The needler is a bullet hose because it increases the RoF compared to the original to compensate for decreased accuracy, I think.
A Different Breed (Warhammer 29K)
The needler is a bullet hose because it increases the RoF compared to the original to compensate for decreased accuracy, I think.
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But why would Needlers shooting faster than Fatecasters mean that Starblasters also shoot faster than Fatecasters? Fate-weaponry can shoot slower than the equivalent Needler whilst still being faster than a Star-weapon.
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
Correct. That isn't really in comparison to other guns. To be perfectly honest I don't know which one is faster, starblasters or fatecasters and I don't think it matters. One bullet one kill, with the fatecaster.
Suppressing fire is for losers.
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i think needlers fire faster than the fatecasters, because they use that as compensation for the loss of accuracy.
Same with the spike carbines, who try to make up for the loss of accuracy by shooting bigger projectiles.
But the fatecaster rifle is a heavy weapon that costs almost as much as a starcarver.
It's likely that the fatecaster has a much higher rof than the starcarver, a tradeoff for being much less useful against heavier target.
There's only so much damage a projectile the size of a finger can do to a tank.
They can, but the description of the Hellgun makes it seem like the RoF of the Starblasters with the same RoF may also be exceptionally high, depending on what 'sheets of lasfire' mean.
All we know about Fatecaster RoF is that they're noticably slower than a needler. There's nothing I can see to suggest that they're particularly fast, but we do know Starblasters are particularly fast.
I expect Fastcaster to be particularly effective again individual high value targets. They seem coded as super-sniper rifles to me, as opposed to the Starblaster super-battle/assault rifles.
One bullet one kill for enemies that rely on armour rather than omnidirectional energy shields, which is most, but not all. Also probably not against Necrons, who are made of amorphous liquid metal, like a T-1000 with less shapeshifting, so don't have weak spots.
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Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
Most foot-slogging infantry, and even most mechanized or armored infantry, do not use omni-directional energy shields. Even during the Great Crusades. Even Necron Warriors do not use omnidirectional shields. Their vehicles and canoptek constructs do, but those are not the majority of their forces.
Necrons are also not made of 'amorphous' liquid. Necodermis isnt an amorphous metal like the T-1000. It can remember its shape, and with the assistance of the necron machinery and technology can even pull itself together. But necrons have discrete parts and components inside them in order to function.
The only necrodermis construct that is homogenous are the C'Tan shells, and even they require the animating force of the C'Tan/C'Tan shards. Of them, the only one who can actually just 'will' stuff into being using raw necrodermis is the void dragon, who is not only a 'god', but the god of technology.
The fatecaster rifle is primarily an anti-infantry weapon, where its targets exist at scales where the projectile can actually do damage. Yes an omni-directional shield would probably thwart it for a time, but we are unlikely to encounter many forces that field something like that, and we would probably not want to throw a fatecaster, or at least a single fate caster, at such a target.
That is what developing specialist forces are for.
This is probably where we are talking at crosspurposes. My understanding of fatecaster weaponry is not as sniper weapons.
Its more like this.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsQQnYtSOXQ
Jesus christ why does no one use a smart link with their smart guns to take advantage of the autotargeting capability?
Anyway that is what I understand fatecaster weapons to be. They are an automatic gun that can fire what are essentially smart bullets that know exactly where they should hit you to do the most damage possible, until you are dead. Its not a sniper rifle. I am sure you could make a variant that is a sniper rifle in that it fires an insanely powerful projectile over insanely long range to do maximum damage. But the fatecaster technology just determines how the gun fires. It then gave us a variant for each potential form factor.
From pistols all the way up to naval-scale weaponry. Our sniper weapons are probably very specifically deliniated for us.
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i think to turn a fatecaster into a true sniper weapon, we need better bullets. Not just a sliver of wraithbone. The gun is about as good as it gets.
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Sidenote, but I wonder if wraithbone can be used as material for rod of god, orbital bombardment
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It can, and it would be reasonsbly effective.
Depending on the weight, it wouldn't be as good as tungsten... But you could also have the device generate new rods, like a needler generates bullets.
Or a fatescope to get it to hit critical infrastructure, or avoid anti air defences.
That's basically just a Spike Cannon or Fatetwister.
Spike Cannon said:
Fatetwister said:
I don't think we can be sure about that. I can see at least one case that is quite likely no matter what: protecting Exodites. Even if tip of the spear operations against critical assets of invaders will be important, we will require some sort of army capable of holding the line, because dumping it on folks who rely on "don't get notice and don't get hit" defense, who we're supposed to protect, is not likely to go down well. Depending on political situation post-Moot it's also not impossible for at least certain groups of Aeldari to actually start considering establishing protectorates, actively policing territories and otherwise developing into less nomadic society. I think it's worth to have at least 1-2 types of detachments of line-holding troops that aren't emergency militia.
We absolutely have reasons and a desire to take and hold ground. The entire Meros defense Operation for example had us hold ground (Space) and we were extremely lucky with how badly the Orks rolled and how quickly we managed repair Meros before Grimtusk's main fleet showed up.
We can't rely on that sort of luck in the future and just from this Aeldmoot I can already see another defensive operation we should take part in in the near future.
I mentioned this before but Craftworld Kher-Ys was noted to be working on developing a way to create Spirit Stones and they canonically get destroyed by Slaaneshi daemons.
Since we know IC that they are working on Spirit Stones and we are pushing to be the leader of a coherent Radical/Adaptionist Faction we are likely to be militarily investing in keeping them around beyond just the fact that being able to create Spirit Stones is a huge boon for everyone.
That means committing both ground and space assets to protect them because they're going to have a named Greater Daemon and it's daemonic warhost banging on their doors.
Given Mechanis has mentioned that the named Radical/Adaptionist Craftworlds are basically ghosts that are dead by 40k we are going to have our plate full making sure that they stay alive in this timeline and that's going to involve a lot of holding ground.
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l don't think we can decide on a dedicated sniper until we unlock meson anyways.
I am coming around to the suitability of starcrystal based carbine mainstay. at blaster scale, grav guns are too range limited, las guns too weak, plasma too prone to overheating. it would be worth cutting back on our naval starlance weaponry, as many of the problems with our other tech are resolved by scaling them to Naval or Heavy Naval, and we"d have a solid chunk of existing starlance and megalance simply by refitting our existing Carrack and combat brig. we won't have AP to spare towards building new vessels for at least half a dozen turns anyways, so we can afford to wait and spend the AP to design a second line of capitol vessels to start expanding our fleet.
regarding the hold the line discussion, that's what front line power armor units and a heavily reinforced vehicle that functions as essentially mobile fortifications with firing posts and hellfire turrets.
I am coming around to the suitability of starcrystal based carbine mainstay. at blaster scale, grav guns are too range limited, las guns too weak, plasma too prone to overheating. it would be worth cutting back on our naval starlance weaponry, as many of the problems with our other tech are resolved by scaling them to Naval or Heavy Naval, and we"d have a solid chunk of existing starlance and megalance simply by refitting our existing Carrack and combat brig. we won't have AP to spare towards building new vessels for at least half a dozen turns anyways, so we can afford to wait and spend the AP to design a second line of capitol vessels to start expanding our fleet.
no. the scale he's talking would be a yet unavailable special weapon. the kind that can devastate a hundred kilometers of planet surface with a single round.
regarding the hold the line discussion, that's what front line power armor units and a heavily reinforced vehicle that functions as essentially mobile fortifications with firing posts and hellfire turrets.
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- Location
- Utrecht
The overheating problem is only an issue for troops that aren't in power armor.
That's why the flaw was acceptable.
Because our troops will all be powered.
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- Germany
The core mission that goes before anything else for our ground forces ?
Defend the craftworld and hold the line no matter what tries to attack.
-Demon host(s)
-Large scale orc waargh
-Full on space marine legion with a few billion normal support troopers
That's just a some of the stuff they have to be able to hold against.
It's very much the core that we need to build around that, in part because as our faction quest nears completion chaos will try harder and harder to wipe us out.
Defend the craftworld and hold the line no matter what tries to attack.
-Demon host(s)
-Large scale orc waargh
-Full on space marine legion with a few billion normal support troopers
That's just a some of the stuff they have to be able to hold against.
It's very much the core that we need to build around that, in part because as our faction quest nears completion chaos will try harder and harder to wipe us out.
RandomTechPriest
He Who Steals Toasters
i feel like our logistics are going to be revolutionized the second we learn about weapons like guardian spears. Melee, but gun? Instantly simplifies melee troops into 1 weapon that can do everything. Hell, give it to everyone. When the ranged troops can stab just as well as melee troops what's the point in dividing them?
Which brings up one of the major locations ground battles will occur on that we can't solve with orbital bombardment: our own Craftworld.
DarkLight140
Credit to Team
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Speaking of all troops being powered, and of the earlier conversation about the real cost of troops needing to be evaluated based upon the full squad and equipment rather than just the cost of individual weapons, I've been contemplating whether we can save on costs by concentrating firepower. Consider the following:
If we want to bring a bunch of guns to the table, right now we basically have one trooper per gun. This means that if we want to deploy, say, a bunch of Needle Rifles or Sunblasters, we are paying the cost of a void guard warsuit for every rifle, plus potentially the cost of any secondary weapons they're not normally using (pistols, close combat weapons, grenades) again once per rifle. But usually what we are getting out of this in terms of firepower delivered to the battlefield is just the one gun.
If we design a specialist suit which carries more guns, then we can carry just as many guns while reducing overhead and thus having more spare EP to do things like keep our troops alive. Consider the following suit design, with a total cost of 8 EP per suit:
Heavy Power Armor
Autotargeters
Holo-Field Projector
Improved Power-Assist
Ranged Longarm Hardpoint
Ranged Heavy Weapon Hardpoint
If the Ithilmar's weapon capacity is taken as reference for heavy suits in general, this design could carry 2 rifles and 2 heavy weapons. To carry that same number of guns with Void Guard troopers would require 4 troops and thus 24 EP for armor/overhead (potentially more due to secondary gear); in contrast this requires 8 EP total for a single suit of armor, a two-thirds savings on overhead cost.
Now, the overhead costs are not very important if we're spending money on the really good weapons, because if you're spending 25 or 30 EP per gun then the overhead is relatively small in proportionate terms. But what if you're using needlers (6 EP rifles and 10 EP heavy)? Then carrying around two of each weapon is 32 EP for weapons and 24 EP for armor, or more than 40% of the cost. Switch this out to one guy in a specialist guncarrier suit carrying all four weapons and it's 32 EP for weapons and 8 EP for armor, or only 20% of the cost, and minimum savings of nearly 30% over the four-man squad, with that number expected to rapidly rise if we give them additional infantry systems. We could use those savings on more troops, or something like universal deployment of infantry conversion fields so that those guns are better protected. Even better, since we have more firepower per person, every one of those transports that carries a specific number of people in open-topped slots so that they can fire has its effective firepower as a firing platform quadrupled as well.
I'm not arguing this as the one true military paradigm here, but I do think that when we start producing new suit types we should strongly consider one loaded down with extra weapons. Concentrating our firepower into less units is really EP-efficient and makes our troops much more dangerous to anything they face, aside from it being awesome to let our troops have a terrifying number of guns each.
If we want to bring a bunch of guns to the table, right now we basically have one trooper per gun. This means that if we want to deploy, say, a bunch of Needle Rifles or Sunblasters, we are paying the cost of a void guard warsuit for every rifle, plus potentially the cost of any secondary weapons they're not normally using (pistols, close combat weapons, grenades) again once per rifle. But usually what we are getting out of this in terms of firepower delivered to the battlefield is just the one gun.
If we design a specialist suit which carries more guns, then we can carry just as many guns while reducing overhead and thus having more spare EP to do things like keep our troops alive. Consider the following suit design, with a total cost of 8 EP per suit:
Heavy Power Armor
Autotargeters
Holo-Field Projector
Improved Power-Assist
Ranged Longarm Hardpoint
Ranged Heavy Weapon Hardpoint
If the Ithilmar's weapon capacity is taken as reference for heavy suits in general, this design could carry 2 rifles and 2 heavy weapons. To carry that same number of guns with Void Guard troopers would require 4 troops and thus 24 EP for armor/overhead (potentially more due to secondary gear); in contrast this requires 8 EP total for a single suit of armor, a two-thirds savings on overhead cost.
Now, the overhead costs are not very important if we're spending money on the really good weapons, because if you're spending 25 or 30 EP per gun then the overhead is relatively small in proportionate terms. But what if you're using needlers (6 EP rifles and 10 EP heavy)? Then carrying around two of each weapon is 32 EP for weapons and 24 EP for armor, or more than 40% of the cost. Switch this out to one guy in a specialist guncarrier suit carrying all four weapons and it's 32 EP for weapons and 8 EP for armor, or only 20% of the cost, and minimum savings of nearly 30% over the four-man squad, with that number expected to rapidly rise if we give them additional infantry systems. We could use those savings on more troops, or something like universal deployment of infantry conversion fields so that those guns are better protected. Even better, since we have more firepower per person, every one of those transports that carries a specific number of people in open-topped slots so that they can fire has its effective firepower as a firing platform quadrupled as well.
I'm not arguing this as the one true military paradigm here, but I do think that when we start producing new suit types we should strongly consider one loaded down with extra weapons. Concentrating our firepower into less units is really EP-efficient and makes our troops much more dangerous to anything they face, aside from it being awesome to let our troops have a terrifying number of guns each.
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dgr11897
FBI surveillance Tank
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- Behind you
I'd like to make a note about this, with what we've learned about Gear and such, it might be worth not using an integrated Holofield in this use case. Deploying it as gear is slightly more expensive, but they have an extra gear slot anyways, so why not use the slot for more Power assist or extra sensors, or more gun.
A Heavy Weapons Suit for elite units to bring lots of gun to the party seems like a good idea to me. It'd certainly make that mortar-carrier team I'd suggested for one of our elite units much more powerful. Or that Grav Thruster Lance sniper-team.
But it does mean investing a lot of EP per figure, and since that build doesn't include grav shields... keep in mind that any unit carrying that much gun is going to be a priority target for the red team. And every loss that unit takes is a lot of gun out of commission.
Matters a whole lot less if they're mostly going to be firing out of a transport vehicle while hiding behind its shielding, granted.
dgr11897
FBI surveillance Tank
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Also please remember these guys will probably have Conversion Shields and Holofields, so even short of a Grav Shield they're quite durable, and it's still Heavy Power armor, which means its got some thick ass plating that will resist a lot of fire.
RandomTechPriest
He Who Steals Toasters
2 sidearm hardpoints fit the Ithilmar armor far better than an extra heavy weapon or ranged weapon. There are 2 jobs that I can see that Ithilmar does that VGA or vehicles cant do better or lower cost: boarding and squad heavy weapon support. For boarding actions having 2 short ranged, fast firing weapons can support them better then 1 heavy, especially when being attacked from multiple angles. For heavy weapon support the 2 sidearms keep enemies at range and allow them to target more important targets rather than defend themselves.
Does the semi powered void guard armor count for that?
It's covered
Works for both semi and full powered.
Edit: for Plasma weapons I mean.