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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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I am sure that you are not the first one to mention soul surgery. With Lya present, manipulation on that order is not only possible, but probably inevitable, since it is the kind of thing she would do just to see that she could, and because it would be a good thing to do.

Problem is that Snowfire leans really hard on the side of DF not being cheesed by D&D magic. He lets D&D have its flat-out conceptual level effects, which is a really big plus since it means Viserys and Co. can just do shit that is frankly impossible in-setting, but he'll still err on saying "Lya might be able to do it, she could also fail". I mean you don't create what amounts to an Outsider, y'know, those things Gods made, without having a decent idea of what the hell you are doing by that point, to say nothing of having multiple bodies linked to one soul and mind simultaneously. I'd bet on Lya.

A faster and more long-term fix is to disseminate D&D style magic in the DF verse, create a magical institution (maybe teach it to Harry, so that he can pass it on and hopefully create a network of schools with early detection of those who demonstrate magical ability).

I mean obvious this could just create more issues than it solves since now all those magic users who used it to break rules they didn't know existed can just freely do those same things, and grow bolder and bolder, as we've seen demonstrated in our own world, but having the introduction controlled could give mages part of a sophisticated magical society options that hadn't existed before, which isn't something to dismiss lightly.
 
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Robotninja said:
First, Viserys has tons of experience dealing with black magic users. Not the exact sort that the council deals with, but when you have dealt with at least 3 cities worth of evil dark magic users you grow a bit jaded. Yes, he has seen the blackest of magics and what the worst of people can do with it. He has enough experience with that to make even senior wardens take note.
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Black Magic in DF is different. And yes, that matters. Viserys has, from the WC's point of view, a vast amount of experience with beings of the Nevernever and other supernatural monsters. He doesn't have any experience with what DF Black Magic actually is.

Robotninja said:
Third, he can probably get the Merlin to show him one of the edge cases and get the whole lecture of "Dark magic is always tainting them" and then use magic to cure that taint from a willing subject.
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And this idea really needs to go away. It's not that simple. Certainly not for Viserys, and it would be a challenge to Lya on a scale that I'm finding hard to find an apt comparison. The issue here is the metaphysics, and how I've merged them (yes, merged). There isn't really an effective solution to Black Magic that can be put in place by Viserys, and any one that Lya came up with would come with its own extremely serious downsides. To express a moment on this:

Crake said:
Problem is that Snowfire leans really hard on the side of DF not being cheesed by D&D magic. He lets D&D have its flat-out conceptual level effects, which is a really big plus since it means Viserys and Co. can just do shit that is frankly impossible in-setting, but he'll still err on saying "Lya might be able to do it, she could also fail". I mean you don't create what amounts to an Outsider, y'know, those things Gods made, without having a decent idea of what the hell you are doing by that point, to say nothing of having multiple bodies linked to one soul and mind simultaneously. I'd bet on Lya.
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Whilst D&D casters can pull of some pretty incredible shit, they're in some ways actually more limited than DF Wizards in terms of pure utility. Also, a minor point of order. Outsiders aren't made by Gods. They're created from the background of the plane of existence that a soul goes to when it passes into the afterlife. It takes time, and the process is always different, but that's basically how their population continues. And it's...not so much that Lya might fail - which she could. There are other consequences, and I can't explain them because Viserys literally doesn't have the type of mindset needed to put it all the little pieces together. Lya does.

Crake said:
A faster and more long-term fix is to disseminate D&D style magic in the DF verse, create a magical institution (maybe teach it to Harry, so that he can pass it on and hopefully create a network of schools with early detection of those who demonstrate magical ability).
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I'm going to come right out and tell you that this isn't viable under how I've merged the metaphysics. Not even necessarily for practical reasons. Or perhaps more clearly, for a different sort of practical reasons. Naomi, as an example, is going to be taught DF magic. Not D&D-verse. Largely because Viserys doesn't know how to teach the sort of magic that DF Wizards use, but some other reasons too. Their magic comes from outside of them, power brought in and translated into formula to create a result.

Viserys is his magic. It's part of him, and his spells come from that power bound up in his blood. It's why he was able to throw around spells without giving a crap in the middle of a Circle in his fight against the Fomor High Noble.
 
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Snowfire said:
Black Magic in DF is different. And yes, that matters. Viserys has, from the WC's point of view, a vast amount of experience with beings of the Nevernever and other supernatural monsters. He doesn't have any experience with what DF Black Magic actually is.



And this idea really needs to go away. It's not that simple. Certainly not for Viserys, and it would be a challenge to Lya on a scale that I'm finding hard to find an apt comparison. The issue here is the metaphysics, and how I've merged them (yes, merged). There isn't really an effective solution to Black Magic that can be put in place by Viserys, and any one that Lya came up with would come with its own extremely serious downsides. To express a moment on this:



Whilst D&D casters can pull of some pretty incredible shit, they're in some ways actually more limited than DF Wizards in terms of pure utility. Also, a minor point of order. Outsiders aren't made by Gods. They're created from the background of the plane of existence that a soul goes to when it passes into the afterlife. It takes time, and the process is always different, but that's basically how their population continues. And it's...not so much that Lya might fail - which she could. There are other consequences, and I can't explain them because Viserys literally doesn't have the type of mindset needed to put it all the little pieces together. Lya does.



I'm going to come right out and tell you that this isn't viable under how I've merged the metaphysics. Not even necessarily for practical reasons.
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It's your story--and at this point, any thing you say becomes "lines drawn vis a vis Snowfire on some stuff Jim Butcher said". Even though JB has proven inconsistent before, and sure you can justify that however you want by saying "the parameters of the situation these characters were in changed so that's why X".

But a fair enough counterpoint is "WG said so" which you've used before, so alright.
 
@Snowfire, Viserys should carry around a few hundred pounds of Adamantine, Mithral, and Cold Iron at all times for sheer utility, just like he tends to carry all miscellaneous magic items with him just in case he might need them. Does Harry fancy a new sword?
 
Also that reply about Outsiders--TOMATO TOMATO, literally. In canon Ao made the universe, set the ground rules, and he said "this is how Outsiders form". Godly magic stems from the same framework, mantles worn by directly interfacing with it. It's intelligent design.

In ASWaH that's murkier, it doesn't seem like anyone is in charge, so for the purposes of your retort you are technically correct, which is the worst kind of correct when it's you.
 
Duesal said:
@Snowfire, Viserys should carry around a few hundred pounds of Adamantine, Mithral, and Cold Iron at all times for sheer utility, just like he tends to carry all miscellaneous magic items with him just in case he might need them. Does Harry fancy a new sword?
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Bob sees a Valyrian Steel sword.

Bob: "It's made out of demons!"

Viserys: "Devils, actually. Not even real Devils, if you must know, but artificially produced Devil blood infused into tainted Hell Iron purified by Dragon's flame and Wishcraft."

Bob: "...what?"
 
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For some strange reason, I had this thought of Viserys's inexperience with warlocks using BLACK MAGICtm​ being some form of convoluted revenge scheme by Maelor.

Merlin: "In order to be taken seriously you must bring us 20 warlock bear asses."

Harry: "Wait. Are you asking him to find 20 warlocks, 20 bears, or 20 black magic using bears?"

Merlin: "Whichever is hardest to grind find."

Viserys: "... I'll be back shortly."
 
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Goldfish said:
Bob sees a Valyrian Steel sword.

Bob: "It's made out of demons!"

Viserys: "Devils, actually. Not even real Devils, if you must know, but artificially produced Devil blood infused into tainted Hell Iron purified by Dragon's flame."

Body: "...what?"
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"...and then engineered to grow parts and infusions of Primordial Evil or Primordial Good, set to purpose with engines of Law and Chaos to drive forth the industry of Empires."

Bob: "W-what?"

Viserys: "It's like you people don't even want to learn!"

Harry: :facepalm:
 
Goldfish said:
Bob sees a Valyrian Steel sword.

Bob: "It's made out of demons!"

Viserys: "Devils, actually. Not even real Devils, if you must know, but artificially produced Devil blood infused into tainted Hell Iron purified by Dragon's flame and Wishcraft."

Bob: "...what?"
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He would totally carry some Valyrian Steel weapons as backup. You never know when you'll need to empower minions against surprise!Others.
 
Duesal said:
@Snowfire, Viserys should carry around a few hundred pounds of Adamantine, Mithral, and Cold Iron at all times for sheer utility, just like he tends to carry all miscellaneous magic items with him just in case he might need them. Does Harry fancy a new sword?
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Viserys has a bunch of special materials in the Satchel of the Crimson Wyrm (I think that's what it's called, right?) so there will be some fun things coming out of it this arc. A new sword may well be one of those, but something to consider is that Harry has spent the last several years not doing any training with one. He's used to using his staff, shield bracelet, blasting rod, etc. Adding a sword to the mix would just complicate things.

Goldfish said:
Bob sees a Valyrian Steel sword.

Bob: "It's made out of demons!"

Viserys: "Devils, actually. Not even real Devils, if you must know, but artificially produced Devil blood infused into tainted Hell Iron purified by Dragon's flame and Wishcraft."

Body: "...what?"
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Please note that as of Horde Thief 26, Bob is getting to meet Dark Sister. I may or may not write the interaction as an interlude between Arc 2 and 3. Probably won't, as I lack firm enough voices for DS and Bob, but still. Just imagine. And take into account that Dark Sister is as old or older than Bob.
 
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Snowfire said:
Please note that as of Horde Thief 26, Bob is getting to meet Dark Sister. I may or may not write the interaction as an interlude between Arc 2 and 3. Probably won't, as I lack firm enough voices for DS and Bob, but still. Just imagine. And take into account that Dark Sister is as old or older than Bob.
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Bob: "Baby, you've got a beautiful tang. And that pommel! Hubba hubba!"

Dark Sister: "Die in a fire, cretin."
 
Snowfire said:
Viserys has a bunch of special materials in the Satchel of the Crimson Wyrm (I think that's what it's called, right?) so there will be some fun things coming out of it this arc. A new sword may well be one of those, but something to consider is that Harry has spent the last several years not doing any training with one. He's used to using his staff, shield bracelet, blasting rod, etc. Adding a sword to the mix would just complicate things xD
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They should be in the cloak. The Satchel, while good, is more or less obsolete in comparison. The cloak has zero weight limits and even has a handy haversack effect. In any case, even if Dresden doesn't necessarily use it, at this point I don't see Viserys not offering up a sword as a gift. He's a generous guy when it comes to his friend.
Snowfire said:
Trying to hand Dresden a Valyrian Steel sword is quite possibly one of the most terrible ideas ever. Given, you know, the Winter Mantle.
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I'm just noting that Viserys has the swords, you'll notice that I'm not advocating for handing Dresden a metal that attacks him on a conceptual level. If Dresden gets anything it should be adamantine.
 
Mimas said:
For some strange reason, I had this thought of Viserys's inexperience with warlocks using BLACK MAGIC *tm being some form of convoluted revenge scheme by Maelor.

Merlin: "In order to be taken seriously you must bring us 20 warlock bear asses."

Harry: "Wait. Are you asking him to find 20 warlocks, 20 bears, or 20 black magic using bears?"

Merlin: "Whichever is hardest to grind find."

Viserys: "... I'll be back shortly."
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Viserys: "Maelor... good to see you."

Maelor: "Yeah... I mean, it was hectic for awhile there--"

Viserys, after handing Maelor a list: pop

Maelor, after reading: "--Motherfucker!"
 
@Azel I was talking about delaying the war until after Westeros, but if you're so certain (and the strategic picture seems to spell that (assuming the Illithids act rationally) then I suppose there is no choice but to make a preemptive strike. I just hope we dont wake a sleeping giant, as I'm pretty sure we're not ready yet to chase down the Illithids all the way to Deep One Central.

We could secure the Narrow Sea and buy ourselves 6-12 months or so of relative peace if we wreck their "industrial" holdings... that sounds uncofortably close to japanese ww2 planning, but it should be enough to take over Westeros I suppose.

Firmly on board with the Empire wide festival idea, we need to start getting on integration pronto. Short list: Melee, Braavosi style plays, Archery contest, Myr-Tyrosh style plays, tourney, magic show, ESPN like comentary about the Empire and news stuff by a pannel of likeables (maybe we could even push Waymar as the face of chivalry in an interview! The party wpuld get a kick out of it), eastern style gladiatory combat, man, the list just keeps on growing.

The potential for interviews and round tables alone is enough to make one salivate. We could have question time with Emperor Viserys in real time! Anserwring questions from people from Lys to the Wall.

Pentos: My guess is they must be shitting their pants right now and wont even put up resostance to Braavos. They'll just shit their pants again when they realize they were conquered by the Imperium.

Ser Darry: Yes please.
 
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@bigbow comes from a happy place.

Man, you keep catching up and then falling behind! We seriously miss you over here. :cry:

Are the words for Purple Days at least flowing?
 
bigbow said:
@Azel I was talking about delaying the war until after Westeros, but if you're so certain (and the strategic picture seems to spell that (assuming the Illithids act rationally) then I suppose there is no choice but to make a preemptive strike. I just hope we dont wake a sleeping giant, as I'm pretty sure we're not ready yet to chase down the Illithids all the way to Deep One Central.

We could secure the Narrow Sea and buy ourselves 6-12 months or so of relative peace if we wreck their "industrial" holdings... that sounds uncofortably close to japanese ww2 planning, but it should be enough to take over Westeros I suppose.

Firmly on board with the Empire wide festival idea, we need to start getting on integration pronto. Short list: Melee, Braavosi style plays, Archery contest, Myr-Tyrosh style plays, tourney, magic show, ESPN like comentary about the Empire and news stuff by a pannel of likeables (maybe we could even push Waymar as the face of chivalry in an interview! The party wpuld get a kick out of it), eastern style gladiatory combat, man, the list just keeps on growing.

The potential for interviews and round tables alone is enough to make one salivate. We could have question time with Emperor Viserys in real time! Anserwring questions from people from Lys to the Wall.

Pentos: My guess is they must be shitting their pants right now and wont even put up resostance to Braavos. They'll just shit their pants again when they realize they were conquered by the Imperium.

Ser Darry: Yes please.
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For the celebrations, we should have massive parades mixed in. Everyone loves a good parade to help swallow all the propaganda. :p
 
Damn, I was hoping for a technical truth "Met a True Warlock? I convinced him to apprentice under me and turned him from a Warlock into a Sorcerer!"

I guess we'll have to go with "I would have, but I was too busy freeing an entire continent from hostile invaders. If Wizard Dresden wouldn't mind me tagging along for his next Hunt then I could answer in the affirmative that I have met this particular brand of Law Breaking Magic User. In the mean time, my relevant experience has to do with managing X number of magic users in a nation of Y size and preventing the X from turning the Y into victims. Which is what the initiative I'm suggesting is about, not about how to handle the Z number of Warlocks you all are currently dealing with. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure as the saying goes. Want to Soul Gaze so I can prove my point?"
 
Crake said:
@bigbow comes from a happy place.

Man, you keep catching up and then falling behind! We seriously miss you over here. :cry:

Are the words for Purple Days at least flowing?
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Hey Crake! Yeah its been something of a struggle catching up these past few weeks. So much so I engaged Threadmark jumpdrive a lot more than I'm used to. I swear the Thread's update speed is growing even faster. Between you, @Azel and @LonelyWolf999 you've been keeping most of my core concerns alive so I've not felt the need (much) to start shouting from the waves. And the rest of the thread of course has been ASWAHing along so all is good.

Was a tiny bit dissapointed with DP for how he handled the Lys aftermath. It felt like the end of an important PC quest, the ones we do once a month or two, but not, you know, taking the Free City of Lys!

Purple Days is flowing (actually got an update up about... a week ago? Could be going faster, but between bureocratic woes and somewhat depleting motivation... eh. To be honest I'm tiring of writing ASOIAF (ironic given my earlier musings, I know). Just want to crack my teeth on something that feels new and most of all original, because I want to wrangle my own setting how I like it and not have to juggle a dozen canon characters that dont really serve any purpose to my narrative. ASOIAF has really been done to death by fanfics and quests all around (which is a good thing!) And writing about it doesnt hold the slark it used to. Dont know which way I'll jump yet after finishing Purple Days, as I've been thinking up settings faster than I can put them to words. Steampunk or Atompunk... Both have moderately developed worldbuilding that should be pretty fun to set a story in, but scopes differ.

Atompunk is more grandiouse from the get go, world ending asteroids, intrigue, and shiny chrome figther jets soaring through the skies. Steampunk one is a bit more personal though and the stakes take longer to really sink in. family secrets, victorian men in black, one badass train, and a definitive Hero's journey. I'm thinking the last one could be easier to publish succsesfully for a newbie.

How's your life? Recovered from the car stuff okay? Its nice to see you posting regularly again after that semi-kind-of hiatus.
 
Snowfire said:
It's almost comforting to see someone other than Karrin who's about the same height as you
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Man, I always thought Viserys was 1.7 m or so short, not counting every centimeter above 150.
Snowfire said:
The man might look like some fantastical portrait made flesh, but he wasn't one to be taken lightly.
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You know, I bet we certainly do have at least one robed wizard with a perfect snow-white beard and probably half moon spectacle too
Snowfire said:
If you felt charitable,
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It just stops?
Snowfire said:
You couldn't be sure how the circle around you might have affected a weaker working, when your greater ones had been…reduced.
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Huh, how does that work?
Snowfire said:
With it stopped, the Paranet will soon find itself under pressure in this continent like it has never been
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I'm not following the logic.
Snowfire said:
Black Magic in DF is different. And yes, that matters. Viserys has, from the WC's point of view, a vast amount of experience with beings of the Nevernever and other supernatural monsters. He doesn't have any experience with what DF Black Magic actually is.
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Except for the fact that daemons and demons (and I guess Devils too?) do literally corrupt on a conceptual level.
Snowfire said:
and any one that Lya came up with would come with its own extremely serious downsides
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Could the construct ritual work?
Snowfire said:
Viserys has a bunch of special materials in the Satchel of the Crimson Wyrm (I think that's what it's called, right?) so there will be some fun things coming out of it this arc. A new sword may well be one of those, but something to consider is that Harry has spent the last several years not doing any training with one. He's used to using his staff, shield bracelet, blasting rod, etc. Adding a sword to the mix would just complicate things.
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Should leave Naomi an hilarious amount of gear tho.

I mean, we casually equip random people with a few thousand IM, and he probably has all sorts of items in his dimensional pockets.

A humble healing belt (don't forget to set a password so others can't steal it!) would instantly make Naomi the best healer in the world, at least when it comes to non-maiming wounds.

If you want to make Naomi have a more lasting thing besides gear, you could:
- Lessons with a VS bastard sword of her own - hella focus for her workings, too, besides being a nigh indestructible magical sword for one to kill people with. But the bonding time here is great.
- A ridiculous proficiency with fire and fear magic. Transmutations in general?
- An odd taste for turtle soup.
- Oh, this could work perhaps: make her a Dragonfire Adept besides DF magic?


Yes, the satchel is a high grade bag of holding. It was responsible for solidifying us just carrying around a bunch of random stuff
 
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Also, really late to the discussion on this, but @Tomcost I'd suggest Chile as an option if you're still under employment-nation woes. We're kinda just puttering along but hey, its just a bus ride away. Could be a stop gap while you search for better options, as the price of living here has been getting absurd and nobody knows quite why. Probably more oligipoly's.
 
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