Yeah, I think we can squeeze a few Galleon builds in as "Flagship" units under those rules then, while we focus the Brigs on being main heavy combat units. So we strip out the Webway Gate from the "Modernized" version, and fill that with powerful defenses.

I'm not sure we'll ever build new versions of these Brigs in the long run, because by the time we're able to produce Battleships at any level of scale, we'll probably just be able to produce a bespoke Battleship Hull, but in terms of being our Big Stick, I think they'll be excellent.

But I do think we should do a Galleon design as our "Flagship" units, which will double as our Webway Gate carriers.
 
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1) Meant to preserve critical information across eons
2) Relies on "everybody knows" context

So terribly designed on a fundamental level, got it.

---
Do we need all of these pieces to use even a single Talisman of Vaul? I can't imagine that at least one of them isn't located in the Eye of Terror.

Moreover, are these relics of any use besides finding the other relics (the pieces in the poetry, not the Talismans themselves) unless we have the full set?
This was 60 million years ago with a civilization that probably expected anyone with good reason to go looking for the things to just be able to talk to veterans of the war in heaven era to get the necessary cultural context.

No one expected a Slaanesh level catastrophy happening (or at least they probably would have thought it would have been more immediately close to the war in heaven rather then 60 million years later).
 
Webway Gates are very useful things to have. We probably want modernised ships with them because it allows us to deploy our ground forces much more safely and also makes things like evacuations much easier.

This was 60 million years ago with a civilization that probably expected anyone with good reason to go looking for the things to just be able to talk to veterans of the war in heaven era to get the necessary cultural context.

No one expected a Slaanesh level catastrophy happening (or at least they probably would have thought it would have been more immediately close to the war in heaven rather then 60 million years later).

And perhaps not just ask people who knew the cultural context, ask the literal people who'd hidden the artefacts: or that those people would still be in charge and if they needed them again they could personally go and get them.
 
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The strike craft requirement means refitting our existing ships into carriers loses most of the value of refitting (because we don't get an immediately functional ship out of the deal) and gets us seriously inferior carriers.

Making proper carriers pretty much requires a properly designed and militarized hull.
Yeah, I'd agree with this. Carriers have extremely specialized requirements that don't really mesh well with our generalist hulls right now and strike craft are a whole separate design issue on top of that. We want to be creating a militarized carrier hull and at least one, preferably two militarized strike craft designs (light interceptor is mandatory, heavy bomber is optional) to go along with it in parallel before we start investing in carriers. So many of our current potential system slots are tied up in weapons that we don't have a hull which would be actually good at being a carrier, merely things we can make work.

It looks like there are 10-slot (cutter, sloop) or 15-slot (ketch, schooner) hull types available in escorts and 20-slot (caravel, dhow), 28-slot (carrack, clipper), and 45-slot (brigantine, galleon) capital hull types available, plus the hull types that we don't have designs for yet. When doing preliminary carrier design we can optimize off those numbers and plan to build a hull that exactly fits whatever we decide a carrier needs.

15 slots is probably enough for a workable escort carrier design if we're careful with it, and getting into the 28-slot designs allows for some serious numbers of strike craft to be fielded.
 
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The strike craft requirement means refitting our existing ships into carriers loses most of the value of refitting (because we don't get an immediately functional ship out of the deal) and gets us seriously inferior carriers.

Making proper carriers pretty much requires a properly designed and militarized hull.
We have over 69 Caravels (Scout fleet numbers appear to be missing and I know we had a few there), if instead of a dedicated carrier we instead went for a hybrid cruiser like Zahr-Tann's but with 2 hangars instead of 1 we'd be able to increase our strikecraft count significantly without compromising too much of the Caravel hulls advantages.

We currently have a total of 48 strikecraft squadrons across our entire fleet with 3 each from our 16 Combat Brigs.

To put it into perspective a single one of Zahr-Tann's 2 loaned Heavy fleets has 88 strikecraft minus shuttles which is nearly twice as many as what we have in total, one of the 3 loaned line fleets has 28 each (more than half) while one of the 7 loaned scout fleets has 16 each (1/4).

A hybrid Caravel with a few hangars that still has it's entire armament and a full suite of active defenses compliments both our small and large fleets as it brings much needed strikecraft support the otherwise unsupported escort squadrons that make up our small fleets while majorly beefing up our strikecraft counts in big fleets by holding double the strikecraft per hull as a Combat Brig.

[] Atropa class Light Cruiser (8 System | 4 Weapon Batteries | 1 Heavy Weapon Battery)
-[] 1x Heavy Las-Lance -1 Heavy Weapon Slot
-[] 4x Suncannon Weapon Batteries - 4 Weapon Slot
-[] 3x Æthersail - 3 System slot
-[] Holo-Field -1 System Slot
-[] Grav-Shield - 2 system Slots
-[] 2x Hanger - 2 System Slots

Suncannons should have decent range since we chose improved range as one of the bonuses for our plasma weapons, the Heavy Las-Lance can be swapped out for Heavy Grav-Thruster if people think that would be more worthwhile.

No plasma thrusters because this thing should be sitting near the center or rear of a fleet since all it's weapons are long ranged and it has hangars.

No PD since the 2 hangars of strikecraft should be able to cover for the lack of it plus whatever PD it's escorts have.

We will need to design a new fighter to compliment this carrier though as our current strikecraft isn't the best. The Bright Eagle is really expensive due to it's twin Starlances and lacks any active defenses to leverage their insane firepower.

Edit:
If we converted all our Caravels into something like the above example we'd have over 414 squadrons of strikecraft capacity for our fleets and each ship would still be a respectable combatant.

That's nearly 10 times our current strikecraft capacity.
 
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Yeah, I think we can squeeze a few Galleon builds in as "Flagship" units under those rules then, while we focus the Brigs on being main heavy combat units. So we strip out the Webway Gate from the "Modernized" version, and fill that with powerful defenses.

I'm not sure we'll ever build new versions of these Brigs in the long run, because by the time we're able to produce Battleships at any level of scale, we'll probably just be able to produce a bespoke Battleship Hull, but in terms of being our Big Stick, I think they'll be excellent.

But I do think we should do a Galleon design as our "Flagship" units, which will double as our Webway Gate carriers.
I don't think we are going to manage to get any new battleships started in the coming turns. interest is split between forges and foundries do to them surpassing our expectations, Aid BP, and enhance industry.

it makes more sense to just take combat brigs and split them between the roles of flagship and combat model in the short term. we're more likely to get an effective amount of vessels overall out of doing this and removing our Combat brigs glass cannon nature.

we aren't in a position to spend 16 AP building 4 new flagships that will be ready in all likelihood finish sometime passed turn 14 rather than designing brigantine models for the role and refitting the 4 damaged combat brigs we can't even use currently with AP from turns 9 through 11.

frankly this feels a lot like your letting the design ships enthusiasm get out of control and push you towards favoring building new ships earlier than is advisable. their will likely come a time for Galleon model battleships, but we'll likely have to face a Ruinous Ones retaliation before that, which means prioritizing refits over building new ships.
 
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We have over 69 Caravels (Scout fleet numbers appear to be missing and I know we had a few there), if instead of a dedicated carrier we instead went for a hybrid cruiser like Zahr-Tann's but with 2 hangars instead of 1 we'd be able to increase our strikecraft count significantly without compromising too much of the Caravel hulls advantages.
Yeah, I've got no issue with a heavy gun ship (or torpedo ship, that might work even better) carrying a hanger or two for collective defense against fighters and torpedoes, for scouting, and for shredding sails if we still end up at war with other Eldar. (Maybe even for escorting torpedoes in.)

That's entirely separate from my desire for an escort carrier, to be clear.
 
Raiders being the largest escort hull by word of QM will probably be the ones best suited to being escort carriers rather then trying to force our current unoptimized hulls to do the job.
 
Yeah, I've got no issue with a heavy gun ship (or torpedo ship, that might work even better) carrying a hanger or two for collective defense against fighters and torpedoes, for scouting, and for shredding sails if we still end up at war with other Eldar. (Maybe even for escorting torpedoes in.)

That's entirely separate from my desire for an escort carrier, to be clear.
it's notable that Zahr-Tann does use light cruisers for their torpedoes.
The Catapult is a generalist, equipped with a battery of naval lances, Combi-grav Bombards, and light torpedoes, a heavy array of lascannons for point defense, and a single hanger. Pulse and Flare shields protect the ship in combat, while four Aethersails make the vessel extremely fleet for its size.
though it's more one of several roles it serves than a focus.
 
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Raiders being the largest escort hull by word of QM will probably be the ones best suited to being escort carriers rather then trying to force our current unoptimized hulls to do the job.
I wonder if we shouldn't go with a smaller and cheaper escort carrier design and leave the high-slot carriers to capitals where they can really take advantage of the scaling hangar rules. A raider hull should have somewhere in the 16-19 slot range and would carry 2 strike craft squadrons per hangar, but a light cruiser hull with 20 slots would carry 3 strike craft squadrons per hangar, giving it a full 50% more craft per slot- a huge efficiency increase. Obviously the downside is that we'd have to build them individually as capitals instead of batched as escorts, but it's tough to say how the numbers would actually work out.

Consider a small escort carrier, something like:
[] Campanula class Escort Carrier (10 System)
-[] 2x Æthersail - 2 System slot
-[] Holo-Field -1 System Slot
-[] 7x Hangar - 7 System Slots

We could dump these into space at a terrifying speed just because there's not that much to them, and they could put a huge number of strike craft into the void. The limitation on fielding strike craft at that point would be how quickly we can build fighters and bombers instead of how quickly we can build hulls to contain them.
 
So, the Eye apparently shoots a black beam that causes massive mechanical failures and damage to any machine it hits, and the Hand apparently inflicts entropy on anything the bearer touches and also can be used to make plagues apparently? Jeez. Fun stuff.
 
I wonder if we're going to get into our new design stuff first this turn while the narrative stuff cooks?
 
I did a design sketch of a...very expensive Galleon.

1st Rate Dragon Galleon
Slots: 17 System | 2 Weapon Batteries | 4 Heavy Weapon Batteries | 1 Special Weapon Slot

-1 Starcaster Megalance (50 NEP, 1000 Starcrystals)
-4 Starlances (80 NEP, 1400 Starcrystals)
-2 Fatetwister Canons (10 NEP, 100 Fatebender Psy-scopes)

-3x Aethersails
-1x Plasma Thruster
-1x CIWS Graviton Sheer Bombard (superheavy, not Naval)
-1x Point Defense Suncannons
-4x Reinforced Hull
-1x Holofield
-1x Grav-Shield
-1x Energy Dispersion Barrier Generator OR 2x Hangers
 
... Well, Mortarion was using it to inflict plagues on people, which could easily mean it's only functioning as the delivery mechanism rather than doing any plague creation itself.
ahh. a channelling device.
I wonder if we're going to get into our new design stuff first this turn while the narrative stuff cooks?
I think diplomacy will be first. there is only two AP and we have to actually designated who our targets are. after that, it depends on whether seer circle finished or not.
 
In real life we've had problems like this for records less than a century old, let alone literally hundreds of thousands of years.
And presumably everyone from that era who might be able to remember those references got eaten or true killed by now?
EDIT: Actually, wouldn't Cegorach know? Or Isha if we could open up lines of communication.
 
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And presumably everyone from that era who might be able to remember those references got eaten or true killed by now?
EDIT: Actually, wouldn't Cegorach know? Or Isha if we could open up lines of communication.
I doubt Isha is allowed calls from her cage.

Cerogach may know, but making things simpler rather than giving a hint that leaves us more confused until we solve the riddle answer he has the Harlequins pass on? Doubtful.
 
Raiders being the largest escort hull by word of QM will probably be the ones best suited to being escort carriers rather then trying to force our current unoptimized hulls to do the job.
Something to keep in mind regarding escort sized carriers is that their hangars only have 2 squadrons compared to the 3 squadrons on a capital ship scale hangar.

You'd need to spend 1.5 System slots on your escort for each System slot a capital scale carrier has and you'd be concentrating a significant EP and manpower investment into a much more fragile hull.

While a Raider could potentially be built faster we don't know how filling up hangars works and whether we need to build the strikecraft independently or if they come wholesale with the ship.

If it is the first case than we'd be bottlenecked by how quickly we can pump out strikecraft (which are not cheap) rather than how quickly we can build carriers and if it is the second then an Escort carrier is unlikely to be that much cheaper than a Cruiser given how expensive strikecraft are (a Bright Eagle Squadron is 2814EP or ~28NEP) and as such probably takes more than a single turn to build.

Considering the fact that many fleet activities recommended/required at least 1 capital ship in the fleet (Convoy Escort, Meros Defence, Pirate Hunt) I think we're better off with hybrid light cruisers over escort scale light carriers since a hybrid Light Cruiser with 2 hangars can match a Escort carrier with 3 hangars.

Another thing to consider is that if strikecraft are indeed a bottleneck for carriers then a hybrid light cruiser would still remain a relevant combatant in strikecraft depletion situations (either attrition or just not enough buildpower) while an Escort carrier would be neutered.

We also aren't likely to need a ton of strikecraft either, just enough to be able to counter the strikecraft and munitions of our opponents since our extremely powerful exotic weapons and Grav-Weapons will be doing the heavy lifting offensively.

We are also Eldar and thus casualty averse so firing pilotless munitions (ideally something like the cancerous Tau homing torpedoes) into the gauntlet of enemy interceptors and PD makes much more sense than sending manned strikecraft into that gauntlet.
 
Something to keep in mind regarding escort sized carriers is that their hangars only have 2 squadrons compared to the 3 squadrons on a capital ship scale hangar.

You'd need to spend 1.5 System slots on your escort for each System slot a capital scale carrier has and you'd be concentrating a significant EP and manpower investment into a much more fragile hull.

While a Raider could potentially be built faster we don't know how filling up hangars works and whether we need to build the strikecraft independently or if they come wholesale with the ship.

If it is the first case than we'd be bottlenecked by how quickly we can pump out strikecraft (which are not cheap) rather than how quickly we can build carriers and if it is the second then an Escort carrier is unlikely to be that much cheaper than a Cruiser given how expensive strikecraft are (a Bright Eagle Squadron is 2814EP or ~28NEP) and as such probably takes more than a single turn to build.

Considering the fact that many fleet activities recommended/required at least 1 capital ship in the fleet (Convoy Escort, Meros Defence, Pirate Hunt) I think we're better off with hybrid light cruisers over escort scale light carriers since a hybrid Light Cruiser with 2 hangars can match a Escort carrier with 3 hangars.

Another thing to consider is that if strikecraft are indeed a bottleneck for carriers then a hybrid light cruiser would still remain a relevant combatant in strikecraft depletion situations (either attrition or just not enough buildpower) while an Escort carrier would be neutered.

We also aren't likely to need a ton of strikecraft either, just enough to be able to counter the strikecraft and munitions of our opponents since our extremely powerful exotic weapons and Grav-Weapons will be doing the heavy lifting offensively.

We are also Eldar and thus casualty averse so firing pilotless munitions (ideally something like the cancerous Tau homing torpedoes) into the gauntlet of enemy interceptors and PD makes much more sense than sending manned strikecraft into that gauntlet.
Here's a design for a currently acceptable Light Carrier/Cruiser hybrid. It's got a mid-to-long range Suncannon battery, and a Thruster Lance to poke very unwanted holes, but the main weapons are the flight decks unquestionably.

UWU what's that, a Dhow-carrier?
Slots: 10 System | 3 Suncannon Weapon Batteries (15 NEP) | 1 Heavy Graviton Thruster Lance (14 NEP)

2x Aethersails
1x Holofield
1x Point Defense Spike Cannons
6x hangers (18 Squadrons, 6 each Interceptor, Multirole, and Heavy Bomber)
 
While a Raider could potentially be built faster we don't know how filling up hangars works and whether we need to build the strikecraft independently or if they come wholesale with the ship.
Strike craft are a vehicle. We need to design one and spend 3 AP on a vehicle foundry to get production up. There are flyer vehicle chassis in the relevant info page.
If it is the first case than we'd be bottlenecked by how quickly we can pump out strikecraft (which are not cheap) rather than how quickly we can build carriers and if it is the second then an Escort carrier is unlikely to be that much cheaper than a Cruiser given how expensive strikecraft are (a Bright Eagle Squadron is 2814EP or ~28NEP) and as such probably takes more than a single turn to build.
We are bottlenecked in no way. Construction of warships with hangers is not dependent on the ability to fill those hangers. We have the option to build a combat brig Battleship despite the complete lack of available fighters to assign to it's strike craft hanger. We can still field a vessel whether it has squadrons or not.


Another thing to consider is that if strikecraft are indeed a bottleneck for carriers then a hybrid light cruiser would still remain a relevant combatant in strikecraft depletion situations (either attrition or just not enough buildpower) while an Escort carrier would be neutered.
This is pure assumption on your part. We have no idea what shape a raider class carrier would even take, so any assertions as to it's suitability for combat without fighters is based on nothing established.

We are also Eldar and thus casualty averse so firing pilotless munitions (ideally something like the cancerous Tau homing torpedoes) into the gauntlet of enemy interceptors and PD makes much more sense than sending manned strikecraft into that gauntlet.
Primarily I see strike craft serving a roll of anti-fighter interceptor craft, and as Haywire missile bombers for firing missiles at medium range toward special vessels which have demonstrates interesting tech, or countering Torpedo based area denial by using Haywire bombs to disable the torpedoes detonators.

Most of the evidence for these things is listed in info thread marks on page one and the recent turn update for details in ship construction that demonstrate the lack of a bottleneck in relation to warship construction in relation to strike craft, though frankly the entire concept is fairly farfetched.
 
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990.M29 | Turn 5 | Vehicle Chassis Design I
The first step in developing a new chassis is to determine what type of chassis you wish to design. There are two overall options for doing so—first, you may select an existing chassis to iterate. This speeds design considerably, but reduces your available options for fine-tuning the vehicle's capabilities. You may, therefore, not wish to do so immediately. This does however allow older vehicles to be refit to your newer standards, though at the same time limits you to existing platform types.

The other option is to develop an entirely novel chassis (though it may be inspired by an existing design if desired) which will grant far more leeway to include various integrated defense and support features, overall configuration, and even aesthetics (those the latter has no effect on actual performance mechanically).

If you are not iterating an existing chassis, you may select one of four possible vehicle types to design—Walkers, which are relatively inefficient in terms of payload for their cost but highly maneuverable in tight or constrained conditions which other vehicle types may struggle with; Bikes, which are extremely light vehicles generally used in cavalry roles; Vehicles, which encompasses a wide variety of non-special configurations; and Aircraft, which are various forms of high performance craft that serve in Air and Aerospace Superiority, bombing, ground attack, or transport roles (or occasionally a combination thereof.)

You may design up to Four chassis this turn.

[ ] Slot 1 (Write-in)
[ ] Slot 2 (Write-in)
[ ] Slot 3 (Write-in)
[ ] Slot 4 (Write-in)

example Formats said:
"[-] Iterate Light Grav-Vehicle"
"[-] Iterate Jetbike"
"[-] Iterate Skimmer"


"[-] Design Aircraft"
"[-] Design Bike"
"[-] Design Walker"



12 Hour Moratorium

 
Strike craft are a vehicle. We need to design one and spend 3 AP on a vehicle foundry to get production up. There are flyer vehicle chassis in the relevant info page.

We are bottlenecked in no way. Construction of warships with hangers is not dependent on the ability to fill those hangers. We have the option to build a combat brig Battleship despite the complete lack of available fighters to assign to it's strike craft hanger. We can still field a vessel whether it has squadrons or not.



This is pure assumption on your part. We have no idea what shape a raider class carrier would even take, so any assertions as to it's suitability for combat without fighters is based on nothing established.


Primarily I see strike craft serving a roll of anti-fighter interceptor craft, and as Haywire missile bombers for firing missiles at medium range toward special vessels which have demonstrates interesting tech, or countering Torpedo based area denial by using Haywire bombs to disable the torpedoes detonators.

Most of the evidence for these things is listed in info thread marks on page one and the recent turn update for details in ship construction that demonstrate the lack of a bottleneck in relation to warship construction in relation to strike craft, though frankly the entire concept is fairly farfetched.
I think you've missed a point here in all these quotes-when we ask about the bottleneck of fightercraft, we ask if flight wings must be built for each carrier, or if they come as a package deal. We've all read the info threadmarks, but the actual construction of ships is still kinda a black box.

Speaking of vehicles, what are we looking for here? I'm thinking we should iterate our light grav vehicle, design a walker chassis of some kind, and maybe design a light-fighter chasis for these carriers, but I'm unsure about other options.
 
Ok... I want a walker. Its not going to be as good as a wrathknight, Or some hypothetical Ent-knight, But it gives us a way to deploy enough heavy weapons and melee to mince stuff in CQC

The Basic Jetbike could do for a refit or redesign, Its still JUST a bike from recreation.
 
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