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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Tasoli said:
There also spells like Mathilde's tool free enchantements spells that are codified but is not considered useful enough to add to spellbook. We know it is one of the crterias that they look for.

But let me turn it around to you, Are you actually arguing that Gold Wizards can't turn one metal to another? Or are you just trying to nitpick.
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I don't think they can turn things into other metals, no. Or at least, that it's not useful. We know 100% they can't do it permanently. They couldn't use it to make alloys, because the reversion would then change the properties, and quite unpredictably (including the fact that not all metals alloy, and not to the same portions). And they have a spell that lets them shape metal into anything they want, so even the use of being able to manipulate the metal's shape is minimal.
 
deathofrats0808 said:
I don't think they can turn things into other metals, no. Or at least, that it's not useful. We know 100% they can't do it permanently. They couldn't use it to make alloys, because the reversion would then change the properties, and quite unpredictably (including the fact that not all metals alloy, and not to the same portions). And they have a spell that lets them shape metal into anything they want, so even the use of being able to manipulate the metal's shape is minimal.
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Balthazar Gelt did turn the Count of Nordland's treasury to lead, with no implication that it turned back later.
 
Not to sound accusatory or anything (it's actually quite amusing and endearing in a way), but you two have had this exact same conversation before:

Boney said:
deathofrats0808 said:
Andres said:
Mopman43 said:
Like, when Theoderic Gausser* was preparing to make war on Hochland for his territorial claims in 2516, Karl Franz didn't put a hit out on him like it's the mob.

He had Balthazar Gelt turn his treasury into lead. Much more measured response.
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Isn't true, permanent transmutation what the Gold Order's got as their biggest ambition? Seems like they already solved it there.
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There's no guarantee the transmutation was permanent. It just needed to last long enough to screw over Gausser. It's not like the mercenaries are suddenly going to believe when he says "wait, no, I have the money now".
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The thing about the 'true transmutation' thing is that it takes a fair bit of science to understand why it's not actually happening in fires and stomachs. When people at this level of understanding are talking about 'true transmutation' they mean from something worthless to something valuable, not the other way around, because turning something valuable to something worthless is everyday. To start sitting up and going 'hang on, what?!' when gold permanently turns to lead requires you to understand the difference between a compound and an element.
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Here, Boney doesn't outright say here that Gelt did make the gold->lead transmutation permanent, but this is explicitly saying that it'd be easier to make a 'worthless' permanent transmutation. True Transmutation is true because it's ideal. Much like how Johann gilding himself doesn't make him very heavy like gold is (one of its material properties), it gives him the conceptual advantages of gold.

Unmentioned but also relevant: Transmutation of Lead already exists, and while it's temporary in the tabletop, it could be permanent in this quest, or be made permanent via a Mastery, I suppose.
 
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GrimTheMad said:
Honestly I like that we can only look at the crown with proper justification, because it makes it clear that we don't actually have any reason to do so.

If we did, we could, but we don't, so we can't.
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Yeah I wanna look mainly for curiosity's sake. See me voting for Pickle Requests lol. Honestly the main way I can see this being practical is if Mathilde somehow learned or figured out Belegars crown was K8P's Waystone control relic and suspected something similar might be going on with the Phoenix Crown.
 
Parabola said:
Unmentioned but also relevant: Transmutation of Lead already exists, and while it's temporary in the tabletop, it could be permanent in this quest, or be made permanent via a Mastery, I suppose.
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For fucks sake thank you, I wasn't even alking about permenant, I said temp transformation would be useful for blacksmithig.
deathofrats0808 said:
I don't think they can turn things into other metals, no.
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We literally saw an altar that turns people and their armor in to quick silver, so I don't know what the hell you are talking about.

deathofrats0808 said:
They couldn't use it to make alloys, because the reversion would then change the properties, and quite unpredictably (including the fact that not all metals alloy, and not to the same portions)
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I didn't say it was plug and play, I said there could be all kinds of uses that Max could spend time reseaching. If you don't believe that talk to some material engineer, they can tell you all about what would be possible if they could do it. But I am guessing that you think it would be useless.
 
Tasoli said:
We literally saw an altar that turns people and their armor in to quick silver, so I don't know what the hell you are talking about.
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While I definitely think alchemists research how to turn metals into other metals (as part of the eternal search for True Transmutation, of being able to turn anything into gold, the 'ideal' metal), I feel obliged to point out that that's not exactly what the Battle Altar does:

Boney said:
[...]"It's a variation upon Law of Form that was never able to be scaled down or delivered at range," one of the Gold Order researchers explains to you, "but instead of steel, it gives the material properties of quicksilver - only for a couple of seconds, but that's enough. [...]
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Law of Form doesn't turn things to steel, it makes them like steel. So the battle altar should turn flesh and bone like quicksilver. Instead of unfortunate enemies having their flesh turned into quicksilver like they were the T-1000 Terminator, it should do the more horrifying thing of (partly or wholly) melting them into a puddle of flesh and blood and bone.
 
Parabola said:
Law of Form doesn't turn things to steel, it makes them like steel.
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Which is all you need for blacksmithing work. If you can make Titanum to pretend to be copper for a bit you won't need a blast furnace to do any forging especially alloys of the stuff , you can use any hand pumped forge you like. Considering the empire might not have any blast furnaces at all it would become the only way to forge that stuff at all.

And before somebody jumps at me for us not having any I want to say I know, it is just an example for the future, nitpicking this won't invalidate my argument either.
 
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Tasoli said:
Considering the empire might not have any blast furnaces at all it would become the only way to forge that stuff at all.
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I feel like the Dwarfs definitely have blast furnaces, and the Empire probably has them?

Not titanium though, that's been thoroughly discussed because of its use in Waystones.
 
Mopman43 said:
Not titanium though, that's been thoroughly discussed because of its use in Waystones.
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Tasoli said:
And before somebody jumps at me for us not having any I want to say I know, it is just an example for the future, nitpicking this won't invalidate my argument either.
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Sigh.

I don't like how arguments are happening here recently. I am off until the update. After all nobody reads what write so why write them.

I mean I had already given up on the concept of "that goes without saying" but this is beyond pale.
 
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infinityDivided said:
Point of order, he's speculated on continuing to gild his upper torso so as to facilitate the strength of his artificial arm.
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I thought his torso was already guilded? I think it's just his head (and some of his internal organs) that's left.

Guilding his head would be a big force multiplier for him, since his head is his one huge weak point and vulnerability compared to the rest of his body, and he's trained and equipped for being a powerful melee fighter. Normally, you'd cover for that weakness with a good helmet, but wizards can't wear proper armored helmets, and guilding gets to make you a lot tougher without worrying about that limitation.

Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Theoretically there's a "temporary change metal to another metal" spell, but it's either too tricky to learn and cast, or the college doesn't believe it's a useful spell for their magisters to learn.
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That totally exists, and it's called transmutation. The catch is that it's always temporary, so you can't just use it to generate, say, quality iron from stone or something. Final Transmutation takes advantage of this to transmute a person into gold, killing them (presumably, the transmutation reversing not bringing them back to life is a bigger mystery). But the spells already exist: ones that make any material as tough as steel, or making any metal armor as heavy as led.
 
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SaltyWaffles said:
I thought his torso was already guilded? I think it's just his head (and some of his internal organs) that's left.
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Boney said:
Tests of exactly how much strength the arm is capable of are discontinued after he badly strains his still-ungilded shoulder muscles, proving that whatever the ceiling of his new strength is, it's higher than the portion of his body that remains merely flesh and blood - though it might not be if he continues the gradual gilding of his torso, he muses aloud one day.
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Is the fact that Ulric likes 1v1 combat a hint that he originally wasn't a wolf god? Wolves are pack hunters. Course then there's the question of why he favoured wolves instead of other animals.
 
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Andres said:
Is the fact that Ulric like 1v1 combat a hint that he originally wasn't a wolf god? Wolves are pack hunters. Course then there's the question of why he favoured wolves instead of other animals.
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Maybe because of cooperation to survive despite harsh environments? Since individually wolves work together to take on larger and more fearsome creatures, sort of like how humans need to work together to defeat monsters?
 
Andres said:
Is the fact that Ulric like 1v1 combat a hint that he originally wasn't a wolf god? Wolves are pack hunters.
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When wolves fight over the dominance of the pack, the presumative leaders duel ("defend your honour. do not refuse challenges"). Then, with the leader established, the pack follows ("always obey your betters").
inb4 'alpha wolves aren't a thing': Ulric could get His attributes from mortal thoughts about wolves, rather than the bioligcal reality. If this view of wolves is common enough, it might be reflected in the Aethyr
Andres said:
Course then there's the question of why he favoured wolves instead of other animals.
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Could be simple opportunism. Lupos' stomping grounds were right next to the Fauschlag, and when He/His followers defeated Lupos He figured that He might as well incorporate that into His domains. Or it could have been a play for power - wolves are a potent domain as there are at least twice as many wolves as there are other mortals.
 
mathymancer said:
Could be simple opportunism. Lupos' stomping grounds were right next to the Fauschlag, and when He/His followers defeated Lupos He figured that He might as well incorporate that into His domains. Or it could have been a play for power - wolves are a potent domain as there are at least twice as many wolves as there are other mortals.
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It's from a novel, but if we go with the story that the Children of Ulric preyed on the Teutogen before the Cult of Ulric drove them out, then that could reflect a history where the Children of Lupos were preying on the Teutogen before the Ulricans defeated them and engaged in a substantial amount of rebranding.
 
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