I can see your point, but one of the big advantages we have is that we're very good at avoiding extended engagements. Our grav vehicles speed and flight means it's very easy for them to disengage after they suffer damage. This means that fragility is less of a problem for us than it would usually be.

I can see the reason to replace Pressure Resistant with Rugged though.

We are actually very good in extended engagement due to mass use of Holo-Fields and can have fight going on for a very long time if we want while our troops can "duck" out if needed due to the advanced stealth and just cycle our troops as needed (and reposition them).

Same goes for our ships, if they need a bit of time they should almost always be able to get it by stopping to fire for a bit and just going fully invis.

Edit.
This in part takes into account of our grav shields, the conversion fields just further improve on that.
 
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We are actually very good in extended engagement due to mass use of Holo-Fields and can have fight going on for a very long time if we want while our troops can "duck" out if needed due to the advanced stealth and just cycle our troops as needed (and reposition them).

Same goes for our ships, if they need a bit of time they should almost always be able to get it by stopping to fire for a bit and just going fully invis.

Edit.
This in part takes into account of our grav shields, the conversion fields just further improve on that.

It slightly depends on what we mean by extended engagements here. If we're including cycling troops under cover of our holo-fields, then whether we have rugged or not is less of an issue, as we can cycle vehicles back for their conversion shield units to be swapped out.

Partially this comes back to the question I keep asking.

What are our ground forces for?

Do we intend them to be used as Craftworld garrisons? To conquer strongly defended worlds? To conquer weakly defended worlds? To go a-viking looting the True Stars? To dive back into the Crone Worlds? Sudden assaults from or in the Webway to head-cap high value enemy targets? To board enemy ships? To act in concert with allied forces? To operate alone?

We need to decide these things before we design and build manufacturing facilities for equipment, as what we need will change radically depending on what we want from them.

For example, the light infantry focused setup the leading plan seems to be going for would be well suited for taking and holding weakly defended worlds, where you need a large number of soldiers to root out large numbers of not individually that strong enemies spread out across the world, on the assumption that we won't be fighting alongside our allies who already have very similar troops. Basically, it produces something very similar to our allies' basic Firewave troops. Similar weapons, similar armour, similar shields. Not identical, but with the same design concept. I mean, compare this:

CategoryUsThemComment
WeaponNeedler weapons fire spikes of impossibly sharp wraithbone extremely rapidly, thanks to multiple barrels allowing very high rates of fire. While they lack the advanced systems of the Fatecaster weapons from which they are derived, they are thusly far easier to manufacture—and the high fire rate does compensate somewhat for the loss in accuracy.Hellguns are Lasrifles which have been modified with an enhanced cooling system and large external power-pack to allow them to be fired nearly indefinitely at full-auto, sending pulsing sheets of lasbeams downrange that make them far more dangerous than typical lasguns—though considerably more expensive.Both very high rate of fire automatic rifles
ArmourWraithweave Brigantine is a type of light armor that incorporates thick Wraithbone-cloth armor reinforced with attacked plates of Wraithbone, over a sealed skinsuit with an advanced sensor package mounted to the helmet. This combines to make it a capable light armor, resistant to most small arms, though it is insufficient in the face of true heavy weapons or those with significant armor-piercing capability.
The standard model of armor used by the forces of Zahr-Tann, the Forgeguard Warsuit is a light power-assist armor with an integrated Autotargeting system. The vast majority of Zahr-Tann's troops are equipped with these suits.
Light armour, although there's is noticably better thanks to power assist and auto-tarteters
Shield
A Flare Shield is a form of Conversion field which trades overall durability for rapid regeneration and resistance to overload. Such shields might shatter after absorbing a single hit, but within seconds they flare back to life, ready to absorb another blow.
--[] Flaw: Slow On Attack
--[] Flaw: Bulky
--[] Advantage: Low Cost
--[] Advantage: Pressure Resistance
A similar mass produced conversion shield, if we slightly different properties.


I don't think that invading and occupying planets something we'll ever do. And if we did want to duplicate our allies' forces and strengths so closely, I think we should ask to literally copy their exact designs, not make slightly something different, as at least that way we'd be able to interoperate with them more easily

However. what do we want to design our forces to do? Do we want to do the same as Zahr-Tann, or something different.
 
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Y'know what?

I'm not having fun anymore, I'm getting irritated.

I'm sick of having to tab in and watch the thread devolve into a screaming match every time the chance to vote pops up, I'm sick of having to guess basic fucking mechanics and make estimates on something as simple as an armour foundry for our main infantry power armour, I signed up for a narrative quest since the number of Eldar empire/nation building quests can be counted on one hand and have fingers left over since everyone loves jerking off the Imperium.

I don't care about what colour t-shirt our soldiers are wearing, I don't care about synergy, or prices or bookkeeping or having to watch the 5th fucking screaming match this week and having to deal with people suddenly proclaiming that the choices that they made last turn were wrong and that we need to throw out EVERYTHING we ever did and start over because god forbid we don't become another carbon copy clone of a canon Eldar army! God forbid we have any kind of fun or uniqueness in a quest, huh?!

My mental health has been on the downturn ever since I took part in this quest no thanks in part to the constant arguments and shit flinging that the thread has been doing since turn one, it's utterly tiresome and I hate that this has taken up any amount of my time or energy and that this quest has been living rent free in my head for this long.

I admit, I'm part of the blame by slandering SH starlances, and that's part of the reason why I'm here now, typing this out, I'm not cut out for arguing on forums.

We are 31k words and 300 pages in, and a good 60% of that has been arguments like this, we can't even agree on basic infantry doctrine without having someone loudly proclaim that we screwed up and have to redesign the entire thing from the ground up.

At this point, I just want a narrative story dominated by the rule of cool, I want to see a cool, divergent offshoot of the Eldar punching daemons in the face while wearing power armour, I initially wanted psychomatons because they were cool and interesting and a relic ship at the start of the game so we could play this quest on easy mode as a chill, lighthearted adventure we could all take part in without having to argue what colour t-shirt our nameless, faceless mooks are wearing or having to worry about Orks curbstomping our pathetically sized navy despite knowing what that fleet size would mean.

Guess I shouldn't have expected anything like that from SV.

Mechanis, if you're reading this, good quest, cool concept art, fun story and lived in my head rent free for a month straight now, don't let my anger-rant dissuade you from engaging in this as a QM, but the discussions have soured my enjoyment and the OOC lack of knowledge leads to moments where folks argue around in circles for hours on end or make ill-informed decisions.

With that, I'm off, and may the brain fog lift from my shoulders by saying this and may I never have to invest this much energy or engagement into a quest again.
 
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I don't think we have existing construction lines sitting around. I think we're constructing new ones, as the options I quoted literally say we are.

We'll have to do refits, but that should be less expensive than building from scratch. And some things, like our base Bonesinger Hall we inherited from character creation, worked immediately after the Fall without needing refitting. Presumably there are more of those out there.
Then what did we spend those points on in Craftworld creation?
And I don't think finding more Forges of Vaul is impossible. There are a lot of dead worlds out there that were previously fully populated by Eldar.
I never said it was impossible, I just said it wasn't likely. Forces of Vaul probably weren't available at every corner shop, even during the height of the Aeldari Dominion.
I don't think even bound daemons are indefinitely stable in real space outside a Daemon World.
They don't need to be stable indefinitely. They just need to stick around for a few decades or more, which I think that's fairly reasonable.

Infantry isn't going to help us defeat the local orks. We're not going to be landing troops. What we need are more and better allied warships to defeat them in space and bombard them from orbit.
Any orbital bombardment thorough enough to wipe out the Orks would probably be enough to qualify as Exterminatus. Destroying a world's biosphere just because of the presence of Orks would be a terrible, Biel-Tan level, precedent to set. Worlds capable of supporting life are not so common as to justify destroying one because of an Ork infestation.
Because I don't think we should have PBI at all. We should have special forces, super-heavy assault troops for boarding ships or high intensity urban combat, artillery, and tanks. Let our allies fill that roll to the limited degree it's needed.
Thing is that redundancy is pretty darn important in a setting like 40k. If our allies get hit by a major crisis and need to reduce the forces they commit to helping us, we don't want major holes in our TO&E to develop.
 
You know I think this has been the most argumentative quest thread I've ever been on and I agree with BigFungus26 that all these declarations every turn that we've done something or everything wrong really take away from the fun.

This is an argument to print brigandine with the Forge while building VGW production, not vice versa.
Sorry I wrote that in the last few minutes of my break and wasn't meaning to weigh in on the forge issue but on the doom saying about how this is going to result in all of our forces using brigandine forever.

Though there is another potential use for the brigandine after we no longer need it and that is as a trade good as it should be pretty popular with less advanced polities we would just have to modify them to not need psychic controls and reshape them for a different physical build.

They don't need to be stable indefinitely. They just need to stick around for a few decades or more, which I think that's fairly reasonable.
It should be noted that there have been daemons in cannon that have been able to maintain themselves in the material world for centuries or even millennia.
 
Any orbital bombardment thorough enough to wipe out the Orks would probably be enough to qualify as Exterminatus. Destroying a world's biosphere just because of the presence of Orks would be a terrible, Biel-Tan level, precedent to set. Worlds capable of supporting life are not so common as to justify destroying one because of an Ork infestation.

Well for one from char creation:
[ ] Purge the Stars (6 points)
It is time and past time the Aeldari put this last remnant of the War in Heaven to rest. Burn these fungal weapons from the stars, wherever they may be found.
We very much want all the orks dead.

On orbital bombardment
Point of order, we're not doing any of that, because it's completely not needed; Orks don't want to Ortillery things because that takes all the fun out of it, Imperials don't either because they're typically fighting on their own planets and at least trying to limit the collateral damage--and they don't have the technology to do so accurately, Eldar don't because they are generally doing things where that kind of sledgehammer approach is counterproductive to their goals, Dark Eldar don't for essentially the same reason, Nids don't because that makes it harder to eat everything, Tau don't because they actually care about optics/PR, Necrons don't because that's a cultural no-no and the sane ones cling to their culture rabidly (and the insane ones are, well, insane,) even Chaos forces generally don't, though reasons may vary.
So you don't need any more reason than "most of the time, people just don't use orbital strikes (even if they have the capability) because they aren't going to actually help/are too costly in collateral damage/are just not the right tool for the job/they just don't want to."

Never invent a complicated explaination that relies on everything having massive background equipment when a simple one that relies on the faction's culture will do!

I mostly have to ask why should we spend eldar lives on non-maiden worlds that we pretty much don't care about.
Orbital bombardment makes very much sense to us.
 
I mean.

The point was "You can't just orbital bombard your problems away, it's easier to just say that it's not an option because it doesn't play well with everyone's agenda than to say that everyone has secret unspoken technology that makes it impossible." At most, you usually find that surgical strikes of singular bombardments to achieve a tactical objective, but full out "Nuke 'it 'till it glows" level responses are an anomaly, not the norm.
 
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Then what did we spend those points on in Craftworld creation?

I never said it was impossible, I just said it wasn't likely. Forces of Vaul probably weren't available at every corner shop, even during the height of the Aeldari Dominion.

They don't need to be stable indefinitely. They just need to stick around for a few decades or more, which I think that's fairly reasonable.


Any orbital bombardment thorough enough to wipe out the Orks would probably be enough to qualify as Exterminatus. Destroying a world's biosphere just because of the presence of Orks would be a terrible, Biel-Tan level, precedent to set. Worlds capable of supporting life are not so common as to justify destroying one because of an Ork infestation.

Thing is that redundancy is pretty darn important in a setting like 40k. If our allies get hit by a major crisis and need to reduce the forces they commit to helping us, we don't want major holes in our TO&E to develop.

We spent points in Craftworld creation to start with 15 Bonesinger Action Points rather than fewer, and not having to build a Bonesigner Hall from scratch without having a clue as to what we were doing, and to have multiple exotic action foundries, and having a Forge of Vaul, and having Seeker AP, etc.

In terms of Forges of Vaul. Our leaders were high priests of Vaul. They should really know which of the True Stars had important industrial facilities like his Forges. We wouldn't be looking randomly. We'd be targeting systems that we already knew they were present. Even if there were only a few we can go after those, and it's important to go soon, before anyone else can get there.

Neither we nor anyone else has any problem Exterminatusing ork worlds. Many Eldar have a problem using quasi-sacred terraforming technology to do so, but it's the method they object to, not the result.

On redundancy. At some point we might want to invest in this. However, that moment is not now, when the opportunity cost is so high. If we try to be strong everywhere we'll be weak nowhere, and masses of light infantry are a particularly poor area for Eldar to try to be strong in.
In terms of daemons, I think the usual length of time that daemons can persist in real space without being on a daemon world or a constant flow of sacrifices tend to be measured in days or weeks not years, although being 40K, there are almost certainly exceptions.
 
but on the doom saying about how this is going to result in all of our forces using brigandine forever.
Oh, it won't. In the long term we're going to want to scale up lots, and I'm not one of the people pushing to replace brigandine as our vehicle crew armor. We'd probably want brigandine production eventually, so the only real difference is that we're going to be short a VGW line for a while, which is annoying but not actually, like, important.
 
In terms of orbital bombardment, I would like to cite:

Danger Rating: None (Formerly EXTREMIS)
The furthest south of Waaagh Grimtusk's conquests, Zogdakka served primarily as a recruiting ground for Flash Gitz and Shoota Boyz, and the orks in the system were largely obsessed with "da Kult ov Dakka" and were unusually obsessed with "da shooty gunz". Arach-qin's fleets and warhosts scoured the system of Orkish life, despite the costs to their fleet to do so, and it will likely be centuries before Orks return to the system—if they ever do.

Black Toof Dager Rating: None (Formerly Moderate)
A frontier settlement populated by an eclectic mix of Oddboyz and feral ork tribes, this world was loosely aligned with Waaagh Grimtusk as the largest and most powerful ork horde in the region. If any of its inhabitants still lived, they might have regretted that decision, as the grand fleets of Arach-Qin made Black Toof the first stop in their rampage, simply bombarding the planet from orbit until not even Orks could survive on its surface.

Geargitz `Ere Danger Rating: None (formerly Very High)
This world supplied Waaagh Grimtusk with a significant portion of its Meks and their creations, but the planet has been scoured clean by the vengeful warhosts of Arach-Qin, who traced the Rok which destroyed their shipyards to the system. It will likely be centuries, if ever, before the greenskins return to this world.

We and our allies are more than capable of scouring worlds of orks from orbit, and our allies have very recently done so with relish in the immediate aftermath of the Fall.

We do not need to build armies capable of conquering ork worlds. We have a navy for that.
 
Oh, it won't. In the long term we're going to want to scale up lots, and I'm not one of the people pushing to replace brigandine as our vehicle crew armor. We'd probably want brigandine production eventually, so the only real difference is that we're going to be short a VGW line for a while, which is annoying but not actually, like, important.

I think people are mostly disagreeing on when we are ditching it, when the full army redesign happens and what we want to have done before that / what kind of gear we do want for it.

No if about that happening because what we have now is frankly said a mess (the militia units).

Add in the doctrine not being set and the logistic being one big fat ??? and you have a recipe for strong disagreements, more so considering how much of this quest is the design of the army/navy.

I personally see the entire redesign as happening pretty soonish in 3-4 turns after we grabbed the last few techs and made adjustments to the armors (because doing that before the redesign makes the most sense). Its in part why i want the conversion shield that integrates well into armor, vehicles and ships.
 
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If we do end up eventually ditching it - and I'm not sure we will, raising vehicle crew armor over 2 EP is going to have massively diminishing returns - we can refit the industry. We're not going to run out of uses for brigandine anytime soon.

If we get the chance to, I think we may want to trade for a copy of the schematics for Zahr-Tann's Forgeguard armour, and assign that to our vehicle crews, to standardise some equipment with them. Depending on their manufacturing capacity, we may want to see if we can simply buy all the vehicle crew armour we need from their production lines, rather than tooling up to produce it ourselves.

They think it's worth equipping vehicle crew with semi-powered armour, and it's possible they have a good reason for it.
 
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If we do end up eventually ditching it - and I'm not sure we will, raising vehicle crew armor over 2 EP is going to have massively diminishing returns - we can refit the industry. We're not going to run out of uses for brigandine anytime soon.

What stuff the armor has integrated going by Zahr-Tann actually effects (meaningfully) their job.
They are also giving their vehicle operators pretty good gear (also for a reason) and i trust their design there.

Edit.
As an example, I think It's pretty easy to get a light power armor designed for vehicle use that cost like 2-3 EP while giving them pretty good benefits for use inside the vehicle while also making it much more like to survive if they have to leave it.
 
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I think we may want to trade for a copy of the schematics for Zahr-Tann's Forgeguard armour
Plausible.

Until we do, though, we've been designing vehicles with control setups designed for use by people not wearing power armor, so the changeover isn't going to be quick and easy - we can worry about it when the option to trade turns up.

As an example, i think its pretty easy to get a light power armor designed for vehicle use that cost like 2-3 EP?
I think that describes Zahr-Tann's Forgeguard, yes.
 
Plausible.

Until we do, though, we've been designing vehicles with control setups designed for use by people not wearing power armor, so the changeover isn't going to be quick and easy - we can worry about it when the option to trade turns up.

...
This runs back into the big problem of when are we doing the army redesign.
Are we going to rush it and half ass it to just get something out that is likely going to cause a logistics mess.

Or are we going to take things slower, include stuff like full armor design now knowing and having more information (including the logistics situation) and fine tune it so that we don't have update things with retrofits for a "long" time.

Edit:
It also includes considerations such as are "basic" retrofits enough to buy us the time to get there or do we have to create updated detachments and "crash" build them so we get more soldiers into the field faster even if that causes more pain long term.
 
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Plausible.

Until we do, though, we've been designing vehicles with control setups designed for use by people not wearing power armor, so the changeover isn't going to be quick and easy - we can worry about it when the option to trade turns up.

The thing is, with our allies' war hosts available we probably have the time and space to focus on other things and table any decisions impacted by the question of whether we'll want to do this.

We're no longer under the cosh of possibly being invaded by Biel Tan any coming turn and having a craftworld that was virtually undefended against anyone that could get past our fleet, so it's important to be able to throw together gear we can hand out to a civilian militia.

We can take a deep breath and take the time to do this properly without having to rush. We can invest a bit more in seeker and bonesinger research so we have a decently wide range of choices available to us, and we can explore how the options of the Steward and Warrior categories change after we build some more of their basic infrastructure.

This is still important, but it's no longer urgent. We can take the time to do it properly when we understand the trade offs.
 
Or are we going to take things slower, include stuff like full armor design now knowing and having more information (including the logistics situation) and fine tune it so that we don't have update things with retrofits for a "long" time.
I'd vote for taking things slower. We've hopefully averted Biel-Tan's attack, and once Meros is out our most likely combat in the near future is scavenging raids and maybe the occasional attack on lightly defended Ork forces.

We can go though the basic rationalizations and come back later.

That's not a reason to not build any production lines until then, though. Not when we know they can be refitted.
 
[X] Plan: The Aeldmoot

Giving my vote to the "base" plan. Because right now it seems to be the one that I like the most. Industry is danm important, don't get me wrong (hell, look at other quests I'm in). But having the engines doesn't just let us escape. It also means we can save the isharii quicker. It also means we can send our craft world to pick up any eldar who's craft worlds are failing beyond our ability to help.

Mobility is important. Even beyond escaping.

That said. I do also like industry...
 
The fights over plans are really emotional (I was admittedly contributing to that). I think major factors here, apart from obvious, people just being too emotional are:
- we're really wrong time after time, often unknowingly. E.g. we made star anvils last turn to not equip it this turn - but we didn't know BT won't one this urn but Zahr-Tann will. Or this battlecasting squad we're making for the last three turns with priceless seer AP. That leads to vindictive streak where it's not really entirely founded.
- the quest has super crunchy parts together with nebulous fluff, which leads to arguments both about math and fluff at the same time as we're left comparing imaginary apples to hinted oranges by necessity
- not all questions we ask to qm are answered and when they do it's sometimes with "you're stupid to ask that" vibe, which leads to "let's ask qm" being a non preferred way of dispute resolution and people just slugging it out in thread
 
Just a thought, but is it really worth doing the Grav-Gun Hybridization rather than the Meson Blasters, given that this leaves four Seeker AP on the table?

Giving my vote to the "base" plan. Because right now it seems to be the one that I like the most. Industry is danm important, don't get me wrong (hell, look at other quests I'm in). But having the engines doesn't just let us escape. It also means we can save the isharii quicker. It also means we can send our craft world to pick up any eldar who's craft worlds are failing beyond our ability to help.

Mobility is important. Even beyond escaping.

That said. I do also like industry...

The Aeldmoot plan doesn't repair the engines... It:

-[][BONESINGER] Weapon Forge (Needle Rifle) (2 AP)
-[][BONESINGER] Armor Forge (Wraithweave Brigantine) (2 AP)
-[][BONESINGER] Hall of Stewardship (2 AP)
--[][FORGE] Use the Forge (One Turn Clear)
-[][BONESINGER] Shrine of Khane (3 AP)
--[][FORGE] Use the Forge (One Turn Clear)
-[][BONESINGER] Continue Ship Repair (1 AP)
-[][BONESINGER] Bring in the second batch of Quilan's fleet (2 AP)

The main two plans are mainly different Bonesinger wise in whether to build light infantry gear foundries or power armour foundries, and my plan lingering far behind in third place instead repairs an allies' shipyards to hopefully give us better rep at the Aeldmoot and to strengthen our coalition's navy.
 
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Giving my vote to the "base" plan. Because right now it seems to be the one that I like the most. Industry is danm important, don't get me wrong (hell, look at other quests I'm in). But having the engines doesn't just let us escape. It also means we can save the isharii quicker. It also means we can send our craft world to pick up any eldar who's craft worlds are failing beyond our ability to help.

… the only difference is what 2 sets of foundries are build in the BAP action.
Neither goes for the engine here.
for the base plan
-[][BONESINGER] Weapon Forge (Needle Rifle) (2 AP)
-[][BONESINGER] Armor Forge (Wraithweave Brigantine) (2 AP)
vs on the industry side
-[][BONESINGER] Armor Foundry (Write-in type) (2 points each) x2
--[][BONESINGER] 1 VGA, 1 Ithilmar

I'd vote for taking things slower. We've hopefully averted Biel-Tan's attack, and once Meros is out our most likely combat in the near future is scavenging raids and maybe the occasional attack on lightly defended Ork forces.

We can go though the basic rationalizations and come back later.

That's not a reason to not build any production lines until then, though. Not when we know they can be refitted.
Yeah, i am to hoping to do it the slow way.
I build the foundries pretty much for information how mass producible the armors are and get some gear for the retrofits.

The thing that gets to me at the moment is the conversion field vote, because that is at odds with doing it slowly (at least in my eye).

Hey @Alectai any chance of a last minute compromise on the plan with me giving up the BAP section but swapping in the conversion part from my plan ?
 
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