He would absolutely if he had to break a standing agreement to get it.
A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover
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He would absolutely if he had to break a standing agreement to get it.
Sure. That works
- Location
- Australia
And this is why I say to make an explicit binding agreement first @egoo, it would be expensive for our enemies but at the moment we are open to outbidding.
We can make that not the case and we should.
Edit:
@DragonParadox @Duesal do we have a write up of Yss' standing agreements?
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- Location
- Australia
Viserys has til now successfully hidden her from everyone, he might be able to pull of mysterious dragon man thing but Not-Fey would blow the ruse to pieces.
Will re-read for the hints @doggo has dropped so far.
egoo
Totally Not Creating Problems Where None Existed
- Location
- Russia
Alright, I will remove the notion of building shrines to Yss on onter planes for now.
@DragonParadox, a bit OOC, but still: how close is Yss to actually manifesting that Commerce domain?
Or would us making a dedicated binding agreement with him, the one about shunting off divine ebergy from us to him and maybe other gods in Pantheon, be the last needed push?
- *rolls knowledge religion* Dany would say he is very close, a few months to half a year at the current rate
- You don't have any divine energy to push off at the moment so you can't make the deal
- Location
- Australia
Why can't we nut out the contract now? The whole point is for us not to be stuck holding the Divine Energy and I don't think gaining it and then rushing the deal is the best way to go about this, plenty of contracts are written without the asset currently on hand.
egoo
Totally Not Creating Problems Where None Existed
- Location
- Russia
Eh, I phrased that badly, I suppose.
Eventually, Viserys is going to be worshipped. He already is, I suppose, but with our plans it's inevitable that a steady trickle of divine energy will go to him.
And you ruled that we can shunt off those prayers to be going to Yss/other gods instead.
Is making a contract for that before any prayers start impossible?
EDIT: Deliste'd
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You already do to some extent, stuff like 'protect Sorcerer's Deep,' since it is where he keeps his avatar. that's why he warned you about the wildfire
Yss does not deal well in promises, especially promises dealing with divine faith, promising divine power you do not currently have comes too close to one of his few hot buttons.
egoo
Totally Not Creating Problems Where None Existed
- Location
- Russia
The idea isn't so much as 'promising' him divine energy, as setting up a clause that if we get any it wouldn't go to us.
Sure, OOC we all expect that, but Viserys probably doesn't?
- Location
- Australia
I think we should offer Yss a fee of say 1-2% in line with escrow fees.
Not sure how we break it down within the Pantheon, the simplest approach would be equal shares for a non-compete agreement and potentially the Pantheon voting on all prospective (vetted by Viserys) Pantheon members so they have some control on the erosion of share. It could still be in their interest to vote a Pantheon member in if said member was likely to benefit the Imperium to the point of increased worship, either through satisfaction or sheer numbers e.g. fertility goddess.
If there are gods we have yet to acquire and know we will want to we might write in a few placeholder positions to be filled at our discretion.
We could also have X% held in trust by Yss, he gets the income from that until we decide to temporarily transfer the income stream to another member of the Pantheon in exchange for a specific service or agreement.
Do X and you get Y% godjuice for the next Z years.
Not sure how we break it down within the Pantheon, the simplest approach would be equal shares for a non-compete agreement and potentially the Pantheon voting on all prospective (vetted by Viserys) Pantheon members so they have some control on the erosion of share. It could still be in their interest to vote a Pantheon member in if said member was likely to benefit the Imperium to the point of increased worship, either through satisfaction or sheer numbers e.g. fertility goddess.
If there are gods we have yet to acquire and know we will want to we might write in a few placeholder positions to be filled at our discretion.
We could also have X% held in trust by Yss, he gets the income from that until we decide to temporarily transfer the income stream to another member of the Pantheon in exchange for a specific service or agreement.
Do X and you get Y% godjuice for the next Z years.
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- Location
- Germany
If you want to talk about divine energy, have a chat with the Old Gods first.
This whole notion is pretty ridiculous. It makes broad assumptions about the relationship between prayer and the divine and we have no IC knowledge about the matter at all. Furthermore, people are dog-piling this fictional solution to a fictional problem instead of actually putting efforts into understanding the issue first. There isn't even an attempt to actual harness that power in some controlled fashion instead of just dumping it on Yss without even knowing the consequences of that move.
Ask Bloodraven. Before that, I will oppose any deal being even attempted to make.
This whole notion is pretty ridiculous. It makes broad assumptions about the relationship between prayer and the divine and we have no IC knowledge about the matter at all. Furthermore, people are dog-piling this fictional solution to a fictional problem instead of actually putting efforts into understanding the issue first. There isn't even an attempt to actual harness that power in some controlled fashion instead of just dumping it on Yss without even knowing the consequences of that move.
Ask Bloodraven. Before that, I will oppose any deal being even attempted to make.
- Location
- Australia
Kinda need something more definite here DP, for example the way you have written this is that he must always protect SD no matter what. That's fantastic if true, does that mean structural damage, citizen deaths? What if someone sneaks in to assassinate or stasised clone? What if said clone is buried under the streets (and appropriately warded)?
That's inherently a conditional promise
It's not a explicit spoken oath, by giving him a temple in the city and concentrating his worshipers there you incentivize him to protect the city as a whole. In view of this, as well as all the other benefits of collaboration that Yss is getting Viserys is IC fine with giving Yss shrines on other planes.
To put this another way, you are worried about other individuals getting in contact with Yss and making promises to him where you can't control it. They already can. They would only have to walk into the temple and talk to the avatar telepathically and there would be no witnesses. There is no extra risk involved.
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egoo
Totally Not Creating Problems Where None Existed
- Location
- Russia
Do we?
@DragonParadox, what's the party's opinion on the matter of divinity and gaining it by a mortal through sheer worship of other mortals?
And don't get me wrong here, @Azel, the idea to ask uncle is a good one, I'm adding that to minor actions.
Just, well, with the skills of our party I really don't think that those who can say "yes, it's possible" to such a contract and those who can see how close is a god to developing a new domain wouldn't have at least passing understanding of the issue.
...I'm bringing shrines on the other planes back, then, @Deliste.
egoo
Totally Not Creating Problems Where None Existed
- Location
- Russia
So, not a fictional issue anymore, but 'just' an unknown that may or may not appear at the worst possible moment.
Yeah, we are talking with Uncle about the matter.
- Location
- Germany
Reminder here by the way that Viserys already has "divine energy". It's called a Mythic rank.
The whole matter reeks of throwing out the kid with the bathwater to me. People are so mortally afraid of anything divine that they latch on the very first thing that promises a solution to that alleged problem.
People in Myr staged an uprising in the name of their messiah and nothing metaphysical happened to us, so I don't understand this fear of us "accidentally becoming a god".
The whole matter reeks of throwing out the kid with the bathwater to me. People are so mortally afraid of anything divine that they latch on the very first thing that promises a solution to that alleged problem.
People in Myr staged an uprising in the name of their messiah and nothing metaphysical happened to us, so I don't understand this fear of us "accidentally becoming a god".
- Location
- Australia
Incentivizing is not an agreement DP. The details of this are very important for our decisions.
You cannot break a "standing incentive", that's just outbidding which you said could be done.
Furthermore we have decent control over who walks into his SD temple even if only by virtue of it being on PoB, there aren't many here who can offer more than us if any. The same is not true of the wider planes.
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- Germany
Any power who could outbid us could trivially infiltrate the temple for a private chat.
- Location
- Australia
Divine Energy is a resource, it can be transferred, which means it can be traded for goods and or services.
That's about all we need to know for broad strokes, as with my proposed "divine income stream" we can trade it for whatever we can get and trade it again when the agreement lapses.
That is not "dumping it on Yss" or "throwing it away"
That's about all we need to know for broad strokes, as with my proposed "divine income stream" we can trade it for whatever we can get and trade it again when the agreement lapses.
That is not "dumping it on Yss" or "throwing it away"
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- Point, it's not ironclad
- I would contest that. Yes you have control insofar as keeping out individual beings, however if someone wanted to sneak in say a single imp or quasit to act as a conduit for negotiations it would be trivial even easier to do so with a mage (who casts no spells save the aforementioned telepathy) or a bog standard mortal primed by ritual to deliver the message. You are trying to close the barn door when the horse is already well past the horizon.
egoo
Totally Not Creating Problems Where None Existed
- Location
- Russia
Well, the way I see it, Viserys already has people worshipping him.
He had those since his very fiery speech about being hte light that keeps the darkness away, if I'm not wrong?
Well, with us having this mirror-network and an Empire worth of people, some of who will be worshipping Viserys, it doesn't bode well for not accidentaly getting a boost of divinity.
And no, I'm pretty sure that Mythic Ranks aren't directly divine energy.
They can be manifested by divine energy, but what divine energy would Sir RIchard hold? Or would Lya have it?
I really don't think so.
"Legend-wrought power" DP called it, and I think that that's by-and-large direct manipulation of reality through, well, your own narrative, and not other people's worship.
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- Location
- Australia
2. Acknowledged. @egoo go for it.
1. You're going to have to re-answer my question in that context.
Would he allow harm to come to SD with a big enough bid?
What standing agreements do we have, if any?