Hey @Azel, remember my "thematic character art" thing?
Adding in that DOOM pic for Viserys here. It just fits so well!

By the way @DragonParadox, any chance of having it threadmarked under media? And if not, how could I improve it? I find the lack of any kind of character pictures rather disappointing.

Done, I think I may have just scrolled past it by accident when it was posted.

it says he's equipped with fleasticker but unlike other magic weapons it stat are not shoe in the character sheet I does not show is there two of them ?

No, it's just a case of his sheet not being as meticulous
 
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So as the bear discussion has died down...
Lets bring it up again!

@Mormont, how about your werebear and druid family? Aren't they suppose to have arrived in Tyrosh by now?
 
the other being to sell off your gold reserves at a profit. To achieve this, you will re-introduce part of the gold into the Planetosi economy by buying trade goods that the Djinn state or large trading companies are interested in. // This opens up a steady gold drain from Planetos to the Plane of Air, which will greatly slow down the devaluing of gold in Planetos, preventing economic troubles. At the same time: profit. Lots of it.

So we have gold.

Then we buy Planetosi goods for gold.

We sell the goods for Notes.

Exchange half the notes for Scepters and deposit it all.

My question is at what point is gold leaving Planetos?

Edit: Typos
 
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Hey, @DragonParadox, would you be up to writing up the answers to these questions, found in Uniila-Codex mostly OOC?
Or writing them up whatsoever this turn?
1. Formula for wildfire so that Waymar doesn't need to reverse engineer and can immediately work out a "safe" variant.
2. The formulas for the various poisons she knows.
3. All details on all current plots she's aware of.
4. In particular, what the devils had planned for Lord Corbray and with any Valyrian Dragons they might have managed to hatch.
5. Her knowledge on the state of Hell's courts and if any other dukes are currently moving on Prime Material.
6. The names of every last Fury she knows in Mammon's service.
7. The names of devils with shiny templates. Especially a platinum Cornugon, if such a thing exists.
8. Her knowledge of all supernaturals currently in Prime Material.
9. All intel on her current research.
10. Explicit details on what happened in the Summerhall Disaster.
11. Knowledge of where Lamentation is being held.
12. What the name of the Advodaza is, or if she doesn't know, knowledge of who *would* know.
13. In White Harbor we discovered there was an original devil summoner who was apparently a high lord, the one who started the infestation. We want his name.
14. Intel on the Devils' war against the Deep Ones.
15. All history she has on the Dawn Age, the various powers that ruled Prime Material at the time (especially dragons), the pact between the proto-Valyrians and the devils, anything she might know about the Doom, etc. If it's historical and plot relevant, we want to know.
16. Any form of intel she might have on the warlocks of Qarth, and whatever is in Asshai.
17. Whatever she knows about the Breaking of the Spheres.

as per our minor action, spells Psychic Asylum, Commune With Texts, Scholar's Touch and Amaneusis are to be used on this, so it's certainly doable in-character...

Btw, @Duesal, cudos to you.
 
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@Duesal
Don't we have the summoner of that Advodanca captured, the Pleasure Devil who failed the calling?

I'm pretty sure that's not something we have to get from anyone else but this guy. He even has a good reason for telling us, the greater devil kinda left him to his fate by refusing the call.
 
when we deal with devil summoning.
I... Don't completely understand the structure of the following updates.

Reading through Uniila is a given requirement if we are to dedicatedly summon devils, as it will give us True Names to target and knowledge what groups to target first, in a quick succession, so as to drop their presence on Planetos as completely as possible.
(Knowledge on which groups oppose Deep Ones would be much needed too, if possible. As them we can actually afford not summoning)

Pretty much my main argument back in the beginning of the month was that we should read through her first, or it would be doing things based on dead skulls, I.e. very disorderly and slap-dash.

Or would that update be just information on who was summoned by Lya through 13-27 and whom Inquisition captured, book included?
 
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I... Don't completely understand the structure of the following updates.

Reading through Uniila is a given requirement if we are to dedicatedly summon devils, as it will give us True Names to target and knowledge what groups to target first, in a quick succession, so as to drop their presence on Planetos as completely as possible.
(Knowledge on which groups oppose Deep Ones would be much needed too, if possible. As them we can actually afford not summoning)

Pretty much my main argument back in the beginning of the month was that we should read through her first, or it would be doing things based on dead skulls, I.e. very disorderly and slap-dash.

Or would that update be just information on who was summoned by Lya through 13-27 and whom Inquisition captured, book included?

The reading can be assumed to have happened in the background and it will be presented in the update alongside the fiend summoning report. Then we have a vote on what do do about the devils.
 
Now I distinctly remember having a discussion about the dangers of excessive immortality among the rich in the thread a while back. My position drew heavily on Piketty's statistics to justify the need for some sort of progressive taxation and for some means of limitation of the concentration of capital among the 1%. Tarrangar seemed quite unconvinced of the problem, disagreed with the morality of my proposal, and also disagreed with my socioeconomic points.

So!
Either Tarrangar read some of my arguments and sort-of remembered them (they're not 100% identical/understood, but his general ideas do seem to have shifted) or they had a wholly unrelated change of heart in the interim and I'm very disappointed.
You didn't change my stance, so much as you gave me ideas about how it could work, I have never been a fan of the excessive concentration of wealth in our society.

The reason I was arguing for beings like dragons having exceptions, is because from how I interpret hoarding instincts, it's not just a wish for riches, it's also a collectors love for having a big collection, in this quest at least it turned out I was wrong, but from how I interpreted things, dragons have a wish to be rich, but they also have a separate but connected wish to have a big hoard(which is separate because it's mainly about instinct instead of logic, so anything their instincts tell them is precious, will satisfy the hoarding instinct, even if it is actually pretty much worthless now, meaning a dragon who came to our world, would want an actual fortune, but it would also want to hoard extreme amounts of aluminium, because in premodern societies, aluminium can be more precious than gold, so while it wouldn't want a hoard made of just aluminium, a few dozen tons of it would make it's hoarding instinct purr, guaranteeing it a much better sleep, so this is why I wanted to give dragons, exceptions that allowed them to hoard precious metals, with limitations on how much they could spend at a time, because I saw gold as a giant security blanket to a dragon, satisfying even if it's monetary worth should sink to near zero)

So you gave me new ideas, but I wouldn't say you changed my heart, so much as you taught me new ideas that I fit into my worldview.
 
@DragonParadox

Do you have a crafting cost for lesser and greater stars of shallosh? What about separate insight +AC and additional spell effects, is that possible? If so, what would the cost of each be?

What about adding higher level spells, or is that not something you've made any decisions on yet?

#DivineInsightForWaymarAndMaelor2019
 
@DragonParadox

Do you have a crafting cost for lesser and greater stars of shallosh? What about separate insight +AC and additional spell effects, is that possible? If so, what would the cost of each be?

What about adding higher level spells, or is that not something you've made any decisions on yet?

#DivineInsightForWaymarAndMaelor2019

I have not thought of it yet. I'll get back on this later. For now vote closed. Let's see about the economy and the rumors.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Jan 10, 2019 at 3:30 AM, finished with 187 posts and 10 votes.

  • [X] Azel
    [X] Plan Dryer Then Molten Skies
    -[X] The Easy Stuff
    --[X] Terminate your account with the Bank of Lys, taking the 50,000 IM from that account back into the treasury. // This account is pointless and can be terminated.
    --[X] Mint 8 million Imperial Marks, turning that amount of Book Money into Coinage. // Leaving some money as Book Money instead of coins. Why will become clear in a bit.
    --[X] Exchange your current treasury for Imperial Marks, taking 2 million in Book Money and the remainder (2,754,627.13 IM) in coinage, thus raising the Gold Reserve by 4,754,627.13 IM. // Now we can run part of our budget without physically transferring coins for everything. Also cleans up the treasury.
    --[X] Since Imperial Marks are already in limited circulation, lower the coinage and raise gold reserves by the amount DP decrees. // Should be somewhere between 100,000 and 1 million.
    --[X] Until the Iron Bank has a their own offices in Amun Kelisk and the Opaline Vault, let them operate from the ACSEC premises at no charge. // Was always implied, but let's spell it out.
    -[X] The Average Stuff
    --[X] Deposit 2 million Imperial Marks in coinage and another 2 million Imperial Marks in book money with the Iron Bank. // This is the seed for them to exchange money and give out loans in Imperial Marks. The seed should stay the same and if they need more coinage or book money, they have to transfer us the appropriate amount of gold in return.
    --[X] As a general policy, you will keep a limited amount of gold reserves for now to stay liquid in Planetosi currency, but due to the influx of wealth from the planes, gold will loose value over the coming months, thus regularly devaluing your gold reserves. // Spelling it out here, but ultimately something that we need to keep in mind for further transactions ourselves.
    --[X] Decree that taxes can be paid in gold or Imperial Marks at the exchange rate. This means that people can bypass the exchange fee set by the Iron Bank when paying the Imperium, thus encouraging them to give you their gold. This somewhat decreases the market for money exchanges within the Imperium for the Iron Bank, but they will still greatly profit from exchanging for foreigners, on the planes and for other governments who will soon try to insulate their treasuries from the dropping gold price. // This means that we have a steady stream of gold coming in while Imperial Marks leave our possession. For the ease of handling, I would just flat out set our total tax income as the monthly dissemination of Imperial Marks, baring what the Iron Bank is doing in regards to loans and foreign exchanges.
    -[X] The Hard Stuff
    --[X] Commit to travel to Amun Kelisk first thing next month to negotiate two deals. The first is acquiring and island tethered to Amun Kelisk on which you can build the third Terminus, the other being to sell off your gold reserves at a profit. To achieve this, you will re-introduce part of the gold into the Planetosi economy by buying trade goods that the Djinn state or large trading companies are interested in. // This opens up a steady gold drain from Planetos to the Plane of Air, which will greatly slow down the devaluing of gold in Planetos, preventing economic troubles. At the same time: profit. Lots of it.
    --[X] You will exchange half the Silk Notes generated by such a deal into Glass Scepters and then deposit the whole sum as foreign currency reserve. That allows you to issue more Imperial Marks, which you will promptly do. // This is how we expand our currency reserves and issue more Imperial Marks. Keep in mind here that this is mostly a shell game at this point. We are not actually creating any money at all, as we issue 1:1. The actual printing will be done in a few months when we can convince the new currency council to lower the minimum deposit we need for issuing.
 
Sorcerer's Deep Mage Gear:

Wizard:
Sorcerer's Deep Adventurer's Kit©: Bedroll, Belt Pouch, Blanket, Camping Gear (a pot & mess kit), Clothing (x2 Explorer's Outfits, x1 Scholar's Outfit), Flint & Steel, Hand Mirror, Rope (50ft), Spellbook, Spell Component Pouch, Tent, Waterskins (x2), Writing Implements (paper, ink, a pen or quills, & scrollcase)
Alchemical Items: Antiplague (x3), Antitoxin (x3), Auran Mask (x3), Healing Salve (x6), Vermin Repellent (x6), Smokestick (x6), Sunrod (x3), Fungal Stun Vial (x6), Sleep-Smoke (x6), Alchemist's Fire (x6), Liquid Ice (x3), Thunderstone (x3), Tanglefoot Bag (x3)
Ring of Protection from Evil
Healing Belt (+2 CON)
Circlet of Clarity (+2 INT)
Quill of Scribing
Earrings of Arcane Acuity
Anklets of Translocation
Ring of Sustenance
Bracers of Arcane Freedom
Handy Haversack
Amulet of Tears
Ring of Continual Flame
Launcher
Masterwork Razor Sharp Adamantine Dagger
Masterwork Light Crossbow (w/2 quivers of 20 bolts)
Masterwork Quarterstaff

Total: 3,020 IM

Combat Sorcerer:
Sorcerer's Deep Adventurer's Kit©: Bedroll, Belt Pouch, Blanket, Camping Gear (a pot & mess kit), Clothing (x2 Explorer's Outfits, x1 Scholar's Outfit), Flint & Steel, Hand Mirror, Rope (50ft), Spell Component Pouch, Tent, Waterskins (x2), Writing Implements (paper, ink, a pen or quills, & scrollcase)
Alchemical Items: Antiplague (x3), Antitoxin (x3), Auran Mask (x3), Healing Salve (x6), Vermin Repellent (x6), Smokestick (x6), Sunrod (x3), Fungal Stun Vial (x12), Sleep-Smoke (x12), Alchemist's Fire (x12), Incendiary Catalyst (x12), Liquid Ice (x3), Thunderstone (x3), Tanglefoot Bag (x3)
Ring of Protection from Evil (w/+2 Charisma)
Gloves of the Starry Sky
Healing Belt (+1 CON)
Earrings of Arcane Acuity
Anklets of Translocation
Ring of Sustenance
Bracers of Arcane Freedom
Handy Haversack
Amulet of Tears
Pages of Spell Knowledge (Cantrips: Amanuensis, Arcane Mark, Caltrops, Mending, 1st Level: Disguise Self, Shield, 2nd Level: Rope Trick)
Ring of Continual Flame
Launcher
Masterwork Razor Sharp Adamantine Dagger
Masterwork Light Crossbow (w/2 quivers of 20 bolts)
Masterwork Quarterstaff

Total: 3,355 IM

Additional Gear at 6th Level:
Greater Ribbon of Disguise
Goggles of the Golden Sun
Pages of Spell Knowledge (1st Level: Snapdragon Fireworks, 2nd Level: Defending Bone, False Life, Full Pouch)
Upgrade Gloves of the Starry Sky w/Dispelling Cords effect
Total: 2,650 IM

Enchanter Sorcerer:
Sorcerer's Deep Adventurer's Kit©: Bedroll, Belt Pouch, Blanket, Camping Gear (a pot & mess kit), Clothing (x2 Explorer's Outfits, x1 Scholar's Outfit), Flint & Steel, Hand Mirror, Rope (50ft), Spell Component Pouch, Tent, Waterskins (x2), Writing Implements (paper, ink, a pen or quills, & scrollcase)
Alchemical Items: Antiplague (x3), Antitoxin (x3), Auran Mask (x3), Healing Salve (x6), Vermin Repellent (x6), Smokestick (x6), Sunrod (x3), Fungal Stun Vial (x12), Sleep-Smoke (x12), Alchemist's Fire (x12), Incendiary Catalyst (x12), Liquid Ice (x3), Thunderstone (x3), Tanglefoot Bag (x3)
Ring of Protection from Evil (w/+2 Charisma)
Gloves of the Starry Sky
Healing Belt (+1 CON)
Earrings of Arcane Acuity
Anklets of Translocation
Ring of Sustenance
Bracers of Arcane Freedom
Handy Haversack
Amulet of Tears
Pages of Spell Knowledge (1st Level: Detect Charm, Disguise Self, Shield, 2nd Level: Rope Trick)
Ring of Continual Flame
Launcher
Masterwork Razor Sharp Adamantine Dagger
Masterwork Light Crossbow (w/2 quivers of 20 bolts)
Masterwork Quarterstaff

Total: 3,355 IM

Additional Gear at 6th Level:
Greater Ribbon of Disguise
Mask of Allure (as Veil of Allure)
Page of Spell Knowledge (2nd Level: Protection from Arrows)
Total: 2,600 IM

Archivist:
Sorcerer's Deep Adventurer's Kit©: Bedroll, Belt Pouch, Blanket, Camping Gear (a pot & mess kit), Clothing (x2 Explorer's Outfits, x1 Scholar's Outfit), Flint & Steel, Hand Mirror, Holy Symbol, Rope (50ft), Spellbook, Tent, Waterskins (x2), Writing Implements (paper, ink, a pen or quills, & scrollcase)
Alchemical Items: Antiplague (x3), Antitoxin (x3), Auran Mask (x3), Healing Salve (x6), Vermin Repellent (x6), Smokestick (x6), Sunrod (x3), Fungal Stun Vial (x6), Sleep-Smoke (x6), Alchemist's Fire (x6), Liquid Ice (x3), Thunderstone (x3), Tanglefoot Bag (x3)
Ring of Protection from Evil
Healing Belt (+2 CON, +1 DEX)
Circlet of Clarity (+2 INT)
Earrings of Arcane Acuity
Anklets of Translocation
Ring of Sustenance
Handy Haversack
Wand of Cure Light Wounds
Amulet of Tears
Ring of Continual Flame
Launcher
Masterwork Razor Sharp Adamantine Dagger
Masterwork Light Crossbow (w/2 quivers of 20 bolts)
Masterwork Quarterstaff

Total: 2,865 IM

Mystic:
Sorcerer's Deep Adventurer's Kit©: Bedroll, Belt Pouch, Blanket, Camping Gear (a pot & mess kit), Clothing (x2 Explorer's Outfits, x1 Scholar's Outfit), Flint & Steel, Hand Mirror, Holy Symbol, Rope (50ft), Tent, Waterskins (x2), Writing Implements (paper, ink, a pen or quills, & scrollcase)
Alchemical Items: Antiplague (x3), Antitoxin (x3), Auran Mask (x3), Healing Salve (x6), Vermin Repellent (x6), Smokestick (x6), Sunrod (x3), Fungal Stun Vial (x6), Sleep-Smoke (x6), Alchemist's Fire (x6), Liquid Ice (x3), Thunderstone (x3), Tanglefoot Bag (x3)
Ring of Protection from Evil
Healing Belt (+2 CON)
Headband of the Whisper Within (+2 WIS, +1 Charisma)
Earrings of Arcane Acuity
Anklets of Translocation
Ring of Sustenance
Handy Haversack
Wand of Cure Light Wounds
Amulet of Tears
Muleback Cords
Ring of Continual Flame
Launcher
+1 Reinforced Segmented Adamantine Fullplate
+1 Extreme Shield
+1 Razor Sharp Adamantine Thinblade
Masterwork Light Crossbow (w/2 quivers of 20 bolts)
Total: 3,365 IM

Cleric:
Sorcerer's Deep Adventurer's Kit©: Bedroll, Belt Pouch, Blanket, Camping Gear (a pot & mess kit), Clothing (x2 Explorer's Outfits, x1 Scholar's Outfit), Flint & Steel, Hand Mirror, Holy Symbol, Rope (50ft), Tent, Waterskins (x2), Writing Implements (paper, ink, a pen or quills, & scrollcase)
Alchemical Items: Antiplague (x3), Antitoxin (x3), Auran Mask (x3), Healing Salve (x6), Vermin Repellent (x6), Smokestick (x6), Sunrod (x3), Fungal Stun Vial (x6), Sleep-Smoke (x6), Alchemist's Fire (x6), Liquid Ice (x3), Thunderstone (x3), Tanglefoot Bag (x3)
Ring of Protection from Evil
Healing Belt (+2 CON)
Headband of the Whisper Within (+2 WIS)
Earrings of Arcane Acuity
Anklets of Translocation
Ring of Sustenance
Handy Haversack
Wand of Cure Light Wounds
Amulet of Tears
Muleback Cords
Ring of Continual Flame
Launcher
+1 Reinforced Segmented Adamantine Fullplate
+1 Extreme Shield
+1 Razor Sharp Adamantine Thinblade
Masterwork Light Crossbow (w/2 quivers of 20 bolts)
Total: 3,265 IM
 
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Hey @Goldfish, I would prefer a different spell loadout for Teana. I think that Hold Monster is better than Baleful Polymorph, because it fits better with her illusion/enchantment theme. Otherwise I'm also a fan of Duelward, which is fantastic for shutting down spellcasters!

And of course I prefer the "give AC to people" build for Asha, rather than the "have Riposte and Travel Devotion" one. But it seems that TNE and I will disagree whatever happens, so... You get to pick apparently :D
Asha's just a secondary character anyway, so I won't mind if my build vanishes into the ether. And she can can always take Riposte or Allied Defense in five levels anyway (I suspect her next feat will be Daring Outlaw).
 
Hey @Goldfish, I would prefer a different spell loadout for Teana. I think that Hold Monster is better than Baleful Polymorph, because it fits better with her illusion/enchantment theme. Otherwise I'm also a fan of Duelward, which is fantastic for shutting down spellcasters!

And of course I prefer the "give AC to people" build for Asha, rather than the "have Riposte and Travel Devotion" one. But it seems that TNE and I will disagree whatever happens, so... You get to pick apparently :D
Asha's just a secondary character anyway, so I won't mind if my build vanishes into the ether. And she can can always take Riposte or Allied Defense in five levels anyway (I suspect her next feat will be Daring Outlaw).
I went with Baleful Polymorph because it targets Fortitude rather than Will. Most of her spells require Will saves, so it gives her a good alternative attack option. It's also a good way to capture targets, as we've seen over the years. I want to send her out on adventures as often as possible to slowly level up, and it would be nice if she could grab creature loot on the side.

Duelward is really good at what it does, but it's a very niche spell. If only it didn't need to be cast ahead of time. Requiring a Standard Action to cast but only lasting one round/level seriously limits it's usefulness.

As for Asha, I just don't care about her build at all. She's not just a muggle, but an ancillary muggle. That said, she doesn't seem like the type who would prioritize buffing her allies over personal prowess.
 
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I went with Baleful Polymorph because it targets Fortitude rather than Will. Most of her spells require Will saves, so it gives her a good alternative attack option. It's also a good way to capture targets, as we've seen over the years. I want to send her out on adventures as often as possible to slowly level up, and it would be nice if she could grab creature loot on the side.

Duelward is really good at what it does, but it's a very niche spell. If only it didn't need to be cast ahead of time. Requiring a Standard Action to cast but only lasting one round/level seriously limits it's usefulness.

As for Asha, I just don't care about her build at all. She's not just a muggle, but an ancillary muggle. That said, she doesn't seem like the type who would prioritize buffing her allies over personal prowess.
Good point about Asha. She is a little too selfish for that, yeah.

How about Mind Fog instead of Baleful Polymorph? It's an excellent Will-killer and synergises quite well with her other spells.
Or how about just taking Alter Fortune as a level 3 spell to make sure something like Dominate Person gets through?
 
Good point about Asha. She is a little too selfish for that, yeah.

How about Mind Fog instead of Baleful Polymorph? It's an excellent Will-killer and synergises quite well with her other spells.
Or how about just taking Alter Fortune as a level 3 spell to make sure something like Dominate Person gets through?
If I was going to select a 5th level spell targeting Will, it would be Feeblemind.

I do like Alter Fortune for her, though. I'll miss Major Image, but Alter Fortune would fit her build really well.
 
Goldfish, don't dump Major Image! Dump Fly!
Major Image is extremely fluffy, and open to many creative uses. She can always Alter Self if she wants to fly or something.

EDIT: I mean that she can use Alter Self through her item (she has a Greater Ribbon, doesn't she?).
 
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Final version of the latest level ups, I think.

[] Teana Level Up
-[] Class: Shadowcraft Mage
-[] Skills (8 Points): +1 Concentration, +1 Knowledge (Arcana), +1 Professor (Instructor), +1 Spellcraft, +4 Hide
-[] Spells:
--[] Cantrip: Amanuensis
---[] Retrained: Resistance >>> Detect Poison
--[] 1st level:
---[] Retrained: Magic Missile >>> Nerveskitter
--[] 2nd level: Elemental Dart
---[] Retrained: Combust >>> Detect Thoughts, Spectral Hand >>> Blindness/Deafness
--[] 3rd level: Alter Fortune
---[] Retrained: Fly >>> Major Image
--[] 4th level: Assay Spell Resistance
--[] 5th level: Baleful Polymorph
---[] Retrained: Teleport >>> Shadow Evocation

[] Theon Level Up
-[] Class: +1 Mystic Ranger
-[] Improved Combat Style (Archery): Manyshot
-[] Skills (8 points): +1 Knowledge(Dungeoneering), +1 Knowledge(Nature), +1 Spot, +1 Survival, +2 Knowledge(Arcana), +2 Knowledge(The Planes)
-[] Spell Loadout:
--[] Level 0: Cure Minor Wounds, Light, Mending, Purify Food and Drink (4/day)
--[] Level 1: Guided Shot, Hawkeye, Hunter's Mercy, Primal Hunter (3+1/day)
--[] Level 2: Aquatic Cavalry, Primal Instinct, Swift Haste(2+1/day)
--[] Level 3: Arrowsplit, Fickle Winds, Find the Gap(2+1/day)

[] Asha Level Up
-[] Class: +1 Rogue
-[] Alternate Class Feature: Trap Sense >>> Penetrating Strike
-[] Retrained Feats: Sidestep Charge >>> Combat Expertise, Dodge >>> Deadly Defense, Weapon Focus (Handaxe) >>> Riposte
-[] Skills (10 points): +1 Balance, +1 Bluff, +1 Intimidate, +1 Profession (Sailor), +1 Spot, +1 Swim, +1 Tumble, +3 Sense Motive
 
@DragonParadox Just reminding about those stats so we can spend today building EVEN MORE PCS!

ASWaH! The Spreadsheet Quest!

No, okay. To be fair, we do that to ourselves. There are other... offenders. Maybe even worse ones.
 
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