Just a quick query, I know the path as we know it exists but currently do all the phoenix lords exist ? And if so will we at some point have access to recruiting apect warriors ?
The Eldar who will become the Phoenix Lords are around (in that they're alive) at this point, yes; as are proto-Dire Avengers. The individual history will later remember as Asurman, however, is currently still hiding in an old temple being depressed, while Jain Zar is being a feral child on the same planet; so it's still quite some time before the Aspect Warriors will be a thing. Not for some centuries, really.
 
1700 Starcrystals
• 360 Fatebender Psy-Scopes
@Mechanis I believe the exotic cost for combat brigs is incorrect. There are 100 more starcrystals than a Megalance and 12 starlances should use. I'm not sure about the fatesever pd do to not knowing how many vehicles grade weapons are used to cover a battleship hull.

How much is the fatebender scope cost of a cruiser/carrack hull Fatesever PD?
 
So, with the proposed mass production of conversion fields, are we thinking of putting them on everyone?

An infantry sized field is the size of a football (soccer, ball for the Americans).
I went a bit bigger than a 2 meter radius, considering the eldar's height, and the power armor's bulk.
 
  • 1x Needler Rifle Forge (+60 Needler Rifles/year each)
  • 1x Wraithweave Brigandine Armor Foundry (+90 Wraithweave Brigandine Armor/year each)

360 EP for the weapons foundry per year
180 EP for the armor foundry per year.

1 active BAP is currently 96 EP per year.

Weapons foundry produces 3.75 times the EP that an active BAP investment would.
Armor foundry produces 1.875 times the EP that an active BAP investment would.

The question now is how this scales and some potential background math for the foundries, if it scales purely on BAP we will know next turn.
If it scales on some kind of tier system that is based on the BAP we have that might take some more time.

There is also the thing where the tech level of the stuff we are building has a direct impact beyond the EP cost, but we will only learn of that when we build foundries for that stuff.

There is also the question if there is some background scaling for foundries of a type where the more you have of one time the more they start to produce to a degree because they get further specialized.

This at least shows that the forge action would be much more effective on getting weapons foundries build than armor foundries EP impact wise, on the other hand we will need much more armor foundries of a single type compared to any weapons foundry.

There is also the question if/when we start to unlock R&D options to improve the foundries directly.
I can see some showing up from hero actions due to our starting hero unit seemingly being more of a crafting/industrial one and not a martial one.
The other one would be the seeker options and if we need the upgrade before anything shows up here but i think that can likely wait until turn 10, mostly due to us kind of testing/building up foundries to start recruitment of 1 detachment per turn.

So, with the proposed mass production of conversion fields, are we thinking of putting them on everyone?

An infantry sized field is the size of a football (soccer, ball for the Americans).
I went a bit bigger than a 2 meter radius, considering the eldar's height, and the power armor's bulk.

Putting them on everybody can likely save a lot of lives not just for the infantry.
The conversion fields likely work really well in protecting the vehicle crews including the enclosed crews (explosive shockwaves that would have otherwise killed them being one).
The vehicles will likely still be destroyed, but the crew will likely have a much higher rate of survival.
 
Last edited:
So, with the proposed mass production of conversion fields, are we thinking of putting them on everyone?

An infantry sized field is the size of a football (soccer, ball for the Americans).
I went a bit bigger than a 2 meter radius, considering the eldar's height, and the power armor's bulk.
At 6 EP they aren't affordable enough to put on absolutely everyone- vehicle crews, for example, shouldn't have them. And anyone who doesn't have at least void guard armor already probably shouldn't either; if we can't afford 6 EP of armor then we can't afford that much of a secondary defensive system either.

Anyone in ithilmar is worth the additional investment, as is anyone who took specialist training (just psykers right now, but possibly command staff once that gets unlocked). Possibly squad leadership in general even if it doesn't require actual warrior AP of training, just because having commanders taken down in the field is bad.

Personally I would also say anyone in void guard carrying 20+ EP of weapons probably merits a conversion field; at that point their guns are expensive enough that putting an additional investment into their protection is merited. Cheaper units will stop being cheap if we add in the conversion field cost, though.
 
We should prioritize the blade dancers first since they've got no armour at all and are slow to produce.
 
So, with the proposed mass production of conversion fields, are we thinking of putting them on everyone?

An infantry sized field is the size of a football (soccer, ball for the Americans).
I went a bit bigger than a 2 meter radius, considering the eldar's height, and the power armor's bulk.
Absolutely.

When it comes to emergency militia printing a brigantine conversion field is enough to greatly increase their odds of survival. A brigantine provides adequate defense against most common solid munitions the enemy could resort to, and a conversion field is suitable for common energy weapons of the las and plasma sort.

For void guard warsuits it compensates for their one weakness.

So yeah. I'm hoping to have two of these printing conversion fields barrier generator by turn 10.
At 6 EP they aren't affordable enough to put on absolutely everyone- vehicle crews, for example, shouldn't have them. And anyone who doesn't have at least void guard armor already probably shouldn't either; if we can't afford 6 EP of armor then we can't afford that much of a secondary defensive system either.
6 EP is 300 per turn per factory, and it will only increase with more BAP, 20 per single BAP increase. It's worth doing, it will just take a while. Now that we've developed a proper warriors administration, refits can happen in the background once we've paid the setup cost.
 
Why is the webway easier for Kairos? It's Slaanesh that has a webway key, not Tzeentch?

Because Daemons generally can't enter reality without someone summoning them and then making sacrifices to anchor them there.

As this point, that's not the case in the Webway. As the moment there are daemons roaming around it who can enter through holes made in the tunnels during the Fall.

We should prioritize the blade dancers first since they've got no armour at all and are slow to produce.

I think we may want to pull the Blade Dancers off the field and back into reserve where they may unlock additional Seer options until we've had chance to tech up and develop some pay-tech for them.

They're just so expensive to replace.

360 EP for the weapons foundry per year
180 EP for the armor foundry per year.

1 active BAP is currently 96 EP per year.

Weapons foundry produces 3.75 times the EP that an active BAP investment would.
Armor foundry produces 1.875 times the EP that an active BAP investment would.

You're probably right, but until we build another weapon and armour foundry I don't think we can conclude that yet from a single example of each.

It could be that production is idiosyncratic to each output. The next Weapon Forge we make could, for all we currently know, be equally or less productive than the Brigandine Foundry. It could even; in an extreme case, be random, for all we know Mechanis rolls some dice and multiplies it by ten and that's the number that are produced per turn.
 
Last edited:
We have at this moment no idea how the foundries scale, just their current production.
Anything we do here is at best guesses, unless you have a QM quote that confirms numbers.

I am looking forward to see by how much it increases with each BAP. The Foundries already look pretty good. Maybe we could start one for Vehicles next turn to see how they turn out. We are not getting any Information ahead of Construction anyway.
 
We have at this moment no idea how the foundries scale, just their current production.
Anything we do here is at best guesses, unless you have a QM quote that confirms numbers.
Both needler rifles and Brigantine Armor are being produced in variables of 15, and our current BAP is 15. Forges and foundries therefore produce a certain amount of wargear which is then multiplied by our BAP.

Admittedly I don't know how much a Conversion Field Barrier Generator is produced before BAP multiplication is applied, but I doubt it's low with Needler rifles receiving 4 and Brigantine Armor being 6. 2 foundries would produce that number multiplied times double our BAP.
 
Both needler rifles and Brigantine Armor are being produced in variables of 15, and our current BAP is 15. Forges and foundries therefore produce a certain amount of wargear which is then multiplied by our BAP.

It seems plausible, but I don't think we can yet say for sure.

If production does scale linearly with total BAP, that makes Enhance Industry even more attractive the more Foundries we have.

I think this makes the Basic Industry plan that much more attractive.

Unless something comes up, I think that we should be doing 2EIs per turn and building 4 AP of foundries a turn for the next few turns.

I think we can be confident we're going to need foundries for:

Sunblaster Caliver (Rifle)
2xVoid Guard Warsuit
Ithilmar Warsuit
Light Reaping Blade
2xEnergy-Dispersion Barrier Generator
Grenades of some kind

Anything beyond that is unsure, but the above would probably take three or four turns to build.

If we keep on plugging away on increasing our Base Industry after that, our production rate will grow even if we don't build any more of those foundries.
 
Last edited:
Anything beyond that is unsure, but the above would probably take three or four turns to build.
I'm thinking about building mass militia industry: many VGW+Sunblaster rifles+Light rending blades+Tandem grenades factories, so that we can raise a mighty craftworld militia guerilla force for defence. If we can raise a thousand of dudes like this a turn, we'll survive just about any attack on the craftworld itself.
 
We'll need bigger melee weapons and pistols for our melee troops too. Because my read on it is that light melee weapons are knives and other backup weapons.
Chainswords are heavy melee.
And with that setup we'd need to double the VGW foundries.
 
I'm thinking about building mass militia industry: many VGW+Sunblaster rifles+Light rending blades+Tandem grenades factories, so that we can raise a mighty craftworld militia guerilla force for defence. If we can raise a thousand of dudes like this a turn, we'll survive just about any attack on the craftworld itself.

Although that might work in emergency, in normal use we'll probably eventually become limited by the number of detachments we raise.

That's a way off, but if the supposition that production scales linearly with BAP is correct, if armour foundries produce a consistent amount of EP (which they may not); then say we get to 25 total BAP and have four VGW factories that means we'd produce 1000 suits a turn.

Unless we can get more WAP that's probably more suits if armour than we can plausibly raise troops for a turn.

Depending on the relative ease of expanding WAP versus expanding production the

If we find ourselves in a period when WAP is capped but we can keep on building more Foundries we may want to switch to more expensive troops, simply because we can afford to.

We'll need bigger melee weapons and pistols for our melee troops too. Because my read on it is that light melee weapons are knives and other backup weapons.
Chainswords are heavy melee.
And with that setup we'd need to double the VGW foundries.

My read is that heavy melee weapons are two handed and light ones one handed, although I could be wrong.

That's why there's a sidearm power sword rather than power knife.
 
Last edited:
It seems plausible, but I don't think we can yet say for sure.

If production does scale linearly with total BAP, that makes Enhance Industry even more attractive the more Foundries we have.

I think this makes the Basic Industry plan that much more attractive.

Unless something comes up, I think that we should be doing 2EIs per turn and building 4 AP of foundries a turn for the next few turns.

I think we can be confident we're going to need foundries for:

Sunblaster Rifle
2xVoid Guard Warsuit
Ithilmar Warsuit
Light Reaping Blade
2xEnergy-Dispersion Barrier Generator
Grenades of some kind

Anything beyond that is unsure, but the above would probably take three or four turns to build.

If we keep on plugging away on increasing our Base Industry after that, our production rate will grow even if we don't build any more of those foundries.
I think it's going to take a bit longer than four turns unfortunately. We are going to end up with more projects through herald agreements after all, and at some point we have to do engines.

In addition, I'm in favor of developing a haywire missile using strike craft turn 8, which means it's probably wise to develop missiles turn 7, so both technologies are ready.

Turn 6 for instance is going to look like

- Enhance Industry × 2 (6 AP)
- Continue Seer Circle / Armory Foundry : Void Guard Warsuit (2 AP)
- Armor Foundry : Conversion Field Barrier Generator Infantry. (2 AP)
- continue repairs (1 AP)
- Start Stel-Uit ship repairs (2 AP)
- Start 3rd Quilan refit batch (2 AP)
- refit capitol class ship / Assist Arach-qin shipyard Repairs. (1 AP)

So yeah, odds are even we only pull off a single factory next turn, which should probably be conversion fields.

What are your feelings on the last AP? I'm leaning towards Arach-qin since we are taking our time with their damaged ships, but I'd be willing to take a carrack refit instead.
I'm thinking about building mass militia industry: many VGW+Sunblaster rifles+Light rending blades+Tandem grenades factories, so that we can raise a mighty craftworld militia guerilla force for defence. If we can raise a thousand of dudes like this a turn, we'll survive just about any attack on the craftworld itself.
Militia is going to be brigantine for a while until proper warhosts reach numbers in the 50s. Also we are going to need more than just two weapons for a proper warhosts. We still need an anti armor and AOE squads for some of the detachments.
 
Last edited:
Although that might work in emergency, in normal use we'll probably eventually become limited by the number of detachments we raise.

That's a way off, but if the supposition that production scales linearly with BAP is correct, if armour foundries produce a consistent amount of EP (which they may not); then say we get to 25 total BAP and have four VGW factories that means we'd produce 1000 suits a turn.

Unless we can get more WAP that's probably more suits if armour than we can plausibly raise troops for a turn.

Depending on the relative ease of expanding WAP versus expanding production the

If we find ourselves in a period when WAP is capped but we can keep on building more Foundries we may want to switch to more expensive troops, simply because we can afford to.

We currently cap out at recruiting about ~2200 per turn with 12 WAP.
But that is only if we go with max squad size on everything + taking all the vehicles that need a ton of crew and fill up all the slot on each detachment.

More normal detachments likely will be about 100 per for about ~1200 using all 12 WAP.
So about ~8 VGA foundries will cover the recruitment
Add another ~8 foundries for Ithilmar if it is included in the troop designs to some degree + used in the elite+HQ design.

But that is for current production output.

Then again I doubt the foundries scale with active BAP, instead of a passive background industry level.
In part because that makes the bookkeeping much easier, as the numbers don't need to be updated every turn just because we got another BAP or two.
 
Last edited:
I think it's going to take a bit longer than four turns unfortunately. We are going to end up with more projects through herald agreements after all, and at some point we have to do engines.

In addition, I'm in favor of developing a haywire missile using strike craft turn 8, which means it's probably wise to develop missiles turn 7, so both technologies are ready.

Turn 6 for instance is going to look like

The problem is that I think people are going to object again to investing AP in expanding industry, and instead want to do things like
trickle AP into watching the progress bar for the engines go up.

I have to admit I don't really see the point of Haywire weapons when we can instead probably more cheaply get melta and plasma weapons.

We generally don't want to capture our enemies, we want to kill them.

We currently cap out at recruiting about ~2200 per turn with 12 WAP.
But that is only if we go with max squad size on everything + taking all the vehicles that need a ton of crew and fill up all the slot on each detachment.

More normal detachments likely will be about 100 per for about ~1200 using all 12 WAP.
So about ~4 VGA foundries will cover all the guys.
Add another 4-6 foundries for Ithilmar if it is included in the troop designs to some degree + used in the elite+HQ design.

Thanks for working that out.

I also that for the foreseeable future we're also going to have heavy competition for WAP.

Chassis and hull militarisation are both important to do and important to do ASAP, as they have a long lead time and if we don't do them we're likely to end up building obsolete designs that can't be upgraded.

That's why in the Basic Industry plan I started three of them, although the winning turn only does one. That's 2 AP locked for 1-12 turns.

I suspect that at some point in the next few turns we may start others.

The main point, I think, is that in the medium term we may be less bound by EP costs than previously assumed, and more by the number or detachments we can raise.

This means that we may want to consider more expensive options for equipping basic troops than we previously did.

That doesn't mean we can make the crazy leap to Ithilmar for everyone, but does mean that at some point we may want to consider an armour design with an intermediate cost at some point for some troops if the option becomes available again. I can see a niche for a suit of heavy power armour designed for ranged troops with heavy weapons while regular infantry with rifles uses VGW and elite melee or psyker units use Ithilmar.

We may also want to consider making units with options. For example our current Hearthguard Brightstar squads seem to have enough Starblaster Rifles and Starblaster Carbines available that they can pick which one to choose on a mission by mission basis.

We may want, for example, to give our line infantry both Sunblaster Calivers and Needler Carbines so they can pick which one is most appropriate for the enemy and battlefield.
 
Then again I doubt the foundries scale with active BAP, instead of a passive background industry level.
In part because that makes the bookkeeping much easier, as the numbers don't need to be updated every turn just because we got another BAP or two.
I mean, that seems to be the quest style Mechanis favors? every turn their adjusting the map, adjusting the war gear numbers, adjusting that status of Zahr-Tann's fleets and warhosts. soon they'll be tracking the repair schedules of two craftworlds, with probably more to come. it's a lot, but it's the system they designed and are sticking with based on all I've seen. we'll just have to wait and see.

I have to admit I don't really see the point of Haywire weapons when we can instead probably more cheaply get melta and plasma weapons.
haywire missiles on strike craft can knock out sensitive tech like targeting or sensors, softening up enemy vessels.

there is also the whole collecting Aeldari hulls from elsewhere Idea thats been proposed a few times. that's probably easier if we hit them with a few of these first, to take out any weapon batteries daemons on them might point at us.

it would also be good for counting enemy area denial. send a swarm of haywire missiles to fry the detonators on torpedoes and just fly right on through.

Chassis and hull militarisation are both important to do and important to do ASAP, as they have a long lead time and if we don't do them we're likely to end up building obsolete designs that can't be upgraded.
well we also have command which is probably going to be another WAP sink as well. I think we should simply stick with a few chassis for now and do a militarized hull once we have 3 good chassis. we aren't going to be building ships before turn 20 either way, with more than 240 AP left in refits, so there isn't a need to start designing a militarized hull for a few turns anyways.
 
Last edited:
haywire missiles on strike craft can knock out sensitive tech like targeting or sensors, softening up enemy vessels.

So can plasma or melta explosions though.

there is also the whole collecting Aeldari hulls from elsewhere Idea thats been proposed a few times. that's probably easier if we hit them with a few of these first, to take out any weapon batteries daemons on them might point at us.

Although that's possible, I suppose, I'd expect most daemons to have faded back into the warp by now without any souls to sustain them in the Materium, I'd have thought that if we were taking over these vessels we'd probably be using temporary Webway burrowing to board them, bypassing their weapons.

well we also have command which is probably going to be another WAP sink as well. I think we should simply stick with a few chassis for now and do a militarized hull once we have 3 good chassis. we aren't going to be building ships before turn 20 either way, with more than 240 AP left in refits, so there isn't a need to start designing a militarized hull for a few turns anyways.

The thing is, a militarised capital ship hull probably takes an average of 13 turns to m design, and up to 20, so if we want to be building one around turn 20, we probably need to start the militarisation design now.
 
The problem is that I think people are going to object again to investing AP in expanding industry, and instead want to do things like
trickle AP into watching the progress bar for the engines go up.

I have to admit I don't really see the point of Haywire weapons when we can instead probably more cheaply get melta and plasma weapons.

We generally don't want to capture our enemies, we want to kill them.



Thanks for working that out.

I also that for the foreseeable future we're also going to have heavy competition for WAP.

Chassis and hull militarisation are both important to do and important to do ASAP, as they have a long lead time and if we don't do them we're likely to end up building obsolete designs that can't be upgraded.

That's why in the Basic Industry plan I started three of them, although the winning turn only does one. That's 2 AP locked for 1-12 turns.

I suspect that at some point in the next few turns we may start others.

The main point, I think, is that in the medium term we may be less bound by EP costs than previously assumed, and more by the number or detachments we can raise.

This means that we may want to consider more expensive options for equipping basic troops than we previously did.

That doesn't mean we can make the crazy leap to Ithilmar for everyone, but does mean that at some point we may want to consider an armour design with an intermediate cost at some point for some troops if the option becomes available again. I can see a niche for a suit of heavy power armour designed for ranged troops with heavy weapons while regular infantry with rifles uses VGW and elite melee or psyker units use Ithilmar.

We may also want to consider making units with options. For example our current Hearthguard Brightstar squads seem to have enough Starblaster Rifles and Starblaster Carbines available that they can pick which one to choose on a mission by mission basis.

We may want, for example, to give our line infantry both Sunblaster Calivers and Needler Carbines so they can pick which one is most appropriate for the enemy and battlefield.

I'll go draft up a theoretical intermediary between VGA and Ithilmar, gimme a second:

[ ] Heavy
[] Powered
[] Autotargeters
[] Extended Operations
[] Holo-Field
[] Power Assist (x2)

This is what I'm currently thinking when it comes to designing a middle-ground between Ithilmar and VGA (taking advantage of the extra protection offered by the jump from Medium Semi-Power, to Heavy Powered while hopefully not slowing the wearer down too much)

If I had to use all of the slots I'd probably either go with something like...

[ ] Heavy
[] Powered
[] Autotargeters
[] Extended Operations (x2)
[] Holo-Field
[] Power Assist (x3)
[] Extra Plating

This would be cutting it close in terms of EP expenditure (haven't calculated it yet, but I'd estimate somewhere around 11-12EP per suit, pricey, but not Ithilmar level) but would give us a suit that'd be very fast, surprisingly durable while also keeping the Holo-Field to make us even more annoying.

We might not be able to fit a conversion field into this design, and I have planned for that by basically going "Yup, there's a foundry for that" by giving them the shields as equipment instead of a built-in feature.

I personally like this approach, especially with the revelation of how effective foundries have proven so far and with how promising our Ithilmars already are at the moment (considering that an Ithilmar with no extra plating requires dedicated Anti Tank weapons to penetrate, this would be even more of a pain to fight)

(Space Marines wish they'd have armour as good as this)

Alternatively, we could go with a heavy gunner approach:

[ ] Heavy
[] Powered
[] Autotargeters
[] Extended Operations (x1)
[] Holo-Field
[] Power Assist (x2)
[] Heavy Weapon Hardpoint

This would let us field a trooper that is a little squishier, but can bring two heavy weapons and a rending blade each, quite a large EP expenditure, but slinging around two heavy weapons would more than make up for it.

Still though, I think we should at least wait until the VGA foundry is online so we can set a benchmark for what to expect with our theoretical intermediary armour.

(Also yeah I admit I should've probably calculated the EP, but this is all theory atm and I like designing armour)
 
Back
Top