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A Different Breed (Warhammer 29K)

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Alectai said:
So, what you're trying to say is "We need to bite the bullet for Experimentals once, but once we've done it, we can use it without risk of teething issues" @Mechanis

Right, let me chew over this whole thing and figure out what'll work. This definitely should be a testbed for our first proper, militarized hull though, so it's likely going to have a lot of Experimentals.
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Not sure what the best outcome is as a whole, but at a glance, Partially Recessed Plasma Drives, Medium Armor, and a Psykrystal Capacitractor so that we can mount 3 or even all 4 of the Defense Systems sounds pretty interesting, a vehicular equivalent of our Ithilmar's design philosophy.
 
Mechanis said:
Experimental Technology
Some Items in your options will be marked as "Experimental." These represent technologies which are functionally mature—rather than novel or 'novel'—that simply have not been used in the platform type before. The first design constructed with an experimental technology may sometimes (but not always) incur additional costs in time, complexity, and or manufacturing costs to represent teething issues with integrating the technology. Note that not all such technologies will have such a phase—some are simply so simple that it is little trouble to integrate them, others are sufficiently similar to previous technologies that they require little additional experience to integrate.
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Well. I guess we'll be taking the Militize options a lot.
Good reason to start smaller and work our way up.
 
Mechanis said:
Configuration : Fully Recessed [EXPERIMENTAL]
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Aaaand I no longer care about the light/medium armor debate for our transport design, because the implication here is that it does not have this. Gah. We'll want to make a new APC sometime in the future, then.

Mechanis said:
Adding additional fine-control compensators can help smooth out the vehicle's flight, especially at high speed, making it a superior firing platform.
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Yes, this is why I didn't want to use the technicals for building proper tanks. We'll want a few of these. Combine with a turret, and we can fire on the move.

Mechanis said:
Makes the vehicle fully open-topped. Adds +12 System Slots.
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Oh, this is what lets the Grav-Barge get as many slots as it has. Guess it's a Light chassis after all.
 
I'm way too tired to get into this deep, but I want partially enclosed plasma drive and psycrystal reactor. Some integrated defense, medium to high armour, variable mounts. This is my baseline on which I may compromise only in regards to which defense to integrate.
 
LOLROFL said:
Will iterating on the design afterwards give us the option to resolve any teething issues that came up?
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Depends on the nature of the issue. some, for example, are things like "the first example of the first thing you make with it costs more, and then the extra cost declines until it goes away as further examples are built. Sometimes it's just "it took longer to fully finish the design for use because we had to fix some Problems™."
Captainwolf said:
How much does this option increase payload?
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...fixed.
 
[ ] Plan: Tiranoc-class Main Battle Tank
-[ ] Configuration : Fully Recessed [EXPERIMENTAL]
-[ ] Type : Plasma Drive [EXPERIMENTAL]
-[ ] Power Plant : Starlight Reactor [EXPERIMENTAL]
-[ ] Stability
-[ ] Stability x2
-[ ] Strength
-[ ] Maneuverability
-[ ] Maneuverability x2
-[ ] Enhanced Armor : Crew Compartment
-[ ] Weapons Mounts : Turret
-[ ] Crew Spaces : Fighting Compartment
-[ ] Basic Defense : Refractor Field
-[ ] Basic Defense : Deflector Field [EXPERIMENTAL]
-[ ] Configure designated weapon slots: 2 Vehicle (-12 Slots)

Basically, this is designed to be a tough, reliable workhorse tank chassis that can go anywhere, fight anything, and takes advantage of Space Elf mobility while also not completely putting our faith in Nothing Ever Going Wrong through having bolstered crew compartment, recessed engine configurations, and having significant resistance to all but exotic-weapons baked into the core chassis that stacks with it having the armor plating expected of a Main Battle Tank.

The high Stability as well is useful because they can shoot on the go, and the double Manueverability boost should compensate for the modest speed reduction brought on by going with Medium Armor. Specific models might add sponson mounts, but two Vehicle Weapons at our baseline lets us easily configure them as tank hunters, self-propelled guns, or even horde mulchers with ease. The Refractor/Deflector wombo-combo also means that it's virtually immune to small arms, highly resistant to any man-portable weapon, and should give it an edge against most other peer tanks, with an outside chance of surviving a hit even from a superheavy weapon.

That being said, how much does Enhance Payload give us for Slots @Mechanis ? And how does Strength interact with that too so I can get a final price-tag for this thing before any Experimental penalties kick in?

EDIT: I somehow didn't notice the power plant options, I don't know if those were missed and added later or if I somehow glazed over them, but my question still stands I think. I might swap out the extra engine for the Starlight Reactor though to cut down on our costs.

SON OF EDIT: I just did that.
 
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Alectai said:
That being said, how much does Enhance Payload give us for Slots @Mechanis ? And how does Strength interact with that too so I can get a final price-tag for this thing before any Experimental penalties kick in?

EDIT: I somehow didn't notice the power plant options, I don't know if those were missed and added later or if I somehow glazed over them, but my question still stands I think. I might swap out the extra engine for the Starlight Reactor though to cut down on our costs.
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I missed the extra payload from engines ha. that's already fixed. The Strength option increases base slots, before engine additions.
 
Redshirt Army said:
I'm strongly leaning towards the Psykrystal Capacitractor.

As soon as we mount a Holo-Field, the +5 EP pays for itself, and every system added past that only increases the savings.
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It's entirely possible to put together a design that mounts 3x Vehicle guns in a turret, all three basic defenses (holo, grav, refractor), and a fully recessed plasma drive. Leaves no system slots left, but all the engine upgrades can be spent on speed, maneuverability, and stabilizing the turrets.

I'd think going with 2x Vehicle slots and 6x System slots is probably better for long-term flexibility, even if it means we'd need to spend extra on 3x gun designs.

On the other hand, it is absolutely possible to put together a Medium SPG with a Superheavy. I'm gonna math that out next.
 
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Alectai said:
-[ ] Type : Plasma Drive [EXPERIMENTAL]
-[ ] Power Plant : Starlight Reactor [EXPERIMENTAL]
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Fusion Reactor+Plasma jets, Might have some interesting synergy. Also I hope we get some more exotic drive systems later on. Maybe our gravitational mastery can be furthered to create a new thruster option.
 
So with that said and done, here's my finished first draft.

[ ] Plan: Tiranoc-class Main Battle Tank
-[ ] Configuration : Fully Recessed [EXPERIMENTAL]
-[ ] Type : Plasma Drive [EXPERIMENTAL]
-[ ] Stability
-[ ] Stability x2
-[ ] Strength
-[ ] Maneuverability
-[ ] Maneuverability x2
-[ ] Power Plant : Starlight Reactor [EXPERIMENTAL]
-[ ] Basic Armor : Medium
-[ ] Enhanced Armor : Crew Compartment
-[ ] Weapons Mounts : Turret
-[ ] Crew Spaces : Fighting Compartment
-[ ] Basic Defense : Refractor Field
-[ ] Basic Defense : Deflector Field [EXPERIMENTAL]
-[ ] Configure designated weapon slots: 2 Vehicle, 1 Heavy (-15 Slots) (12 Slots Remaining)

I figure a main turret with two Vehicle scale weapons, a Heavy Slot that we can strap a Fatecaster Rifle or a Heavy Flamer or generally a windshield wiper to, and we've still got 12 equipment slots to play with for specialization. It has excellent stability and agility despite being extraordinarily well armored by Space Elf standards (With an extra boost to protect the crew).

Total cost of this chassis before Experimentals are taken into account looks to be... 49 EP apiece, not bad given the performance we should get and how much flexibility this core frame should have for us.
 
Alectai said:
[ ] Plan: Tiranoc-class Main Battle Tank
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You forgot to state what grade of armor it has by default.

Here is my plan, it is for a heavily armored tank with 2 vehicle weapons and a heavy weapon. The design is focused on being highly survivable, mounting all-around heavy armor backed up by almost all the defenses possible. The chassis is optimized as an MBT, but it could be made into a heavy IFV chassis by trading 1 vehicle weapon for 4 system slots so that 6 enclosed passenger slots can be mounted

[] Plan Grav-Tank Chassis
-[] Configuration : Fully Recessed [EXPERIMENTAL]
-[] Type : Plasma Turbine [EXPERIMENTAL]
-[] Stability 2x
-[] Speed
-[] Maneuvering 2x
-[] Power Plant : Psykrystal Capacitractor [EXPERIMENTAL]
-[] Basic Armor : Heavy
-[] Weapons Mounts : Default
-[] Crew Spaces : Fighting Compartment
-[] Basic Defense : Refractor Field
-[] Defense System : Holo-Field [EXPERIMENTAL]
-[] Defense System : Grav-Shield Generator [EXPERIMENTAL]
-[] Defense System : Energy-Dispersion Barrier Generator [EXPERIMENTAL]
-[] Slots: 2 Vehicle Weapons, 1 Heavy Slot, 2 System Slots

Added Cost: 20 EP for plasma turbine, 5 EP for optimization, 5 EP for Psykrystal Capacitractor, 12 EP for heavy armor, 2 EP for Refractor field, 11 EP for Holofield, 18 EP for Grav-shield, 9 EP for Energy-Dispersion Barrier Generator. 82 EP total
Slot Cost: -3 for turbine, -4 for Holofield, Grav-shield, and Barrier Generator. -7 Total

I skipped the Deflector field because infantry small arms and shrapnel won't get through heavy armor, but the Refractor will still mitigate las-cannons somewhat
 
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I think we want to go ham on Experimental components, build out a prototype with the Forge, then iterate the design to hopefully work out the bugs.

What we don't want to do is design some half-hearted milquetoast thing that's part experimental.

So, something ambitious

[] Plan Technology Demonstrator
- [ ] Configuration : Fully Recessed [EXPERIMENTAL]
- [ ] Type : Plasma Drive [EXPERIMENTAL] -2 Slots
- [ ] Enhance Speed -2 Slots
- [ ] Enhance Speed -2 Slots
- [ ] Enhance Payload -2 Slots
- [ ] Enhance Payload -2 Slots
- [ ] Strength x3 +6 slots
- [ ] Stability
- [ ] Maneuvering
- [ ] Power Plant : Starlight Reactor [EXPERIMENTAL] + 15 slots
- [ ] Basic Armor : Medium
- [ ] Weapons Mounts : Turret
- [ ] Crew Spaces : Fighting Compartment
- [ ] Defense System : Holo-Field [EXPERIMENTAL] -2 slot
- [ ] Defense System : Grav-Shield Generator [EXPERIMENTAL] -3 slots
- [ ] Defense System : Grav-Shield Generator [EXPERIMENTAL] x2 - 3 slots
- [ ] Defense System : Energy-Dispersion Barrier Generator [EXPERIMENTAL] - 3 slots

I'll calc the cost and slots late
 
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I don't think the Pskrystal is a good choice for this, I might be able to be convinced to add an integrated Holofield, but the point of this isn't to create a One True Tank that Does Everything, but to create a flexible chassis that can be configured to do damn near everything we need without breaking the bank to get there.

We want a solid core level of performance with a good degree of ability for the basic chassis to be repurposed to our needs, not something that the only real room for customization is what specific guns we put on it. It'll be fantastic for superheavies that live and die by their Special Rules, but for a medium weight core tank model, I think it's not the best idea, and we want Pure Performance out of this.
 
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I think weapon mounts should be ether default or variable so as to avoid unforeseen costs or flaws.
 
Alectai said:
I don't think the Pskrystal is a good choice for this, I might be able to be convinced to add an integrated Holofield, but the point of this isn't to create a One True Tank that Does Everything, but to create a flexible chassis that can be configured to do damn near everything we need without breaking the bank to get there.

We want a solid core level of performance with a good degree of ability for the basic chassis to be repurposed to our needs, not something that the only real room for customization is what specific guns we put on it.
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We have the light-grav vehicle to serve as a flexible platform, lets optimize this one for going into the thickest parts of a battle and coming out alive. By focusing it on Tank and heavy IFV role we can make it incredibly tough
 
Captainwolf said:
We have the light-grav vehicle to serve as a flexible platform, lets optimize this one for going into the thickest parts of a battle and coming out alive. By focusing it on Tank and heavy IFV role we can make it incredibly tough
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Nah, not the role for this, this is not our spearhead tank, or our dedicated superheavy hunters, this is the swarm of dudes that are behind the big one--but also the one that hashes out a lot of important engineering concepts before we build our spearhead.

It's our Leman Russ equiviliant--the tank that virtually every formation will have some access to, Heavies are more for Critical Missions or the like--and we shouldn't forget that. It's a lot cheaper and easier to create variants on an already successful chassis than it is to build a whole new one, so I don't want to basically pigeonhole this chassis into a single role.
 
Alectai said:
I don't think the Pskrystal is a good choice for this, I might be able to be convinced to add an integrated Holofield, but the point of this isn't to create a One True Tank that Does Everything, but to create a flexible chassis that can be configured to do damn near everything we need without breaking the bank to get there.
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While true consider that so far we almost always took the holofield, and that's unlikely to change it will be cheaper in long run to do add it now.
 
Candesce said:
If you're only running one drive and a whole bunch of integrated systems, I think you should go with the Psykrystal Capacitractor.

Starlight would be better if we wanted to make an SPG out of this thing (we absolutely could).
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I've modified it to have 5 engines, and at which point it really makes sense to have the Starlight Reactor, as it's slot positive, if expensive.
 
Realistically speaking if we can get the integrated defensive systems into this we probably should given that most of the designs are probably going to at least run a holofield + grav shield.

Energy-Dispersion Barrier Generator's being integrated is probably also a steal since them being bulky would mean that they are probably going to take more slots afterwards then even a grav shield.
 
Oh wow, This is going to be hard to not go over board and create a expensive chassis even before we stick systems into it, I coukd easily see our goblin shiny brains making this thing way to expensive as a generalist staple tank platform.

Going down the checklist, Partially reccessed engines, when combined with layers of grav or other shields, combined with the general speed of eldar vehicles and a holofield will probably be sufficient, without having to pay out the nose in terms of EP for the fully recessed engine, and not losing to many slots.

With that in mind, I think I want the plasma turbine? if we add an extra engine, It should be payload IMO, but I'm unsure if we want to eat that cost, I think that needs way more number crunching then I can do right now.
Distribution For points, I think that 2 speed, 2 Stability and 1 strength would be perfect.

The Psykrystal is looking REALLY tempting, But liquid crystal isn't bad either to maintain cost efficiency.

Basic armour should be medium or Heavy, We want this to be our leman russ, The chassis that will be turned into Tanks of all kinds, add on the costs involved, the relativly low number of living eldar, heavier armour is preferable, but medium would work to to try and balance speed and cost /survivability.

Fighting compartment, no question. This isn't a APC, this isn't a fast attack platform or a recon vessel, Or a vehicle designed to do drive by Shooting, this is a TANK.

I mean, we buy the holo-field on Everything as is, If we take the psykrystal and the holo-field, the Psykrystal pays itself back, and we are saving slottage, because we already want holo-fields on everything by default.

I think the main challenge for this will be not to get pigeon hole'd, We want a tank that isn't going to break the bank trying to field on mass, and isn't so specilised we can't use the chassi for more then one job.

Past that, I think we want to take some speed related options, such as in the point distribution to compensate for options that might decrease speed, since speed is such a huge part of eldar doctrine. If the rest of our forces move 200 MPH and this moves 60, its going to have a hard time staying in unit coherence.
 
Alectai said:
We want a solid core level of performance with a good degree of ability for the basic chassis to be repurposed to our needs, not something that the only real room for customization is what specific guns we put on it. It'll be fantastic for superheavies that live and die by their Special Rules, but for a medium weight core tank model, I think it's not the best idea, and we want Pure Performance out of this.
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We want pure performance, but pure performance/unit, not performance/EP as in the long run there's a fair chance that we'll be more limited by Warrior AP to raise detachments than by Foundry availability to build vehicles

And that long run may well arrive before we finish development of this vehicle design.
 
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