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A Different Breed (Warhammer 29K)

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To really hit the nail in the coffin regarding whether Plasma Weapons are Energy Weapons, here is the list of what are considered energy weapons on Lexicanum:
Article:

Energy weapon


The following is a list of energy-based weapons. This does not include chemical, kinetic, or psychic energy weapons.

Contents

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  1. Distortion Weapons
  2. Flame Weapons
  3. Gauss Weapons
  4. Laser Weapons
  5. Plasma Weapons
  6. Melta Weapons
  7. Tesla Weapons
  8. Sonic Weapons
  9. Related Articles

Distortion Weapons

Distortion Weapons utilize energy to create a space-warp space interface. This interface is inherently unstable, and this instability destroys the target. The Distort Cannon or D-Cannon is an example of this type of weapon.

Flame Weapons

Main Article: Flame Weapon
Flame Weapons are devices which gout forth huge quantities of fire or burning substances. They consist of two components, the fuel projector and the ignition flame. These weapons are quite effective in close urban/jungle combat and assault on enemy trenches, bunkers or fortifications. Also the most secure weapon in a boarding action since it represent almost 0 chance to penetrate the hull causing explosive decompression.

Gauss Weapons

Main Article: Gauss Weaponry
Gauss Weapons are used by the Necrons and are horrifying devices. They strip back the targets molecules one by one, literally flaying their layers off in a matter of seconds. It is highly effective against anything, including thick armour, gradually peeling the layers back.

Laser Weapons

Main Article: Las Weapon
Laser is derived from the acronym: L.A.S.E.R or Light amplification by stimulated emission of radiation. These weapons use a coherent beam of light to cause explosive damage due to radical temperature shift and differentiation.

Plasma Weapons

Main Article: Plasma Weapon
Plasma Weapons operate by converting normal gasses or fuel materials into a highly energised state of matter known as plasma. This material is then encased in a magnetic containment field that prevents the plasma "bolt" from dissipating before reaching it's target. Once the plasma comes into contact with a solid material, the magnetic field ruptures, venting superheated plasma onto the target. The enemy is then vaporised.

Melta Weapons

Main Article: Melta Weapon
Melta Weapons fire a sub-molecular thermal blast which effectively vaporises anything it comes into contact with. In a matter of seconds the target is turned into molten slag and steaming vapour, making it a fearsome weapon.

Tesla Weapons

Main Article: Tesla Weapon
Tesla Weapons unlease bolts of living lightning that crackles from foe to foe after hitting its target, charring flesh and melting armour. Tesla bolts feed off the energy released by the destruction, the lightning becomming more furious with every fresh arc.

Sonic Weapons

Main Article: Sonic Weapon
A Sonic Weapon utilizes contrasting harmonics to create a devastating vibration in the target.

Notice something familiar?
Alratan said:
Tau plasma weapons have significant recoil and can punch right through multiple targets.

The surface of the sun isn't fusing, which plasma weapons apparently are, which means they're at about 160 g/cm cubed, or twenty times the density of steel, which is the density of the fusing core of the sun.



Depends on the range at which absorption happens. Interesting that this suggests that Sunblaster projectiles are guided.
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Do you actually have a source for that? Every other description of Plasma weapons I've seen describes them as exploding on contact with their target and that remains consistent with all the descriptions of Plasma Weapons we've seen in this quest.
 
We can just use graviton thruster lances as our standard heavy weapon for starships. Most ork ships won't have zappa shields, so the graviton lances can take those with zappa shields down while plasma shoots at normal ships
 
Alectai said:
So, DMR and AP Rounds, and should be treated as such, rather than a general, all purpose wonder-weapon, right?
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No, anything at infantry scale still has a plenty fast rate of fire. It's when you scale up to "cannon" size that it starts to slow down, and that is due as much to the fact that targets worthy of such a weapon are going to be armored( and as such be more vulnerable to a heavier shot than volume of fire) as the square-cube law.
 
LOLROFL said:
To really hit the nail in the coffin regarding whether Plasma Weapons are Energy Weapons, here is the list of what are considered energy weapons on Lexicanum:
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The categorisation that the maintainers of an unofficial wiki have chosen to use for their listings has approximately no probative value, I feel.

LOLROFL said:
Do you actually have a source for that? Every other description of Plasma weapons I've seen describes them as exploding on contact with their target and that remains consistent with all the descriptions of Plasma Weapons we've seen in this quest.
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I think it's in one of the Tau Codexes.
 
Considering how conflicting and inconsistent GW is in terms of lore, I'd take anything that stands out as unreasonably different from the rest of the lore on plasma as not worth mentioning. It's probably not being Incorporated into the quest.
 
Alratan said:
The categorisation that the maintainers of an unofficial wiki have chosen to use for their listings has approximately no probative value, I feel.



I think it's in one of the Tau Codexes.
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So you have no actual evidence to back up your claim that Plasma weapons are kinetics. I can at least quote the wiki and the QM's own descriptions of how our Plasma weapons work as well as basic high-school physics regarding the density of plasma.
 
Tau plasma weapons are not like other plasma weapons. Imperial plasma weapons, for example, tend to make a big boom, similar to how ours function. We should not make assumptions about how they function or deal damage. We should definitely not assume that they are like our plasma weapons.
 
Rule 4: Don’t Be Disruptive
LOLROFL said:
So you have no actual evidence to back up your claim that Plasma weapons are kinetics. I can at least quote the wiki and the QM's own descriptions of how our Plasma weapons work as well as basic high-school physics regarding the density of plasma.
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Plasma weapons are kinetic because that's how the bulk of heat heat transfer by contact works. Heat energy of matter is kinetic energy. When one object touches another and heats it up by contact, that works by the faster particles of the hot object hitting the slower particles of the cooler object and transferring kinetic energy to them.

Plasma weapons will transfer some energy radiatively, i.e. by direct energy, but the vast bulk of it will be kinetic energy transfer. It's the same with flamers. Most of the heat transfer is kinetic.

And this very much is basic school physics, as is the fact that fusing stellar plasma has twenty times the density of steel.
 
Alratan said:
Plasma weapons are kinetic because that's how the bulk of heat heat transfer by contact works. Heat energy of matter is kinetic energy. When one object touches another and heats it up by contact, that works by the faster particles of the hot object hitting the slower particles of the cooler object and transferring kinetic energy to them.

Plasma weapons will transfer some energy radiatively, i.e. by direct energy, but the vast bulk of it will be kinetic energy transfer. It's the same with flamers. Most of the heat transfer is kinetic.

And this very much is basic school physics, as is the fact that fusing stellar plasma has twenty times the density of steel.
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Again, you have no actual evidence that the plasma from plasma weapons is in the fusing stage since the only claimed evidence was a memory of a quote about a Tau Pulse Rifle punching through multiple Orks.

Similarly, here is a quote of the Zzappa Field blocking a Starlance and the Starlance shot in the description doesn't exactly sound like it's a laser:
A lance of star-flame spears out, and the impossible occurs: the field drinks it down, visibly growing brighter, and the ship within is unharmed.
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If anything it sounds almost Plasma weapon like in its description yet the field had no issues eating it up.
 
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LOLROFL said:
Again, you have no actual evidence that the plasma from plasma weapons is in the fusing stage since the only claimed evidence was a memory of a quote about a Tau Pulse Rifle punching through multiple Orks.

Similarly, here is a quote of the Zzappa Field blocking a Starlance and the Starlance shot in the description doesn't exactly sound like it's a laser:

If anything it sounds almost Plasma weapon like in its description yet the field had no issues eating it up.
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Nah, Starlances are explicitly stated to be laser weapons / an evolved version of the Fire Prism (which is a laser directed through the prism to make it hit harder), that starlance excerpt is most likely some prose / writing flair to spice up the description.

(Source, wrote a lot, so I understand a little about the struggle of writing appealing prose)

As for the plasma discussion, I'd have to guessed it's probably treated as a really hot kinetic weapon and schlorped out of existence (hyperbole)
 
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BigFungus26 said:
As for the plasma discussion, I'd have to guessed it's probably treated as a really hot kinetic weapon and schlorped out of existence
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... That could put it in the worst place versus Zzappa Fields, if it's carrying enough thermal energy to mitigate the kinetic hit to the fields but also enough kinetic energy that it's impractical to overload the fields with the heat.

Well. If we mount Suncannon on some ships, we'll probably learn the answer soon enough: we're going to be fighting Orks a lot.
 
Candesce said:
... That could put it in the worst place versus Zzappa Fields, if it's carrying enough thermal energy to mitigate the kinetic hit to the fields but also enough kinetic energy that it's impractical to overload the fields with the heat.

Well. If we mount Suncannon on some ships, we'll probably learn the answer soon enough: we're going to be fighting Orks a lot.
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Keep in mind, I'm using hyperbole, the effects might not be THAT bad.

Who knows, maybe the Orks have an arguement over if plasma counts as an energy or a kinetic weapon and the bolt just goes right through the shield.
 
It doesn't matter that much if plasma counts as kinetic or energy vs zappa fields.
- If it's kinetic it will batter down the fields
- If it's energy it will be able to overload the fields like what happened with the ork battlecruiser
- And even if zappa fields are really strong vs plasma, our refits will still leave our ships with a lot of starlances, Las lances, or fatetwister cannons in addition to the plasma.
 
Alratan said:
Plasma weapons are kinetic because that's how the bulk of heat heat transfer by contact works. Heat energy of matter is kinetic energy. When one object touches another and heats it up by contact, that works by the faster particles of the hot object hitting the slower particles of the cooler object and transferring kinetic energy to them.

Plasma weapons will transfer some energy radiatively, i.e. by direct energy, but the vast bulk of it will be kinetic energy transfer. It's the same with flamers. Most of the heat transfer is kinetic.

And this very much is basic school physics, as is the fact that fusing stellar plasma has twenty times the density of steel.
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I mean, at that level even Lasers are "kinetic" weapons because they operate by having photons smack into things, and an electrolaser is kinetic because it works by smacking electrons into things, so pretty much anything that isn't out and out Sci-fi Feckery like "This turns off the Strong Force in the area it hits" or Magic Warp Feckery is also a kinetic weapon.

so no. Plasma is an energy weapon. as are flamers*.

And especially for Ork technology, the actual physics are not necessarily relavent, given how much of it is Waaagh Magic™ cosplaying as technology.

This will be abundantly clear the first time you run into a fleet with a substantial proportion of Snakebites.

*technically kinda sorta. gas/aerosol vs liquid fuels does somewhat complicate that sort of neat classification; as usual the moment you start trying to put things into neat little boxes you find things that just don't fit.
 
Well that's sorted then, Plasmas are treated as energy weapons.

What this'll mean for our ship designs? Probably not much considering we're planning on using Suncannons for our main arsenal in the lower weight classes (cruisers / light cruisers and below maybe) and the Ork shields can get overloaded if enough energy weapon damage is funneled into them.
 
BigFungus26 said:
Well that's sorted then, Plasmas are treated as energy weapons.

What this'll mean for our ship designs? Probably not much considering we're planning on using Suncannons for our main arsenal in the lower weight classes (cruisers / light cruisers and below maybe) and the Ork shields can get overloaded if enough energy weapon damage is funneled into them.
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Basically, the Zzappaa Field is like every other Ork high technology: gimmicky and unreliable even when actually operated competently... yet at the same time, something you can easily imagine giving the Necrons a massive headache to deal with, if it was reliable and operated by actually competent persons.
 
Solpimr said:
Such as the Krock, for example?
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essentially yes. Ork technogies, after all, are simply Krork technogies, degraded and bashed together from scrap and with Waaagh Magic filling in for incorrect, poorly made, or simply outright missing components. And operated by Orks, whose baseline level of competence is "not lookin' down the barrel ov ya shoota ta see if'n it's got bulletz in, more'n once, ya grots!"
 
I think rather than spreading our weapon types all over the place it may be better to focus our ships, and then adapt our tactics accordingly.

Like with the Ork shield. If we do both kinetic and energy we risk getting caught in a catch 22.

I don't think it's going to be possible to have a shield that can just no sell either weapon type. Rather some shields are effective or ineffective against certain weapons. But no shielding tech is going to be 100% effective at everything. So either you spend coin and space on a defensive onion or you use tactics when facing certain weapons. Or have ship types with appropriate weapons mixed into your fleet.
 
Mechanis said:
essentially yes. Ork technogies, after all, are simply Krork technogies, degraded and bashed together from scrap and with Waaagh Magic filling in for incorrect, poorly made, or simply outright missing components. And operated by Orks, whose baseline level of competence is "not lookin' down the barrel ov ya shoota ta see if'n it's got bulletz in, more'n once, ya grots!"
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Damm. The Krork must've been insane. And also probably a massive headache for the Necrons.
 
blankmask said:
Damm. The Krork must've been insane. And also probably a massive headache for the Necrons.
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The Krork reawakening is widely considered a Universal Losecon by most people in a position to be aware of the possibility, yes. Orks are bad enough, ones who are actually intelligent and able to fully game their insane racials to maximum effect are GG.
 
Professor Vesca said:
I think rather than spreading our weapon types all over the place it may be better to focus our ships, and then adapt our tactics accordingly.

Like with the Ork shield. If we do both kinetic and energy we risk getting caught in a catch 22.

I don't think it's going to be possible to have a shield that can just no sell either weapon type. Rather some shields are effective or ineffective against certain weapons. But no shielding tech is going to be 100% effective at everything. So either you spend coin and was pspace on a defensive onion or you use tactics when facing certain weapons. Or have ship types with appropriate weapons mixed into your fleet.
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Yes, and being effective is the difference maker. If a shield is effective that's quite a bit more time that your ships in combat need to spend dropping shields to deal damage. Take flare shields. They'll go down quickly and come back up quickly and act as a significant time amplifier for how long a ship can take a pounding from energy weapons. In situations where we are outnumbered or fights are happening repeatedly over a long period of time that gives them greater odds of dealing damage.

Now we don't need to mix our weapons on all vehicles, but everything cruiser weight and up should definitely not be reliant on a single type of weapon.
 
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