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A Different Breed (Warhammer 29K)

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You know it have been two decades since Fall and we have few billion strong population for statistical data.

So with Nurgles Curse just what is Eldar current population growth?

And do our Seers have any idea how much work on his Curse could shield us from it boost that growth?
 
012345 said:
You know it have been two decades since Fall and we have few billion strong population for statistical data.

So with Nurgles Curse just what is Eldar current population growth?

And do our Seers have any idea how much work on his Curse could shield us from it boost that growth?
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That information will probably be gathered by our Hall of Stewards once we put all the records into it and properly staff it.
 
012345 said:
So with Nurgles Curse just what is Eldar current population growth?

And do our Seers have any idea how much work on his Curse could shield us from it boost that growth?
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In canon craftworlds have slightly above replament rate, not including wsr casulties.

And we have no idea, it is part of our main research questline
 
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Alratan said:
Are we here to make sure that Biel Tan is punished for future-crime and because we hate that the threat of them made us feel so vulnerable that we want to damage them as much as we can?
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To be clear, my priority for Biel-Tan is punishing them for the crimes they already did, ie drafting Exodites against their will and mugging smaller Craftworlds for their relics, for which we only know for certain about the ones that survived said mugging and the resultant vulnerability to other threats.
Alratan said:
Or are we here to do our best to ensure that the Eldar overcome the Curses as best they can and recover as much of their lost power and freedom as is possible?
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That is also a significant priority.
Alratan said:
Those two goals are probably in conflict.
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They're really not. Biel Tan has actively sabotaged the survival of the species for personal gain and delusional hubris in regards to their own ability to save the rest of us through the power of slavery and murder. Letting them off with a slap on the wrist and some minor sanctions sets a dangerous precedent, and doesn't actually prevent them from pulling shit like this again in the future the moment someone shows weakness or they think they can get away with it.
Profilozof said:
What we shouldn't do is punish them too severely, so the drukhari now will have major craftworld on their side, black arcs from fantasy style.
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Star said:
So at least in my opinion while Biel-Tani shouldn't be main problem at the summit they need to be addressed and punished (not to hard, maybe reparations and return of things they stole).
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I think these are honestly some pretty naïve takes. There is no amount of punishment for Biel-Tan small enough that they won't plot and scheme for vengeance. Our three real options, as I see it are as follows:
  1. Don't punish them at all, keeping them penned in with soft power moves and a watchful eye. This is definitely not going to happen due to all the parties involved.
  2. Punish them enough that the other Major Craftworlds consistently stay ahead of them and can smack them if they start doing anything too stupid. This relies on nothing ever crippling their watchers like what happened to canon Iyanden and BT never managing to sneak past them.
  3. Whole hog. Biel-Tan has, for all intents and purposes, committed high treason against the Eldar Species and the remnants of the Dominion. When you're on a ship adrift at sea, theft of resources is punishable by death, and the only reason I don't advocate for that is because we don't have sufficient Spirit Stones to waste keeping them out of the stomach of She Who Thirsts. Establish a vote of no confidence to allow the Harlequins to act without breaking their neutrality and have them and strike forces from the other Major Craftworlds do a (preferably non-lethal, but they should all have Spirit Stones anyway) decapitation strike on their leadership, before putting the rest to trial and giving the Craftworld itself to those Eldar whose Craftworlds they've crippled or otherwise left unviable/defenseless. This sets a hard precedent that this kind of fuckery Will Not Be Tolerated and eliminates Biel-Tan as a future threat entirely. There's obviously a risk on the initial operation, but this is frankly the least risky time to pull a move like this, especially since we can almost certainly capture the Autarch and his aides here and now. There will be no more Kinslaying. The Great Crafts of the Old Dominion will not be subverted to the will of a petty warlord. We shall honor the Last Hour by once more preventing the War of the Aeldari from being turned against itself, even if it means shattering it.
 
3 isn't going to happen, even if we could get the mandate to do it, Biel-Tan is probably strong enough to have an appreciable chance of taking on the entire diaspora and--if not winning--at least making it a pyrrhic victory on our part that sets us up for extinction. They specced for early game military rush, which means they're probably the most well prepared to fight and win a battle for supremacy if push comes to shove.

2 is reasonably likely though if things go over well.
 
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Updating vote.
[X]Plan Paths, Partners, and Lifeboats
-[X]Firelord Erenesh, to put out feelers among the the Asuryanis, and to convey a polite apology to the Autarch if he will have it.
-[X]Kher-Ys, to compare notes. Our Forge of Vaul might be of interest here, if nothing else to make the necessary tooling.
-[X]Durran Fellwinter, on the possibility of leaving an escape hatch for Iyanden when he accuses Biel-Tan--we're planning on rapid industrial expansion in the coming decades and we may be able to make time for a reasonably generous inducement to ditch Biel-Tan in favor of one of the other factions.

[X] Plan: To Create and Exploit Opportunities v.2, The Independents - And set up communication

After some thought, I believe that informing Iyanden without coordinating with Saim-Hann is a mistake, and is likely to cost us. If Iyanden hears us out, and decides to defend Biel-Tan anyway, they'll have the whole of the third day to put together a defense if/when the issue comes up. Fellwinter's j'accuse would end up blunted by a prepared defense, and he'll be rightly pissed when he finds out that they had time to prepare because we talked to Iyanden without telling him.
 
Alectai said:
3 isn't gong to happen, even if we could get the mandate to do it, Biel-Tan is probably strong enough to have an appreciable chance of taking on the entire diaspora and--if not winning--at least making it a pyrrhic victory on our part that sets us up for extinction. They specced for early game military rush, which means they're probably the most well prepared to fight and win a battle for supremacy if push comes to shove.

2 is reasonably likely though if things go over well.
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Basically this. Biel-Tan wont win against the whole of the disapora, but they will make us pay in blood for every step we take against them. Not sure exaclty how we want to handle this, and we are probably not going to get the loot back from them without a fight. Maybe. It depends on how politically aware their leadership is.
 
In a perfect white room, I don't think that BT could take on the entire diaspora, but 1-vs-4+friends cornered rat fight is liable to to end up looking exceedingly ugly.

Besides, getting diaspora to commit to actually annihilating BT is going to be effectively impossible. The price of this venture is obvious, nobody gonna want that fight.
 
Alectai said:
3 isn't gong to happen, even if we could get the mandate to do it, Biel-Tan is probably strong enough to have an appreciable chance of taking on the entire diaspora and--if not winning--at least making it a pyrrhic victory on our part that sets us up for extinction. They specced for early game military rush, which means they're probably the most well prepared to fight and win a battle for supremacy if push comes to shove.

2 is reasonably likely though if things go over well.
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3. Against 1 major craftworld maybe 2-3, yeah no.
Far less likely that they can fight that, add in all the smaller ones and even the exodites that are pissed, and they get overrun.
 
What we probably want to do is figure out what we *really* want back from them, because they will probably relinquish *some* treasure in exchange for leniency, and for those for whom we cannot make whole, we can step in to fill that void and thus establish some relationships with those craftworlds and potentially draw them into our orbit. Metaphorically speaking.
 
Professor Vesca said:
What we probably want to do is figure out what we *really* want back from them, because they will probably relinquish *some* treasure in exchange for leniency, and for those for whom we cannot make whole, we can step in to fill that void and thus establish some relationships with those craftworlds and potentially draw them into our orbit. Metaphorically speaking.
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Depends how bullish they get over it. Certainly, we don't warrant any treasure since we weren't actually attacked and they might argue "FALSE VIEWING!", but the fact they got caught red-handed and put on the spot is not great.

Basically, I'll be happy with "Biel-Tan having to make good their fuckfuck games and kept busy for the next few centuries" as an outcome here. I'm confident that given a few centuries, we'd be able to stand against them as long as they don't get rubber-banded or just decide to go "Fuck y'all we're going Drukhari" If they dumpstatted all of their personal long term growth options because they were counting on plunder to make up the difference, then stopping that means they're going to have a hard time advancing.

EDIT: @Mechanis , when you get a chance--a question. Is it possible to--over time--improve our Craftworld to the point where it qualifies for a higher tier? At least hypothetically? Or are we forever maxed out at Large sized and will never match one of the Majors no matter how well we play?
 
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Professor Vesca said:
What we probably want to do is figure out what we *really* want back from them, because they will probably relinquish *some* treasure in exchange for leniency, and for those for whom we cannot make whole, we can step in to fill that void and thus establish some relationships with those craftworlds and potentially draw them into our orbit. Metaphorically speaking.
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"We" as in Vau-Vaulkesh aren't going to get anything directly from them.

And the stick of war against them isn't going to have much bite, since they have a massively oversized military, such that while they'd still lose if the rest of the diaspora jumped them, it would be a phyrric victory at best, and they know it.

So that leaves the carrot - we want to set up significant technology and resource trading amongst the various craftworlds, with the tacit understanding that if we see signs of Biel-Tan doing that kind of fuckery again, we (and everyone else in the trade agreement) are cutting them off.

If we make it clear that being murderous dickbaskets is likely to reduce Biel-Tan's capabilities in the long run instead of increasing them, then they're a lot less likely to do that shit out of pure self-interest.
 
Professor Vesca said:
...we can step in to fill that void and thus establish some relationships with those craftworlds and potentially draw them into our orbit. Metaphorically speaking.
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Define "we", actually. Vau-Vulk's direct military capability is insufficient to clear its neighborhood of orcs, nvm providing security services for however many craftworlds suffered from BT's shit. We'll need to be a part of coalition to solve tasks like these.
 
Alectai said:
Depends how bullish they get over it. Certainly, we don't warrant any treasure since we weren't actually attacked and they might argue "FALSE VIEWING!", but the fact they got caught red-handed and put on the spot is not great.

Basically, I'll be happy with "Biel-Tan having to make good their fuckfuck games and kept busy for the next few centuries" as an outcome here. I'm confident that given a few centuries, we'd be able to stand against them as long as they don't get rubber-banded or just decide to go "Fuck y'all we're going Drukhari" If they dumpstatted all of their personal long term growth options because they were counting on plunder to make up the difference, then stopping that means they're going to have a hard time advancing.

EDIT: @Mechanis , when you get a chance--a question. Is it possible to--over time--improve our Craftworld to the point where it qualifies for a higher tier? At least hypothetically? Or are we forever maxed out at Large sized and will never match one of the Majors no matter how well we play?
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"Solve your population growth problem" is the primary requirement there, at least to a degree. Craftworlds generally have significantly less population than they can theoretically support, though Majors are generally closer to actually significant fractions of their theoretical capacity. Even a small Craftworld generally has an internal floor space well in excess of the total surface area of an Earth-sized planet, after all.
 
Redshirt Army said:
"We" as in Vau-Vaulkesh aren't going to get anything directly from them.

And the stick of war against them isn't going to have much bite, since they have a massively oversized military, such that while they'd still lose if the rest of the diaspora jumped them, it would be a phyrric victory at best, and they know it.

So that leaves the carrot - we want to set up significant technology and resource trading amongst the various craftworlds, with the tacit understanding that if we see signs of Biel-Tan doing that kind of fuckery again, we (and everyone else in the trade agreement) are cutting them off.

If we make it clear that being murderous dickbaskets is likely to reduce Biel-Tan's capabilities in the long run instead of increasing them, then they're a lot less likely to do that shit out of pure self-interest.
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That just sounds like rewarding Biel-Tan for their stupid behaviour.
If you chicken out punishing them for very clearly stepping over the line the first time they will just keep doing it.
 
Mechanis said:
"Solve your population growth problem" is the primary requirement there, at least to a degree. Craftworlds generally have significantly less population than they can theoretically support, though Majors are generally closer to actually significant fractions of their theoretical capacity. Even a small Craftworld generally has an internal floor space well in excess of the total surface area of an Earth-sized planet, after all.
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Huh, so reaching Major status is just a matter of time, effort, and playing our cards right, not a matter of needing to overhaul our entire Craftworld since our base chassis is already big enough?
 
The Froggy Ninja said:
Our three real options, as I see it are as follows
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The problem is I don't think we can practically swing it. As in even if through some miracle the vote happens and passes there would little anyone could actually do about Biel-Tan.
Ulthwe is outright out due to their position and problems. Iyanden won't be hitting Biel-Tan due to being their long term allies even if they abstain from giving them actual help. So you are left with Alaitoc and Saim-Hann to do anything. And while Alaitoc most likely would support spanking of Biel-Tan politically I doubt they would move against them militarily short of Biel-Tan going the Drukhari route.

So it would be basically Saim-Hann and allies vs Biel-Tan and allies. At least until Ulthwe manages to get out of their current position.
 
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