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A Different Breed (Warhammer 29K)

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Xavies said:
[X] Plan: Strong Foundations Lead to Victory

That Plan wins for me, because i find the mental Picture of Vau-Vulkesh fixing itself in just a few years hilarious. Damages? What Damages?

*Proceeds to fix itself and polish of a few Minor Craftworlds on the Side as well*

We really are Tech Support :lol:
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It's a good way to make yourself politically difficult to kill, yes, if you're the only ones rated to do major Craftworld maintenence without breaking your budget or Being a Major.

This was part of the Intent.
 
Xavies said:
[X] Plan: Strong Foundations Lead to Victory

That Plan wins for me, because i find the mental Picture of Vau-Vulkesh fixing itself in just a few years hilarious. Damages? What Damages?

*Proceeds to fix itself and polish of a few Minor Craftworlds on the Side as well*

We really are Tech Support :lol:
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If your priority is the craftworld fixing itself rapidly, may I direct your attention to Maximum Repairs And Meros, which both has almost as good a chance at fixing the craftworld in a single turn as Strong Foundations and finishes the engine repair assessment? Strong Foundations' choice to put a only a token effort toward engine assessment extends the total repair time of the craftworld by at least one turn since we can't even start repairing those until the assessment actions are done.
 
DarkLight140 said:
On the one hand I agree. On the other hand as far as I can tell there is literally no way in this system for us to just make several hundred holofields and hand them to our troops as they walk out the door to reduce casualties- I had wanted to equip our guys better as was extensively discussed but weird AP functionality appears to make that completely impossible. If it is possible, by all means demonstrate what combination of actions does it.

If it's not possible to give our people better gear this turn we might as well throw our industry as hard as we can at other pressing problems so that when we can make our military work properly we have been freed from distraction.
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Then we've basically have to assume that most of the warhosts that see action this turn are going to be largely defunct until replacements are assigned. We're trying to fight off a Waaagh with ~3,000 soldiers (largely conscripts) and a handful of armored vehicles. If we have probably worse tactics than the Guard, decent equipment compared to the Guard, and substantially less training and experience than the Guard... well I expect this to look like us sending a few thousand Guardsmen. I'm kinda hoping based off the wording, our idea of militia conscripts is only a few years of training- because otherwise this is going to just end in a bloody mess.

Regardless, I think refusing to build any wargear whatsoever this turn simply because it can't deploy is going to completely hamstring us. A militia line detachment has 78 soldiers, and a single IFV. Our Militia Warhosts have a whopping.... 4 IFVs spread throughout the entirety. Just giving a Militia Warhost an additional IFV per 'major' detachment is going to be over 1000 EP. Giving every militia man in a single Militia Warhost a light armored Hard Suit? 1,032 EP. 1,056 EP per Militia Warhost to give all the Hearthguards holo-fields because their experience is currently literally irreplaceable. At absolute most, we can scrape 17,200 EP next turn.That's 12,000 EP gone just to go from 1 IFV per 80 men to 1 IFV per 40, to given them body armor, and marginally protect the elites for our 4 saddest Warhosts.

We will not get the army we want if we spent a 10k EP building material we know we'll use this turn. We will not get an army we can feel is meaningfully better when we have to a) replace all the dead and lost from this turn and b) have to squeeze blood from a stone to make a portion of our military marginally less pathetic. Are people excited at the prospect of saying 'the militia are a lost cause let's just focus on the 4 named warhosts and use the fodder until they're dead?'... because they're probably going to be on the cutting room floor first. We have billions of Militia waiting in the wings, but Hearthguard? Battle Psykers? Tanks? Those are valuable.

Edit: A single Forge of Vaul action isn't just some nebulous 5000 EP. It's more than doubling the measly 14 tanks in our entire army. It's going from having no organic air support whatsover to 5 detachments we can use to contest Orkish Aerial Supremacy. It's enough Holofields for 625 of our irreplaceable Hearthguard. Our military is absolutely pathetic and there are so many holes we need to patch it's a matter of how much has to be cast aside to have anything remotely viable- the time to prepare for a military rationalization was a decade or two ago, not in 5 years next turn. Just the ability to stand up or replace the major losses what little war material we have are bound to suffer is going to be absolutely vital to addressing the endemic failures and shortcomings of our sad little bunch.

Guardsmen laugh at us for how pathetically equipped we are. Guardsmen will probably still laugh at us after the rationalization.

@Alectai... how much are you willing to spend next turn? How much are you planning to use to make good the losses from this turn? What do you actually see us focusing improvement on? What Warhosts do you intend to lavish with the EP budget? These are questions I'd love to know because I can't fully square that circle myself, and I've earmarked 12k more EP to solve that problem.
 
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Karugus said:
Then we've basically have to assume that most of the warhosts that see action this turn are going to be largely defunct until replacements are assigned. We're trying to fight off a Waaagh with ~3,000 soldiers (largely conscripts) and a handful of armored vehicles. If we have probably worse tactics than the Guard, decent equipment compared to the Guard, and substantially less training and experience than the Guard... well I expect this to look like us sending a few thousand Guardsmen. I'm kinda hoping based off the wording, our idea of militia conscripts is only a few years of training- because otherwise this is going to just end in a bloody mess.

Regardless, I think refusing to build any wargear whatsoever this turn simply because it can't deploy is going to completely hamstring us. A militia line detachment has 78 soldiers, and a single IFV. Our Militia Warhosts have a whopping.... 4 IFVs spread throughout the entirety. Just giving a Militia Warhost an additional IFV per 'major' detachment is going to be over 1000 EP. Giving every militia man in a single Militia Warhost a light armored Hard Suit? 1,032 EP. 1,056 EP per Militia Warhost to give all the Hearthguards holo-fields because their experience is currently literally irreplaceable. At absolute most, we can scrape 17,200 EP next turn.That's 12,000 EP gone just to go from 1 IFV per 80 men to 1 IFV per 40, to given them body armor, and marginally protect the elites for our 4 saddest Warhosts.

We will not get the army we want if we spent a 10k EP building material we know we'll use this turn. We will not get an army we can feel is meaningfully better when we have to a) replace all the dead and lost from this turn and b) have to squeeze blood from a stone to make a portion of our military marginally less pathetic. Are people excited at the prospect of saying 'the militia are a lost cause let's just focus on the 4 named warhosts and use the fodder until they're dead?'... because they're probably going to be on the cutting room floor first. We have billions of Militia waiting in the wings, but Hearthguard? Battle Psykers? Tanks? Those are valuable.

Edit: A single Forge of Vaul action isn't just some nebulous 5000 EP. It's more than doubling the measly 14 tanks in our entire army. It's going from having no organic air support whatsover to 5 detachments we can use to contest Orkish Aerial Supremacy. It's enough Holofields for 625 of our irreplaceable Hearthguard. Our military is absolutely pathetic and there are so many holes we need to patch it's a matter of how much has to be cast aside to have anything remotely viable- the time to prepare for a military rationalization was a decade or two ago, not in 5 years next turn. Just the ability to stand up or replace the major losses what little war material we have are bound to suffer is going to be absolutely vital to addressing the endemic failures and shortcomings of our sad little bunch.

Guardsmen laugh at us for how pathetically equipped we are. Guardsmen will probably still laugh at us after the rationalization.
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You're actually somewhat better off than Guard, since unlike the crappy flack armor they get Wraithbone plates actually are bulletproof/able to take lasgun and stubber fire directly, at least on the actual plates; combined with essentially higher physical statistics and the way that most of them are going to be riding an Attack Barge--which lets them fire out, since it's an open-topped design--for mobility, which the average Guardsman wishes he had, and the fact that literally every Fire squad is packing a couple of Flamers and the devil's own Flash-bang grenade launcher, and they'll be rather harder to kill than one might expect.
 
Karugus said:
@Alectai... how much are you willing to spend next turn? How much are you planning to use to make good the losses from this turn? What do you actually see us improving on? What Warhosts do you intend to lavish with the EP budget? These are questions I'd love to know because I can't fully square that circle myself, and I've earmarked 12k more EP to solve that problem.
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Okay, and here's my question for you

"How does building all these guns help them right now"

Since we can't give them those guns and armor

You're treating this like it's an all or nothing, "Every Space Elf alive fights and every one who doesn't have the best possible gear dies screaming". That up to 10,000 EP is far too little to even remotely cover our needs when we actually have the leisure to actually give them these guns and armor.

Because we can't do that, we can't modify units yet because we don't even know how to organize them. The only thing that doing a crash building operation does for us right now is "Build a shitton of guns and holo-fields that we can't actually give to anyone because whoops we goofed"

Yes, we need to make those investments eventually, but I'm gambling that "Getting the Repairs done right this second" is a better choice than "Build a shitton of guns and equipment that we can't actually give anyone yet because everything is still smouldering"

The insanity you're going with is the idea that we have to raise multiple Warhosts, when chances are even one equipped to the standards you're arguing is going to cut through almost anything presently on the table like a hot knife through butter. "IFVs for every platoon" is a luxury that Major Craftworlds in modern 40K can't afford, treating that as our minimum standard and then freaking out because we can't spam Warhosts with that.

I have an actual plan here, that plan primarily being "Get a few Militia groups updated to better standards, rotate out our more veteran squads to kit them out with the best we've got, cycle this until we have a solid core of well geared Warhosts that we can use for self defense and for projecting power if we have to." What I'm not doing is assuming that we're going to be throwing every Warhost we have into every meatgrinder on the table. The force that's gone to Meros is well beyond what we were quoted as being the necessary amount to hold our ground, with three Actually Geared Warhosts of decently skilled fighters with two Militia able to provide some mass from behind that layer of elites. I want to keep our current free Detachments for now because I'm going to gear them up next turn and then form them up into a proper Warhost so we can start that rotation at a discount, and transfer their previous gear to a Militia squad to step them up.
 
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Mechanis said:
You would be getting (limited by gear not AP) Steward actions to re-equip existing Detachments/Warhosts, though they would have to be at the craftworld/not doing anything at the start of the turn.
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Reminder that this is how the requipment goes next turn.
As is people seem pretty happy to get what goes for our military killed of by orks because they think a few thousand people mostly in gear worse-about same level that what the guard gets will hold against an ork waarg, without horrendous losses. The fighting will need a shit of of EP to keep going and cheaping out on Turn one looks like a really bad idea.

[X] Plan: Stoke the Fires, Light the Forges, side grade
-[X][Steward] Rationalize Infantry (1 AP)
-[X][Steward]Rationalize Vehicles (2 AP)
-[X][Steward]Rationalize Fleet (4 AP)
-[X][Steward] Tend to the Fields, Ye sons and Daughters (2 AP)
-[X][Steward] Harken the Exiles (1 AP)
-[X][Bonesinger] The Fleets of Arach-Qin: Lighter Than a Feather
-[X][Bonesinger] The Fleets of Arach-Qin: Lords of the Void
-[X][Bonesinger] Develop Wraithbone Warsuit (1 point)
-[X][Bonesinger] Develop Wraithweave Brigantine Armor (1 point)
-[X][Bonesinger] Forge of Vaul: Produce Wargear (5000 EP max) (x2)
-[X][Bonesinger] Dispatch aid to Zahr-Tann: 4 points.
-[X][Bonesinger] Dispatch aid to Meros: 4 points.
-[X][Bonesinger] Assess the damage to Vau-Vulkesh's engines: 2 Points
-[X][Bonesinger] Stockpile Wargear: 2 points
-[X][Seer] Scry the Future: 1 point
--[X]"When will the Orks attack Craftworld Meros?"
-[X][Seer] Scry the Present: 1 point.
--X]"From which direction will they attack Craftworld Meros next?"
-[X] [Locked] The Flaw, The Curse, The Claim: 8 points.
-[X][Seeker] Reverse-engineer Plasma Blasters (1 AP initial)
-[X][Seeker] Reverse-engineer Grav-weapons (4 2 AP, est 1-3 turns)
-[X][Seeker] Reverse-engineer Conversion Fields (6 AP initial)
-[X] [Locked] Dispatch Warhosts: 1st Heavy Milita, 2nd Heavy Militia, Blades of Isha, Vaul Hammer, 1st Militia.
-[X] [Locked] Send Forth your Fleets: 4 Combat Brigs, 12 Battle Carracks, 5 Battle Caravels, 27 Assault Ketch, 25 Lance Cutters, 20 Lance Sloops
-[X][Warrior] Dispatch ships to scout the Webway (4 AP)
--[X] 1x Battle Carrack, 2x Assault Ketch, 2x Lance Sloop per scouting group

and some approval voting:
[X] Plan: The Fires of Vau-Vulkesh will spread, and the forests of Orks will burn
 
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Alectai said:
Okay, and here's my question for you

"How does building all these guns help them right now"

Since we can't give them those guns and armor

You're treating this like it's an all or nothing, "Every Space Elf alive fights and every one who doesn't have the best possible gear dies screaming". That up to 10,000 EP is far too little to even remotely cover our needs when we actually have the leisure to actually give them these guns and armor.

Because we can't do that, we can't modify units yet because we don't even know how to organize them. The only thing that doing a crash building operation does for us right now is "Build a shitton of guns and holo-fields that we can't actually give to anyone because whoops we goofed"

Yes, we need to make those investments eventually, but I'm gambling that "Getting the Repairs done right this second" is a better choice than "Build a shitton of guns and equipment that we can't actually give anyone yet because everything is still smouldering"

The insanity you're going with is the idea that we have to raise multiple Warhosts, when chances are even one equipped to the standards you're arguing is going to cut through almost anything presently on the table like a hot knife through butter. "IFVs for every platoon" is a luxury that Major Craftworlds in modern 40K can't afford, treating that as our minimum standard and then freaking out because we can't spam Warhosts with that.

I have an actual plan here, that plan primarily being "Get a few Militia groups updated to better standards, rotate out our more veteran squads to kit them out with the best we've got, cycle this until we have a solid core of well geared Warhosts that we can use for self defense and for projecting power if we have to." What I'm not doing is assuming that we're going to be throwing every Warhost we have into every meatgrinder on the table. The force that's gone to Meros is well beyond what we were quoted as being the necessary amount to hold our ground, with three Actually Geared Warhosts of decently skilled fighters with two Militia able to provide some mass from behind that layer of elites. I want to keep our current free Detachments for now because I'm going to gear them up next turn and then form them up into a proper Warhost so we can start that rotation at a discount, and transfer their previous gear to a Militia squad to step them up.
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You misunderstand me. They're fucked this turn. We can't help anyone we're sending this turn, I was wrong and I've made my peace with that. My point is they're not going to get nearly enough if you slam every source of EP next turn for the absolute minimum. And that's without us taking any material losses this turn like one of our dozen tanks. We flat out can't afford to do major rationalizations in a single turn's worth of production. But if we stockpile gear this turn we know we'll want more of or need to replace we can afford to do more with the rationalizations. Maybe ever HG squad leader gets a holofield. Maybe we can roll out more body armor. The rationalizations can go a lot further if we plan them now and start budgeting accordingly rather than making do in the moment next turn. I'll concede that I didn't know we had WoG this was more than enough to address the Waaagh. I've been assuming this will be a longer term affair.

You keep talking about raising new Warhosts and I've never once advocated for entirely new formations- the closest I ever got was saying wouldn't an air support detachment be nice. My point is that replacing and improving the gear for those existing warhosts costs that much. IFVs for every platoon was never what I said and it's getting ridiculous that you won't actually quote the accusations you're making. I'm asking you what you're actually expecting to accomplish next turn because I have tried to consistently give numbers and information to explain why we're going to fall so short of a capable military and you can't even be bothered to say '2 Forge AP and 3 Bonesinger is what I'm thinking'.

We have roughly 1,400 HG spread throughout the entirety of our Heavy and regular Militia Warhosts, with another ~928 HG in the 3 named Warhosts. Assuming a 4 cost medium armor, that's 9,312 EP. There's roughly 344 Guardians in a Militia Warhost, probably around ~300 in a Heavy Militia Warhost. Assuming a 2 cost brigantine that's 688 per Militia Warhost, 600 per Heavy Militia Warhost. I do think it's likely we're going to need to account for replacing lost equipment/soldiers too, unless we plan on simply reorganizing the militia and integrating the survivors into the intact formations. Frankly, my plan has no chance at winning by this point, so all I'm looking for is a guarantee that we have an idea of the limitations we're going to be operating under next turn because it's looking pretty lean. Tell me what you plan on so I can at least try and use all these numbers I've been looking at to offer anything constructive, because that would certainly be a better use of my time than being lampooned for 'trying to raise more warhosts and demanding luxuries a modern craftworld can't afford'.

I know you haven't expressed a huge amount of interest in uparmoring the HG, but I think if you want to preserve and create experience it's worth considering up armor at least some of them. Holofields for an HG squad leader is also another possibility- that's only 3.2k EP.
 
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...

How the hell is three Hearthguard troops with hardsuits and actual military training backed by two militia wings for added mass meaning "They're Fucked?"

I specifically picked our best equipped and best trained Warhosts to lead the charge, and gave them two militia units to help get them some seasoning, and intentionally overdeployed what we were told was needed so our losses wouldn't be too crazy.

Unless you're just trying to ignore the QM saying "I mean, while it's IG equiviliant for Eldar, it's still for Eldar and they're not going to die from a light breeze like Guardsmen do"
 
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Alectai said:
...

How the hell is three Hearthguard troops with hardsuits and actual military training backed by two militia wings for added mass meaning "They're Fucked?"

I specifically picked our best equipped and best trained Warhosts to lead the charge, and gave them two militia units to help get them some seasoning, and intentionally overdeployed what we were told was needed so our losses wouldn't be too crazy.

Unless you're just trying to ignore the QM saying "I mean, while it's IG equiviliant for Eldar, it's still for Eldar and they're not going to die from a light breeze like Guardsmen do"
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See. This is why you should be quoting people, do you know how much time you would have saved if your response to these sentiments was to actually use WoG rather than avoid actively responding to people?
 
Alectai said:
-[X][Warrior] Raise Detachments (3 AP)
--[X] New Model Forces derived from our Rationalization and Bonesinger Implementation this turn.
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We still need the gear to equip said forces and this plans doesn't seem to create any gear (which we don't have as our stockpiles are empty).
Even if we only need it at the end i think that is a bit of an oversight.

At least with taking the 1 forge action from creating a 5000EP.
 
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Skjadir said:
We still need the gear to equip said forces and this plans doesn't seem to create any gear (which we don't have as our stockpiles are empty).
Even if we only need it at the end i think that is a bit of an oversight.

At least with taking the 1 forge action from creating a 5000EP.
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Yeah, Strong Foundation tries to raise detatchments with equipment that doesn't exist (and which we can't build since our rationalizations are likely to use the new armor designs, which isn't on the Wargear list this turn and thus can't be built right now). I think it also scouts with more ships than are permitted on scouting actions- those are supposed to be five ships max if I read the directions correctly. But that's a level of mechanical error that's probably present in all the proposed plans. I'm sure mine is messed up somewhere, yours uses no Warrior AP at all (which I guess isn't technically an error but not even doing any scouting is pretty bad), and so forth.
 
So, idea. Gerwalk style mechs, or transforming mechs. So, mechs that can also be flyers. Not sure how viable it is, but being able to manufacture multirole vehicles that can fill both air and ground vehicle roles could save us a lot of EP.
 
dgr11897 said:
So, idea. Gerwalk style mechs, or transforming mechs. So, mechs that can also be flyers. Not sure how viable it is, but being able to manufacture multirole vehicles that can fill both air and ground vehicle roles could save us a lot of EP.
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It depends on what you want. Transforming vehicles feels a bit gimmicky, when all eldar vehicles can fly, (including their titans).

I think the eventual goal is to put our troops in as heavy armor as we can make it. Our population is not replaceable, so we're probably going to try going all out on defence, with Conversion fields and Wraithbone plate. It's also possible to put a jetpack and a holo field on heavy armor (Eldar shadow spectres aspect).
The combo of Jetpack and Conversion field on heavy armor with a Jetpack should also be possible.

That's kind of a flying mech too, right?

---
Anyway, since the leading plan has a giant lead...

What do people think of using something similar to Eldar heavy weapons platforms attached to their troops, but instead of a heavy weapons, we put the smallest vehicle scale Grav shield on it? Basically, portable cover.
@Mechanis: does this sound feasible at all?
 
IronFist said:
What do people think of using something similar to Eldar heavy weapons platforms attached to their troops, but instead of a heavy weapons, we put the smallest vehicle scale Grav shield on it? Basically, portable cover.
@Mechanis: does this sound feasible at all?
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That's more or less the Serpent's Scale Platform used by Aeldari Storm Guardians in terms of purpose. So it should absolutely be doable, if not with Grav Tech then with Conversion fields at least.

Serpent's Scale - Warhammer 40k - Lexicanum

wh40k.lexicanum.com wh40k.lexicanum.com
 
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Deployable energy shields are also a Dawn of War 2 Guardian upgrade, altho IDK how things are on TT.

Anyway, yeah, most vehicles Eldar got got limited flight capabilities. Wraithlord - Eldar Dreadnought - doesn't, but that's prolly fixable. Their titans also can't fly... but they can jump.
 
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Mechanis said:
Apparently I wasn't clear? You can put things getting ready to produce in your rationalization Plan, because they'll be Production ready by the time you are able to start actually raising the unit in question, but you still aren't going to be able to produce any until they are in your list of available Wargear. Now, that being said , there's plenty of things you have already that aren't properly distributed, like Holo-fields, that you could produce in job lots for distribution next turn.
Basically, if it's not on your Wargear list, you can't make it with a Production action.
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So, just in case, the pipeline for introducing new tech is Research (Seeker) -> Produce (Bonesinger) -> Design/Rationalize (Steward) -> Raise (Warrior), with steps 2 and 3 able to be done in parallel, correct?
 
Mechanis said:
Note that even a destroyer is a massive construction project which can take multiple turns at this stage, and will effectively soft-lock that action for some time.
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Does this mean we are only allowed to build one ship (or more if we select for a batch production) at a time, or does this mean AP is reserved for the construction until it's finished?
 
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