Well, he could spend it on ships and guns. He kinda has a manpower crunch, and the obvious answer is slaves, to the point it is assumed any major construction like the pyramids must have directly involved slaves. It is probably safe to say conflict with spain/Charles is inevitable, because he has a shortage of willing manpower, and the obvious answer is slaves, which we also just so happen to be a market our navy has sworn to strangle, which would massively hobble the growth of new Spain. Plus, with our money value being tied to gold, the sending of wealth could itself be a weapon against those denying growth.
A Reforged World (NO SV, You are King of Italy, in a Greatly Changed World)
- Thread starter Magoose
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You know..this entire Charles vs Luciano situation reminds me of that Movie: Prince of Egypt.
Why would you say Spain and not Mexico/New Spain?
Why would you say Spain and not Mexico/New Spain?
There won't be a War of Spanish Succession if Charles stays in America. If Charles refuses the throne then it goes to his younger brother Ferdinand who will rule Spain and Austria and likely become Holy Roman Emperor. If Ferdinand dies soon, which is highly unlikely, then it'll go to the eldest daughter Eleanor. And if SHE dies without heir then it goes to our wife Isabella, making Italy a true Roman Empire that inherits the HRE.
Hapsburg succession is gonna be super interesting. Ferdinand won't have a kid til 1526 and if Louis II dies without a heir then he inherits Hungary and Croatia through his wife Anna. Eleanor has a son and a daughter with her uncle, the King of Portugal but the son will die within a year and is far behind in the Portuguese line of succession. If Manuel dies as OTL then Eleanor will be married to Francis I and if she has a son with him then that son will have a claim to Spain.
Overall very messy succession claims but there shouldn't be a war for the near future.
...Fair. Especially since mainland spain's role depends exclusively on whenever or not Charles decides to maintain control by heading back. 😅
Though regaurdless he is going to likely have much more interest in the new world than Spain, given the former is his personal project...
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Charles doesn't have the economic expertise to understand that, which means he will think sending a bunch of gold Into the waiting teeth of the Italian Navy is a bad thing. If we establish dominion over the western African sea and strangle the slave trade, Charles doesn't have slaves to mine his lands and build, and doesn't trust his shipments of gold to not be plundered. We essentially box him in with his wealth in this scenario. Sure, he could give money to mercenaries to make war with us, but it'll be several turns before that, which is time to fix our army and fortify our borders.
So, what I'm getting out of this is that we should start prepping some assassinations.
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Can we please stop implying that Italy is going to become some new Roman empire garbage nation? We don't use slaves, we don't invade other nation for glory, we don't kill would be Archimedes of the 1500s in the name of conquest.
The Roman Empire can be entirely different where it doesn't need slaves so yeah
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Hm, would people ,now or in the future, call us the UK or just Italy?
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- parker colorado
I wonder if we could start trading with the Incas, prop up their empire to counter Charles.
Egypt managed to build the Pyramids without slaves. Just a highly motivated workforce, proud of their prestigious posts.
Rome built their roads with the might, discipline, and engineering skill of their military.
The industrial revolution done so off the back of the wage workers and tech.
Rome built their roads with the might, discipline, and engineering skill of their military.
The industrial revolution done so off the back of the wage workers and tech.
Unlikely, even if they survive long enough. The Incan Empire spans the Andes...but those are on the Western Coast of South America. So unless we find the route around Cape Horn early, there is pretty much zero chance to trade with them without crossing through Spanish Colonies and I can tell you that THAT won't fly with Charles.
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Small minute problem, they are quite literly on the other side of the world and while I know the Italian navy is second to none, the costs alone and logistics would be monumental with little to no gain. Like I know slavery is bad and what Charles is doing is bad but Luciano is not superman capable of fixing every wrong in this world, he already did a herculean task with destroying the North African maratine slave trade but now going of into the Atlantic(or even pacific) and conquering West-Africa at great expense both economic, manpower and time just to stop the slave trade while we still have to deal with our neighbors and local politics would be unwise. Lets accept our limits and focus on what we can realisticly do instead of going after white elephants.
Magoose
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The Italian Kingdom.
It would only be called the uki if there is not a disunified.
… Leonardos journal has entered the chat.
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There is just no escaping it being called Roman, like the Roman Empire was a good thing, is there? I'd trade a few fingers for Florence to have won the vote for capital instead. Then we might have a chance at Florinean empire or an Italian empire.
I'm pretty sure the much discussed plan to conquer Gibralter, parts of the Spanish Canaries, Cape Verde, and the Bissagos Islands is going to piss him off anyway, as is the collective intension to fire into the gut of slavery wherever our muskets and cannons can reach.
We aren't going to conquer west Africa, we are going to seize a series of islands for naval basing to create a supply chain to project fleet power into the southern Atlantic. Can we annihilate slavery? Probably not, but we can make sure slaves aren't making it to the new world and new world gold isn't making it into the hands of slavers.
On the upside, with us weakening the African slave nations this way, Suleiman might decide it's wiser to set his sights on the bounties of Western and southern Africa instead of fighting wars with the powerful nations of europe.
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Sure, but even then, I'm not sure if supplying the Inca is logistically feasible.
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Leonardo could have given us precise intructions on how to build a dreadnought, tools included, and it would still not lessen the economic/political and manpower cost of going to war with the Atlantic slave trade, something which we will be alone in ( most monarchs don't even believe their own citizens deserve rights much less a slave in Africa or America) and fighting against uber Habsburgs and any other nation with colonies. It doesn't matter if you have the most expensive and shinest toys if you're outnumbered, friendless and embargo'd.
You will still piss off all the nations who have colonies and the african kingdoms who are depandent on this trade. We might even face opposition in parlement where more 'reasonable' politicain will overrule Luciano and force him not to piss off the whole of Europe and tank the economy.
Why would he waste his time on Africa? There was a reason why the Ottoman court ignored Sub-Sharan Africa because of geography and a focus on mediterean sea. More likely he sees which way the wind is blowing in Europe and wants to reclaim his land he lost to Italy and maybe this time with a Europe who will look the other way.
Magoose
SV's Questing Fanatic
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While true I can certianly say that you are correct.
But I'm also saying that things are remarkably more in your favor economically then you think.
And you are not nearly as diplomatically isolated.
True but we are not friendless for we have allies that have nothing to lose and everything to gain,I am talking about the slaves themselves,for a chained man given a chance to smash those chains and be free...there's not a more dangerous person in the world then that.
Speaking of Guns, would you say we have Flintflock Muskets of the mid 1700s? Flintflock Rifles of the British during the Napoleonic Wars?
Since this is an action does that mean that the Treaty of Tordesillas is defunct?
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I mean... was it ever even enforced? It was kinda ignored by everyone not named Portugal and Spain and even then they ignored it when they wanted it.
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It isn't, I'm more saying we probably piss off Charles next turn regardless if things are headed into the direction they seem to be, rather than chiming in for supporting local americans.
This time? When was the last time you read rebirth? Europe abandoned us. Gotz rallied a peasant crusade single handedly and ultimately it was still more italian victories than his aid that caused Suleiman to sue for peace.
Umm. There is only Charles empire in north America. He's pushed everyone else out I believe. There aren't any african colonies other than some Spanish Islands. We are going to piss off the spanish, and oh look, there monarch is thousands of miles away and will have difficulty coordinating a response when his inferior navy takes loses and loses vital supply routes to the new world.
What reasonable politicians? There all radicals. Radical Grazinis in favor of following the kings will. Radical moderati who hate war, but hate the slave trade more do to their high former navy membership. Radical Republicans who believe in freedom. I think your underestimating the support this is going to receive when the two heroes of the Italian people put there backing behind it.
Yes, we just made a bundle off the Hungary and Ottoman conflict from both leaders purchases, on top of our usual trade profits. Suleiman doesn't have the munitions production to supply a thousand Grazini Rifles on repeated campaigns himself. He's going to remain a good source of income for a few years minimum.
Britain loves us, and a cut of our trade profits as the only nation in Europe with access to the bosphorus will be enough to get the. To send a few fleets to shore up Mediterranean trade while we shift our fleet into the Atlantic.
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It took a century for other powers to join the New World so the Catholic world followed it with only France rebelling against the treaty because they're France and they don't care about papal bulls when it doesn't benefit them and are the bad boys of Catholic Europe. England, the Netherlands and Sweden were all Protestant nations so they don't care.
If we do ever launch an expedition I wouldn't mind settling in Argentina, Eastern America or Canada.