Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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It feels like something to do because it's on the list of things that can be done. We saw we could break favor systems by being cool enough, so on some level that's now a goal every time we find a favor system. So, steam achievement. I wouldn't normally kill the first boss with a ladle, but since it's on the achievement least, sure, I'll go for it.
Also, I very purposefully said feels like rather than is; I'm sure there would be all kinds of interesting narrative effects, but I can't reliably predict them the way I can the narrative effects of a huge magic battleship, or really good armor, or half the smaller effects on the college by college plans.
A small selection of things Max could do instead of writing our papers:
Study the following artefacts:
Vampire skulls
Branulhune underwater flash
Kurgan Shrine to Mannslieb
Kurgan enchanted weapons (we'd be fools to not bring Max in on this one)
Research and develop Teclisian tributaries (does require rituals, which isn't his forte, so might have to be paired with someone else)
Research and develop material and road leylines (I wonder how conductive spider web is?)
Research and develop waystone capstone prototypes (would probably need Mathilde on hand for windherding experience)
Shoot things with his magic crossbow
Forge enchantment grade weapons and tools (but not enchant then himself) (I think we should ask Max to make a greatsword as a graduation present for Eike. She can enchant it later if she likes, and she'll only get a better one if she gets a gromril or ithilmar blade)
Old One language translation (he worked hard on the queekish, I don't know if he's willing to learn the prerequisite languages, but if he does then he'd be helpful working on the Old One language with us)
Study the following artefacts:
Vampire skulls
Branulhune underwater flash
Kurgan Shrine to Mannslieb
Kurgan enchanted weapons (we'd be fools to not bring Max in on this one)
Research and develop Teclisian tributaries (does require rituals, which isn't his forte, so might have to be paired with someone else)
Research and develop material and road leylines (I wonder how conductive spider web is?)
Research and develop waystone capstone prototypes (would probably need Mathilde on hand for windherding experience)
Shoot things with his magic crossbow
Forge enchantment grade weapons and tools (but not enchant then himself) (I think we should ask Max to make a greatsword as a graduation present for Eike. She can enchant it later if she likes, and she'll only get a better one if she gets a gromril or ithilmar blade)
Old One language translation (he worked hard on the queekish, I don't know if he's willing to learn the prerequisite languages, but if he does then he'd be helpful working on the Old One language with us)
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Nope, too close to the line, we would get burned at the stake or at the very least get some very pointed questions if we do this with anyone.
Only good for a paper so that is probably not getting done ins general
True, Horstamn would probably be better at dealing with novel religious artifacts though
Probably the best one yeah, though it is only of middling use.
Good call yeah
Don't need 'em
Could be replaced by most magisters of any wind who have any range option
Max can't enchant, we asked about learning it with him and boney implied that if he could do it he would have learned to already
True and also quite interesting to me
So all in all 3 turns+maybe more if he's interested in language learning
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My main concern with tenure remains this:
In general, there's two main reasons to study artifacts:
- Research for its own sake, to develop Mathilde's knowledge base and capabilities.
- To write papers and books, to improve Mathilde's College rep and accrue CF.
Getting rid of CF makes that second line moot, meaning we have that much less of an incentive and motivation to acquire artifacts and pursue those kinds of research, and in turn we have that much less incentive to write papers and books.
In general, there's two main reasons to study artifacts:
- Research for its own sake, to develop Mathilde's knowledge base and capabilities.
- To write papers and books, to improve Mathilde's College rep and accrue CF.
Getting rid of CF makes that second line moot, meaning we have that much less of an incentive and motivation to acquire artifacts and pursue those kinds of research, and in turn we have that much less incentive to write papers and books.
It was 5 DF per AP spent on studying it, which I feel is a very cheap price given how much DF we had.
Boney? What happens to tributaries, like Belthani tributaries, if the waystone they feed into gets disconnected or broken? Do they stop working?
I think it'd be a good idea to make more tributary variants. As it stands, the current tributaries all have some limitations. Having more variants would make it easier to spread across the continent. And spreading totally not daemonology seems fun!
Teclisean tributaries involve apparitions, which Max doesn't have experience with. So he would definitely need someone else. Mathilde and Johann know how to wrangle apparitions. Hatalath should know how and Sarvoi probably does.
I think it'd be a good idea to make more tributary variants. As it stands, the current tributaries all have some limitations. Having more variants would make it easier to spread across the continent. And spreading totally not daemonology seems fun!
They'd generally reach an equilibrium where the surrounding area is moderately more magical than is normal for the area. What effect that has depends on the sort of magic that is most common in the area.
SaltyWaffles
I am dissapoint, son
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As much as I think the airship would be cool, I'm really worried we'll struggle to find an effective use for it more than once in a blue moon if that. We already have a gyrocarriage we can enchant to extend its range and improve its comfort, and a gyrocarriage is undoubtedly much faster than an airship.
A lot of our goals involve battles fought in dense forests, where an airship would be of little value. If we did our next arc in Kislev, it might get used, but how much fighting would we need to do in a country not at war?
Likewise, the elfcation would not allow for our airship to be there because they don't have a token for every crewmember to allow them to be outside of Lothern (assuming a flying warship would even be eligible at all).
So what would we use it for? If our foreseeable battles wouldn't be taking place in dense forests, I could definitely see the utility, but they do, so then what?
A lot of our goals involve battles fought in dense forests, where an airship would be of little value. If we did our next arc in Kislev, it might get used, but how much fighting would we need to do in a country not at war?
Likewise, the elfcation would not allow for our airship to be there because they don't have a token for every crewmember to allow them to be outside of Lothern (assuming a flying warship would even be eligible at all).
So what would we use it for? If our foreseeable battles wouldn't be taking place in dense forests, I could definitely see the utility, but they do, so then what?
Even in dense forests, I can think of a couple of points off the top of my head! The logistical angle alone would be a huge boon - you can't take supply wagons through deep woods, after all! Could potentially massively extend the operational reach of any given march through the forest.
On a tactical level, magical support is arguably less dependent on terrain and visibility than conventional missiles, but possibly as impactful would be the potential to carry and insert a team of elites close to or behind an enemy position, potentially undetected depending on the magical outfitting of the ship.
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I don't think studying the vampire skulls are an explicit Article violation (I'd be very surprised if the witch hunters and Amethysts don't already do something similar), but I do see the need to be cautious with them.
I meant that he can create things that are suitable for enchanting, not actually enchant them himself. A goldforged blade would probably be a high quality enchanting material and very receptive to holding an enchantment, on top of just being a really good sword.
Do you have a source for this? This is the first I've heard of Teclisian tributaries needing apparitions. I know there was some talk a while back about using apparitions to guard tributaries and waystones, but not anything about them being used in the actual thing.
How often are we going to do something like that though? In the future, the most battles I see taking place in deep forest are going to be places we'll need to hold. Like, say, the Blood Fane. There isn't much purpose in killing the defender if we can't bring enough soldiers to defend it. In that case there's no point, you might as well just clear cut a route through to it, because you're going to need to do that to build a castle there to defend it.
I doubt it'd be undetected or uncontested. Most forces that it'd be worth it to use the ship would have mages of their own. Most would also probably have air assets.
I included the source in the comment. Belthani tributaries need an external magical helpers to work, like gods, spirits, or dreaming woods. Boney said the only Teclisean method Mathilde could think of involved apparitions.
If we're talking about a large force with pioneering capabilities - which, to be fair, you're right that we should expect, given the dwarves - then maintaining food, ammunition and the like would be less of an issue, I agree. That said, that doesn't mean the ship won't have any logistical utility during such a campaign. The pioneering itself comes to mind - being able to deliver a team of combat engineers, elite troops to guard them and all the relevant supplies to the planned location of a marching camp or river/marsh crossing, for example, would help to eliminate some of the delays and risks of performing that kind of work and smooth and hasten the operation as a whole.
Better, then, to have a big air asset of our own to spot them coming above the trees and then to contest them when they arrive!
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It's not even dwarves. The most likely forces we would be leading into battle are Imperial ones in reclaiming the Blood Fane, the Brass Keep, and Melkhior's Tower. I'm skeptical it would save much time. Marching speed on normal terrain is fifteen miles a day. It'd be far less when you are clear cutting. Having to clear cut means that percentage wise, you won't really get much savings. And how often are we going to lead armies?
The Empire has air assets though. I don't see why that means Mathilde needs one.
Sure! The intent isn't to speed up the marching column's actual marching pace, which a flying ship can't really do unless it's carrying the entire column and all of its supplies itself; it's to improve its overall operational speed. In the specific hypothetical offered, this would be achieved by reducing or eliminating the friction and danger resulting from needing to establish positions ahead of the marching column, which are both much greater if the force tasked with doing so needs to cross broken and hostile ground ahead of time on foot, possibly with lots of supplies. Any number of things could go wrong over the course of that (from 'mule carrying construction materials hobbles themselves on a root or rabbit hole' to 'enemy ambush'), which would cause delays back down the line, so ensuring it could be done safely and quickly via airlift would be a major boon.
Don't know! Was replying specifically to the bit of SaltyWaffles' original post about campaigning; up to the thread to decide how important that becomes.
She probably doesn't; this seems to me very much a 'want' rather than a 'need' sort of vote! I do think it would be useful, interesting and enjoyable, though given the thrust of this conversation I fear that may not be your view; if it goes so far as to harm your enjoyment of things, then I can only apologise.
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Mathilde does not need anything from what's on the table. If that's the standard we're setting, the only reasonable vote would be to go "no thanks, did all this for Sheer Love Of The Game."
You don't understand my point. I did not say it would move the army. I said it wouldn't lead to significant time saving. That is because there is only so far ahead of the army itself you would want the advance forces to be. Far enough away from the main army, the enemies don't need to worry about said army. The hostiles would have a free hand to deal with the engineers. There's only so many forces the ship can bring and how elite they can be. Essentially, the speed, or rather lack thereof, of the main army will severely curtail the advantages you are advertising it as having.
I understand wanting something cool, but how cool can it be if it only shows up once in a blue moon? What is enjoyable about a ferry? Like the concept is cool, but you haven't answered what Mathilde would do with it. Mathilde has a lab. She has a gyrocopter.
No one is saying that, that is a strawman. I'm asking how it fits Mathilde and the quest. And like... eh. I have no idea.
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Ah, I see - thank you for clarifying! I don't think that really changes a great deal about the proposed use-case, though - avoiding much of the friction involved with setting up positions for an army to use over the course of a march would increase the army's speed overall by reducing delays (or worse) caused by that friction, even if those positions were only a short distance ahead of the main column. Traversing broken ground is difficult and unpredictable, and allowing a vital element of a formation on which its forward progress depends to do as little of it as possible would be very useful!
(That said, if in an extreme case there were an operational need to do some pioneering far, far ahead of the main force across broken ground, a magical flying warship would make it easier, if still not easy. The range and speed available to such a vessel would allow such an effort to be more operationally unpredictable than otherwise possible, which would hamper an enemy's ability to bring force to bear against it, and its presence would be helpful as security against less powerful opportunistic attacks or as a means of retreat if worst came to worst.)
I mean, I'm the kind of weird that likes speculating about operational capabilities in pre-modern fantasy worlds, so you can probably tell with regard to the specific topic of conversation! (Thank you for the opportunity!)
In a more general sense, though... I think there's a compelling case that this is a gateway to the world. Sure, it probably wouldn't be done in time for Nagarythe, even leaving the legal difficulties aside, but, unbound from the question of taking on fuel and water for the steam engine that would likely hamper the gyrocopter over, say, the Dark Lands, there are so many other places that Mathilde could go - and with more or less as many people and things as she wanted with her!
So, for example - I've wondered before whether the Cathayans might at some point get curious about why their silk trade's drying up and send a delegation to investigate. Imagine if, in response, Mathilde could bring them back in her personal skyship, along with Eike, everyone from WEB-MAT, an army of scribes for book copying, Kazrik and Edda as ambassadors for K8P, a bunch of diplomatic gifts and treasures and perhaps Pan and Sofia if the former feels satisfied enough with their work on the valley to take a holiday. Maybe Dragomas too, if he wants to see that part of the world again. That's the kind of thing that's possible with this!
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deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
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Boney doesn't want to write about going to Cathay or Ind and such though because of the immense amount of world building work from scratch that would have to be done.
Huh - I was under the impression that the moratorium on Cathay had been lifted as a result of materials being released in the wake of TW:W3... May be wrong! It's an illustrative example, regardless.
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It minimizes the benefit to practically nothing in a forest. There's comparatively less danger in open fields, where you can see all around. But in forests? Good luck. That's beastman territory, or goblin territory, or tree-demon territory, and you get the point. Airpower isn't sufficient to protect workers on the ground. The trees would make it too difficult to spot and leverage the ship's firepower. You're going to need boots on the ground for that. You'll need scouts to maintain perimeters. Every fighter you bring will slow down work all the more, minimizing any actual benefit it would bring. How many people is a medium-sized force supposed to be anyways?
No, that is exceedingly unlikely. Boney has expressed a willingness to world build for Cathay if the thread votes for it in the past. The most recent comment about it (in the museum thread) said that going there is 'off the table.' Boney might still be willing to make Cathay if Divided Loyalties votes to go there. That and proposes something interesting enough to make him willing to do it. But I'm pretty sure that you can bet that Boney won't extend an offer like you are proposing. It would be only Cathay on the table, if it is even an option. Ind, Khuresh, ect have even less for Boney to work off of. Which means Boney would have to do even more work comparatively.
I am skeptical that Cathay would be willing to share much either. They're ancient China, but even more arrogant and isolationist because dragons.
Cathay is the absolutely beyond a shadow of a doubt the best chance of anything even remotely similar to what you propose happening. And it still has a snowball's chance in hell of happening.
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It might be easier to go to Cathay if the rumoured Old World: Cathay army book is any good, but seeing as it hasn't been officially announced (as far as I am aware) and there's at least two more factions in the pipeline before them, it'll be a while before we can see it.
SaltyWaffles
I am dissapoint, son
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@Boney : I forget, can Ithilmar armor--enchanted or not--stack with Aethyric Armor? If not, could Mathilde cast AA and get her Indefatigable effect even if the magic doesn't provide protection?
You mentioned in the past that getting Runesmiths to enchant ithilmar armor would be "an adventure" or something along those lines--can you elaborate on that?
Lastly, how much additional protection does the Armor of Von Tarnus provide to AA?
You mentioned in the past that getting Runesmiths to enchant ithilmar armor would be "an adventure" or something along those lines--can you elaborate on that?
Lastly, how much additional protection does the Armor of Von Tarnus provide to AA?
These two have been answered so, if you will take my word with no quotes (it's very ate for me right now):
- It can be enchanted with AA, but doesn't stack
- We would need information from hill dwarf settlements which worked with elves, rune recovery probably with Thorek
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Ithilmar armor can be enchanted, but Aethyric Armour the spell is incompatible with actual armour, as per its spellbook entry. The one known exception to that is the Armour of Von Tarnus because his branding as a wizard in heavy armour overrides that. I think it's theoretically possible to get a set of ithilmar armour to stack, but first we'd have to find the second coming of Von Tarnus with the right paradigm and enchanting skills.
I would not hold high hopes for getting Dwarfs to rune ithilmar. Here's a bunch of answers Boney's given over time on that subject:
Armour of Von Tarnus + AA stacking:
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