The Aesthetic discussion sometimes feels a bit silly. We're learning flight from first principles, and not idiots, so our planes should obviously have a bird-in-flight aesthetic, maybe dragon-in-flight if we feel like making a statement. It's logical, because we have actual sapient flying beings that can answer questions about how they fly, and we'd use that insight in the IC design process.

That is not to say we'd have actual flapping wings, that'd be impractical, but it does inform what the lines of the craft should look like. What we need in terms of must-have design elements are wings, a head and tail areas.
 
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Vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Dec 27, 2018 at 9:18 AM, finished with 219 posts and 10 votes.

  • [X] Plan Groundwork
    -[X] "I must admit some degree of ignorance on your order. Your goals are clear enough and laudable at that, so I'm not uninclined to offer some substantial aid, though..." Glance meaningfully to the maester. "There are some doubts about the company you keep."
    -[X] "If you would be so kind to tell me more about your order and yourself, I'm sure that we can find some common ground."
 
but lower maneuverability would imply crashing and it definitely wouldn't do that.
?? It means flying like an eagle instead of a hummingbird.
Take a pencil and try to balance it on the tip of your finger, then you have a rough idea how much skill it would take to make that thing hover in place
See, this pretty much tells me it couldn't be Perfect maneuverability.

Hell, it most definitely can't turn in the spot unless it's going very slowly, so by the very definition of Perfect (any Good) maneuverability it's not it.

Look:
  • Perfect: The creature can perform almost any aerial maneuver it wishes. It moves through the air as well as a human moves over smooth ground.
  • Good: The creature is very agile in the air (like a housefly or a hummingbird), but cannot change direction as readily as those with perfect maneuverability.
  • Average: The creature can fly as adroitly as a small bird.
  • Poor: The creature flies as well as a very large bird.
  • Clumsy: The creature can barely maneuver at all
The fact that it really needs a minimum forward speed to keep itself reasonably stable speaks that it is either Poor or Average. Height of which is bad, it's literally flying like a bird,
And I think I finally found something for the fighter that would please both sides of the argumen
I dig this one.

Not remotely fond of the sci-fi or jet designs.

The Weatherlight is also very nice. Sails can be said to assist in maneuvering or something, or just be deleted.

Having control surfaces instead of a pure vectored thrust aircraft sounds very reasonable.
what the ship looks like, I just want ya'll to stop limiting designs due to purely real-world engineering issues when we are handily bending the laws of physics over a barrel and having our way with them
Yeah, it'd help me a lot if I saw a magical plane instead of a jet fighter that we somehow built from scratch in two months.
 
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Yeah, it'd help me a lot if I saw a magical plane instead of a jet fighter that we somehow built from scratch in two months.
The problem with that is that Jet fighters are actually built with fairly sensible shapes. We have magical thrust instead of jets, but if it's performance is good enough there's literally no reason for us not to make something Jet shaped, because we actually know a ton about aerodynamics thanks to our ability to literally ask beings that can fly and/or are made of air about it.

Jets have the same major design elements any bird inspired vehicle we'd likely build has, namely wings with an aerodynamic shapes, and 'head' and 'tail' areas. So unless we completely throw sanity over board it will always look vaguely jet-like.
 
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@TotallyNotEvil, but it isn't a jet plane. It's shaped like one. You are arguing that it should be impossible to put together a plastic model of a F-15 without a few years and a doctorate in aeronautic engineering.

See all those hydraulic lines? We don't need any of those, because steering is done by magic.
See all those fuel lines, air intakes and outlets and all the other stuff? We don't need that either.

Because we are replacing this:
With this:

You are conflating the difficulty of putting together all that precision engineering that makes a real jet fly with somehow expecting it to be difficult to make a plane-shaped lump of metal that is held aloft and controlled by functional magic. It's trivial to put something into a mostly aerodynamic shape, especially as we have actual people who are capable of flight by wing-power to assist in the design. You can take a sheet of paper and make a delta-wing design reminiscent of a modern fighter jet.


You are looking at the easiest part of the design and are somehow maintaining it should be just as ridiculously hard as building a full scram-jet engine out of rocks and spit.
 
You are looking at the easiest part of the design and are somehow maintaining it should be just as ridiculously hard as building a full scram-jet engine out of rocks and spit.
I mean technically he's kinda right in that people IRL bumbled about with horrible, barely aerodynamic things for years, so it's not completely self evident. He's just completely failing to consider how many sources of practical knowledge about flight we have.
 
I mean technically he's kinda right in that people IRL bumbled about with horrible, barely aerodynamic things for years, so it's not completely self evident. He's just completely failing to consider how many sources of practical knowledge about flight we have.
I have to disagree here. Common wisdom among early glider designs had always been "wings are a good idea".
Which makes it all the more insane to say "wings are bad, we should avoid them".
 
I have to disagree here. Common wisdom among early glider designs had always been "wings are a good idea".
Which makes it all the more insane to say "wings are bad, we should avoid them".
Especially since we have a +14 modifier to knowledge: aeronautical engineering or whatever we're calling it; that's only two less than the absolute maximum a normal human could get in this system, so I am completely okay treating us as though we have a modern degree.
 
Especially since we have a +14 modifier to knowledge: aeronautical engineering or whatever we're calling it; that's only two less than the absolute maximum a normal human could get in this system, so I am completely okay treating us as though we have a modern degree.
Pretty much this. An airplane isn't that different in general layout from a dragon. And dragons fly.

So...
 
I can't say that I'm terribly invested in the apperence of our fighters. The huge flying fortresses don't need to worry about aerodynamics and so we can make them look however we want. The fighters actually need to concern themselves with that, however, so sacrifices for practicality are nessesary.
 
Part MMDXI: Strange Reflections
Strange Reflections

Twelfth Day of the Seventh Month 293 AC

"I must admit to knowing less than I would like of your order. Your goals are clear enough and laudable at that, so I'm not disinclined to offer some substantial aid, though..." Here you pause glancing meaningful at the trembling wreck of a maester, now no longer kept to at least a passable semblance of presentability. "There are some doubts about the company you keep."

Tobyn grunts in wordless agreement. It's clear the man does not feel at ease here and he distrusts you still, but just as clear that he is no longer of mind to strike the first blow after hearing the full tale of the Warrek's deeds. The Lantern Bearer does not seem the sort of man to care overmuch for formal contracts of honor, but he does have a sort of hardscrabble respect for keeping one's word born of a life where a broken promise can too easily be the difference between life and death. "So you need to know whose salt we eat before you can decide whether to help or spit on us, eh?"

You nod in agreement, carefully keeping back an amused smile he might misinterpret for mockery. Truth be told you find the bluntness charming after days of having to mentally peel back layers of Essosi formality to get to the kernel of truth within.

"The first thing you aught to know about us Lantern Bearers is that there ain't one of us that rules the others. There's some more senior and some more newcome to the fight, and the latter listen to the former, but our oaths are to young Lord Brightsmile and he don't meddle with how we keep the dark back... so long as we don't get the fat merchant's hackles up too often at least."

"Such fun memories..." Dany hisses. "Remember when we had to explain to the Sealord why a bit of fire and light in the sky was better than demons running loose?"

The Reacher looks at first startled, then disbelieving, though as the tale unfolds, bar the politically awkward details, he comes to accept it. Perhaps unconsciously some of the tenseness goes out of his shoulders. "We usually work in pairs, master and apprentice, or those that used to be that. More than that catches the eye, so we only come together at need, which usually means someone else's fucked up..."

"And likely suffered worse than death for it," you nod along grimly, familiar enough with the ways of the Deep Ones.

"Aye," Tobyn spits in the general direction of the sea. He hesitates a moment. "You ain't much like I thought you'd be..."

"I should hope not, considering the sorts of rumors going round alehouses and winesinks," you reply dryly.

The man looks you up and down, visibly considering his answer and just as obviously changing his mind, at least to your eyes. "We work with the Citadel of course, hard not to when they are the ones to read old moldering words and pick apart at monsters' guts to figure out how best to stab 'em. I favor archmaester Ebrose of the silver rod and mask most, for a fighting man always needs a healer, but I have taken help and done favors for the others, too."

"So who sent you here?" you prompt. "Who sent you here into the teeth of a dangerous fight to free a damn poisoner?"

Tobyn sighs, hands on his knees. "It was archmaester Prestan. Copper are his rod and mask..."

"So a historian, then?" you half-ask. It had been a long time since you learned what metals went with what subjects, and you trust lore drawn from vague childhood memories less than most. "How did he contact you?"

At this question the Lantern Bearer scowls ferociously, all but confirming your guess that some sort of magic must have been involved, a means he obviously wants to keep secret.

Rather than press the matter Dany tries a different path: "What did he tell you, precisely? What were the foes you were to fight?"

"The message... said the old lord was enthralled by the Deep Ones and I should be careful that the maester hadn't been too. He said to watch out for the Westerlander sorcerers too fer some reason, but that I shouldn't get into a fight unless 'it couldn't be helped'. He made special note that Warrek here wasn't worth a fight with the Lannisters for his own sweet self, but added that he wouldn't weep if I gutted one of the shields without them knowing who did it."

The young maester's face grows even paler at the off-handed announcement of how little his fellow conspirators cared about his fate. Perhaps you should make a special note to the Lord Commander to watch out for him, lest he let foes through the Wall by sheer credulity.

"What of Lord Brune?" you ask, turning your attention back to the grizzled Lantern Bearer.

"If he really had belonged to the godsdamned squids it would have been a mercy to kill him, no need to ask it of me." The sound of a small stone being scrunched under the iron-soled boot briefly fills the air. "The son of a bitch just lied to me and hoped I'd do his killing on my own so I couldn't swear he'd put me up to it later."

"Thus gaining himself another agent if you had gone along with it," Dany points out darkly.

"The Hells I would!" the warrior bursts out.

"She means the archmaester would have blackmailed you," you explain in a carefully neutral tone. "Once someone has that sort of hook it's hard to pull free and only gets harder in doing the bidding of whoever holds the leash."

"Yeah... yeah, I can see that," Tobyn agrees unwillingly. "I'd like to think I wouldn't have gone along, but there's no real ways to know which way you will turn at a crossroad until it's in front of you, is there?"

A rather philosophical point... Then again, perhaps not. It would take more than a strong sword arm to fight Deep Ones for years and come out sane.

What do you do next?

[] Ask more questions
-[] Write in

[] Offer covert help to the Lantern Bearers
-[] Write in

[] Write in


OOC: Some very good rolls for social combat this turn so you got quite a lot out of him.
 
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Hmmm, maybe have them enchanted to reveal magic in the light cast by them? Maybe remove invisibility as well....
 
So you all realise that now a sucker with poor social skills knows that Lord Brune works for us, right?
And he's certainly going to be spreading the news to others in his order if he tells them this tale as a warning.
 
So you all realise that now a sucker with poor social skills knows that Lord Brune works for us, right?
And he's certainly going to be spreading the news to others in his order if he tells them this tale as a warning.

Well he clearly knows how to keep secrets, as demonstrated in the update when he refused to reveal his means of communication. It's just that he does not know how to do so while being inconspicuous.
 
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So do we loot the Lantern Bearers with offers of healing without owed favors/money, material resources, and access to the SD library/lore?

It sounds like it's a generally loose organization that's been somewhat forced to work with the Maesters due to lack of options. While some of the Maesters seem to be legit, we have direct proof that others are taking advantage of this system for their own ends.
 
So do we loot the Lantern Bearers with offers of healing without owed favors/money, material resources, and access to the SD library/lore?

It sounds like it's a generally loose organization that's been somewhat forced to work with the Maesters due to lack of options. While some of the Maesters seem to be legit, we have direct proof that others are taking advantage of this system for their own ends.
I agree. This should make clear that the Maesters view them as nothing more than disposable pawns, while at the same time showing them that there's a much better option. I think we should show this guy SD - we're not going to get him to trust us in a day, but our city serves as an excellent method of shocking people out of their preconceptions. Letting him investigate while we handle Lord Brune should make him pliable enough to introduce us to his comrades or the Hightowers, and we can pound out a permenant arrangement from there.
 
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