Nor was attempting to communicate and negotiate with zealous Christians an exercise in futility. Judaism isn't an exception, the Roman pantheon barely counts as a religion which is why it was so utterly and quickly replaced by a completely foreign faith, and ...

Once again, what's even the point of using IRL religions as refences for this sort of thing? The situation is just so significantly different that any analogies fail to have proper meaning.
 
Deliste said:
Not at all, FotS just have some of the same concepts that made it a problem in our world at times, Judaism encourages debate of interpretation and does not require that a conclave reach a consensus for all followers to abide by, many religions don't in fact and can coexist with others just fine, Romans God shopped just like SD residents do, all cults are welcome as long as they could fit into the pantheon, Christianity is an "us or heathen" thing and I see the parallels, if you don't that's fine but I'd appreciate you not assuming my motivations.
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My apologies, but I seem to have lost the point you're trying to make across these posts. I currently have "The Faith is an 'Us or Them' set up" (which is at least somewhat false, the Old Gods were somewhat tolerated in canon and a Red Priest served several Iron Throne Kings including Robert) and "A Schism within the Faith is inevitable" (though it appears that according to Book canon, no such schisms have actually happened with the closest one being a King of the Iron Islands briefly adding the Drowned God as another Face of the Eight, before being scolded by both Septons and Drowned Priests and conceding that the Drowned God is an aspect of the Stranger and calling them the Seven again).

If you wouldn't mind reiterating and refocusing the point or points you're making for clarity, I would appreciate it.

Deliste said:
I haven't said anything to contest that, nor did I ever say it would be cheap, all I asked DP was if Yss got a better offer at our expense would he take it, because some people believe that answer to be no.
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Can you define said better offer?
 
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Azel said:
The way I see it, especially in the case of the lower-level crafters helping out the project, is that many parts are forged and preliminary enchantments done on them before the actual Harbinger is assembled from them and finished.

So we should already have the crafters using our existing VS stockpile to start working.
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It's honestly just getting on my nerves -- we voted to have this taken care of immediately. I just want it out of the way so I don't have to count down the days that we miss. It'd only take a few hours at most, and it only needs a vote on which sacrifices to use and maybe a paragraph or two mentioning that it's being taken care of.
 
Goldfish said:
Don't worry, dude. We're going to get the full month of enchanting time in for the Harbinger. There is conceptual enchanting and prepwork that can be done while the enchanters wait for the Valyrian Steel.

Nope. The industrial production lines are highly specialized. It's part of the trade-off for being able to produce vastly more for a reduced price. The best we can manage is to completely retool a production line, which costs 5,000 IM and requires two weeks of downtime.

Take a look at our regular Alchemical production, as we've been doing it for months now. This is what we're currently scheduled to produce during the 8th month. It's not set in stone, though, so some reshuffling is possible.
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Oh my gods I feel stupid, we're literally working on introducing Alchemists into our Mage Factory, soon this won't be a problem at all. And then once we get those Ratfolk we'll be able to get graduates with an Alchemy bonus of around +25 as a barely optimized option.
 
LonelyWolf999 said:
I can assure you Christianity is hardly unique in having periods of intense zealotry and intolerance. Nor was attempting to communicate and negotiate with zealous Christians an exercise in futility. Judaism isn't an exception, the Roman pantheon barely counts as a religion which is why it was so utterly and quickly replaced by a completely foreign faith, and ...

Once again, what's even the point of using IRL religions as refences for this sort of thing? The situation is just so significantly different that any analogies fail to have proper meaning.
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Nor does the Seven have a monopoly on that, I have the same problems with Burny but he is not currently the topic of conversation and it's difficult to ignore people calling you the Messiah :/.

But these are not just periods, they are core concepts of the faith and the need to have one right answer is one of the biggest problems. One that Judaism does not share as far as I know.

Communication was indeed possible, it just rarely ever went the way you expected because "minor" things like "is Jesus human and divine in equal halves or one whole comprised of both" would year the whole faith in two (3 really but I can't recall exactly how the third party saw the whole thing).


People are saying we need to manipulate the faith to secure our rule against septons preaching our heresy.

I do not believe this to be true, we are recreating the Roman concept of Pantheon (parallel) and it was overtaken by a foreign religion because Rome needed a social uniter to accompany their governmental oversight, it was an encouraged shortcut to national identity for a realm that was comprised of many disparate people (parallel). We are building that identity now and the Seven is not required for that plan.

The Seven are Westeros focused, it would not be a uniting factor, furthermore we do not need to build a giant church to get the High Septons blessing, we do not need his blessing to reunite West with East, we do that by providing better options, through our legacy, through exceptional administrative capabilities and most importantly, the most important thing in all of history, a common enemy.

Walliseatscheese said:
My apologies, but I seem to have lost the point you're trying to make across these posts. I currently have "The Faith is an 'Us or Them' set up" (which is at least somewhat false, the Old Gods were somewhat tolerated in canon and a Red Priest served several Iron Throne Kings including Robert) and "A Schism within the Faith is inevitable" (though it appears that according to Book canon, no such schisms have actually happened with the closest one being a King of the Iron Islands briefly adding the Drowned God as another Face of the Eight, before being scolded by both Septons and Drowned Priests and conceding that the Drowned God is an aspect of the Stranger and calling them the Seven again).

If you wouldn't mind reiterating and refocusing the point or points you're making for clarity, I would appreciate it.



Can you define said better offer?
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We've had more than enough proof that they are intolerant as far as I'm concerned, what happened to the Old Gods and Weirwoods alone should be enough to prove that.

The lack of schism is indeed curious and derided as unrealistic from what I have read but we will be pushing highly controversial doctrines for the foreseeable future, prime breeding ground for that kind of thing and just something that seems way more trouble than it is worth.

I also do not like bowing to Burny or the Seven simply because they have numbers, I do not want to be an accomplice to their bullshit, everyone else earned their place in our Pantheon the right way.
 
I am concerned that burny is not a big magic bucket dream story thing, and is instead a conscious planar realm, pretending to be a magic dream thingy.

As such I would like to ask @DragonParadox what Viserys thinks might happen if one to try the "usual" method of subverting a god on an archduke of the hells. If possible, maximum buffs plz :)

Specifically, in this hypothetical, the archduke in question is being worshipped as if it was a god ;)

@thread my rational: as far as I understand it, archduke != god, different mechanics, attempts to manipulate the narrative and thereby entity in question may fail or backfire.
 
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