- Location
- Germany
The Rifles hit nearly as hard as a lascannon and have a stupid high firerate + likely a good bit more range.
Carbines are ok if you rush the enemy but less good if you want distance.
A Different Breed (Warhammer 29K)
The Rifles hit nearly as hard as a lascannon and have a stupid high firerate + likely a good bit more range.
Carbines are ok if you rush the enemy but less good if you want distance.
And we generally want distance, especially versus vehicles that might be mounting heavy flamers. Right.
I'd certainly support a Starblaster Rifle factory, then. Editing my plan, not really happy about the spike carbines in the first place.
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- Location
- Utrecht
We know that the Carbine is light enough to be fired from the hip/at a run.
The Rifle probably has higher range and possibly a bigger power pack
In terms of RoF and power, they are described in the same way.
- Location
- United Kingdom
I don't mean literally following. If they know we're not from Meros and start looking for where our ships came from, there's a chance they could find our Craftworld.
I'm not even saying it's likely that will happen, but the chance existing means I very much don't want to leave ourselves without at least half of Zahr-Tan's fleet until we've unfucked our own fleet some more. And considering we've already been told that the current contribution to Meros is adequate, just sending a Heavy Fleet on top of the War Ketches will be more than enough for them.
Apologies. You're right, that option is much less bad.
I still think it's premature; and that at most we should build one foundry for starblaster carbines or rifles if we're desperate to know how it works, as they'll, as you say, always be useful.
Generally though, I just think it's premature to make foundries, as they're likely to make very low volumes of stuff and the other production facilities we can invest BAP are likely to make much more and much more important gear.
Fundamentally, with Biel Tan cockblocked, Meros safe after this turn, and a massive infantry heavy allied army visiting and willing to be deployed, we don't have much use for infantry.
We do, however, live in a rough neighbourhood that could do with cleaning up. Strengthening our coalition's naval infrastructure seems like it should be a much higher priority, as I think we'll have much more use for a stronger allied navy than having a few more squads worth of infantry weapons, however that infantry is equipped.
Infantry isn't going to help us defeat the local orks. We're not going to be landing troops. What we need are more and better allied warships to defeat them in space and bombard them from orbit.
Depending on the source of the inaccuracy, our aimbots in the power armour may significantly mitigate that issue.
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- Location
- Germany
Maybe, but the problem is we desperately need information about how much the infantry sized foundries actually produce EP wise per turn.
And so far, QM has refused to answer that question.
So our only real option here is to actually build some so we can get some data instead of wild guessing.
Something that is also needed to get an idea how costly it will be to equip our army (also if the shrine finishes, more ideas about if we actually get mass recruitment later on or if it is still 1 detachment per AP).
With that info we can actually start making plans based on our capabilities and lay a good foundation for our army that way.
And I think you're outrigt wrong about this; I think Mechanis has been pretty clear that these are our primary production facilities, and what we're expected to be using to make equipment.
RandomTechPriest
He Who Steals Toasters
Void Guard Armor, Starblaster Carbine, and Light Rending Blade is a combination that can deal with 99.9% of all threats the galaxy can throw at that squad. They can fire on the run, they can melt vehicles, and they can mow through heavy infantry and chaff with equal efficiently.
While the 19 EP used to create the gear for each trooper is significant (not counting any additional external shielding) they need no heavy weapon support to accomplish their goals. It simplifies logistics into 3 items without need for anything else allowing us to automate production with only 3 forges.
While the 19 EP used to create the gear for each trooper is significant (not counting any additional external shielding) they need no heavy weapon support to accomplish their goals. It simplifies logistics into 3 items without need for anything else allowing us to automate production with only 3 forges.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
And at this point, you're now spending minimum 12 EP for a single infantryelf. That's not too bad on the squad level, but there's up to 10 squaddies per squad. You're now paying 120 EP Per Squad assuming you're only giving them armor and a rifle.
That's not a lot, but the difference between 8 EP per squaddie and 12 EP Adds up real fucking fast on the scale that Detachments work on.
- Location
- Germany
Yes, he has outright said that using BAP to make stuff is very wasteful when it comes to AP usage, but in exchange its fast.
Not really max 3 of the same squad and max 5 troops.
So max of 600 EP for all troop slots filled isn't a lot, if we have a second troop design that also cost 120 per.
You are still paying less than the cost of some single vehicles we have.
You might have a point if everyone was in 23EP armor + 2-3 weapons on top, but 12 EP is dirt cheap.
Edit:
Also what do people say about grabbing these:
[ ] Develop Basic Grenades (1 AP)
[ ] Develop Standalone Sensor Package (1 AP)
[ ] Develop Melta Weapons (1 point)
[ ] Develop Basic Missile Launchers (2 points)
Before doing any more ground forces redesigns, because i would very much like to include them ?
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Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
I would point out too that 12 EP assumes we only give them a rifle and armor too, with no other added gear.
Point is, good gear is expensive, and ultimately, if it were possible to make an army off of like, a dozen guys, you need to build around it from the ground up, and give way more redundancy than Space Elves are capable of, since anything that goes wrong is going to be hard to recover from.
But whatever, it is what it is. The thing that Really pisses me off is how the other option pretends it just disagrees on the conversion fields and armor, but tries to slip in stripping our garrison bare hoping nobody notices, apparently.
Point is, good gear is expensive, and ultimately, if it were possible to make an army off of like, a dozen guys, you need to build around it from the ground up, and give way more redundancy than Space Elves are capable of, since anything that goes wrong is going to be hard to recover from.
But whatever, it is what it is. The thing that Really pisses me off is how the other option pretends it just disagrees on the conversion fields and armor, but tries to slip in stripping our garrison bare hoping nobody notices, apparently.
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I want the grenades and standalone sensors.
Grenades because they're a cheap boost to our infantry, sensors because I want to put together an elite mortar team and they really need those. Scouts probably like them too; what do the sensors on our bikes look like?
Melta I'm not sure about; we have gravsheer weapons which seem to fit the same niche?
Missiles I'm not sure we want for infantry specifically, but I want done at some point. Before we design a superiority fighter, at minimum.
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- Location
- Somewhere Beyond the Sea
If we can cough up the BAP for them (which we might since Meros won't be a damsel in distress for much longer) and nothing shiny distracts me, then yeah we can grab them.
(Also Zahr-Tann has mechs, I want them, I need them, it works for the Imperium and canon Eldar, it'll work for us)
- Location
- Germany
Melta weapons are one of the premier weapons you use to kill (heavy) tanks with infantry (eldar fusion gun)
They are also opening the way for melta bombs and warheads, I am pretty sure.
- Location
- Somewhere Beyond the Sea
Off topic, but is it alright if you could edit the Aledmoot plan to include the new fleet roster that Skjadir will make? (Since you posted the vote for them while they were inactive?)
@Skjadir The floor is yours, big point of contention is that the fleet size we're sending off to do stuff is leaving us too vulnerable for the turn
- Location
- Germany
Point is i personally don't care to much about the warrior part, other than sending people over to meros, getting the rest of the convois going and some reinforcement for our pirate hunters.
The thing that gets me to scratch my head is how people complain about stripping our defense as if Meros won't complete this turn. Following by panic that we are in danger when nothing is attacking us this turn.
But due to me personally not caring about the warrior parts to much, i would switch them over if that means winning the conversion field and Bonesinger parts of the vote.
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I'm not going anywhere right now, I'll keep paying attention for an update.
- Location
- Germany
Update to the warrior part and yes it is pretty much just a copy from the baseline Plan: The Aeldmoot as that is the part that people apparently complain about the most when it comes to differences and gave as reason for why the go for the baseline plan.
-[][WARRIOR][MEROS] Recall for Repairs
--[] 12 Damaged Lance Cutters, 9 Damaged Lance Sloops, 10 Damaged Assault Ketches, 2 Damaged Caravels
-[][WARRIOR][MEROS] Send Reinforcements
--[] 20 War Ketches, The 3rd Heavy Fleet (ALLIED), 1st and 2nd Battle Hosts (ALLIED)
-[][WARRIOR][EVACUATION] Assign additional Escort Ships
--[] 1x Battle Caravel, 2x War Ketches, 1x Assault Ketch, 1x Nettle Destroyer each, when we run out of Nettles, send another War Ketch instead
-[][WARRIOR][VAL-TERRINE] Dispatch an Allied Force
--[] 2nd Line Fleet, 11th Scout Fleet, and 1st Line Host
I suppose my confusion is that that seems to be the same niche that the gravsheer weaponry has, and people have previously discussed making those into missiles and torpedos, too.
It's just 1 BAP, so I'm sure we'll get them sooner-or-later.
Edit: Plan alteration seems to have taken, though the tally is being buggy.
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The big thing is, I don't think anyone has come up with a realistic scenario why a few squads more or less partial infantry equipment will make a strategic difference in the next couple of turns, or, indeed, ever. No one seems to have even tried to justify in detail why it actually makes a real impact on what we can do given our current situation and available resources.
I can justify why the shipyards are important to do now. Currently, Arach-Qin is selling an irreplaceable artifact for a miniscule fraction of its true value in return for our help. This could quite reasonably be seem as us predatorily taking advantage of their desperation to make a very unbalanced commercial trade.
By going above and beyond, we demonstrate that we're actually genuinely interested in alliance and friendship, we aren't just cynically ripping them off.
This is particularly important this turn as we're likely to meet up with a bunch of minor Craft and Exodite Worlds at the moot, and the leader of Arach-Qin having greater goodwill to us makes it more likely he'll say nice things, and encourage them to open negotiations to work with us. Having more options for diplomacy would be a good thing.
Additionally, having their shipyards fixed earlier means Arach-Qin's fleet is likely to be stronger earlier, making them more capable of defending themselves and going out to beat up the orks some more, weakening our enemies and stregnthening an ally, which are benefits all of their own
Perhaps these are only marginal difference, but it is a genuinely plausible difference to our strategic position.
What are the equivilent scenarios for why having some extra infantry wargear in our stockpiles and knowing how forges work a turn earlier are important? Particularly as we'll likely not be ready to properly use the information about how forges work for a couple more turns anyway.
We don't need to know that now, as we don't need to build infantry yet, and we haven't seem what the Warrior Shrine and Hall of Stewards do, and we have a couple of turns of seeker and bonesinger research to do before we can finalise our squad loadouts, which are also key things we need to know before we can really plan. We'll need to know this by turn 7. We don't need to know it by turn 5.
We certainly don't need to make two forges to learn this.
He told us that it was much slower than using BAP to make equipment, and that it produced a trickle over time. A BAP is worth 480 EP, so I think a forge is probably worth, say 50-100 EP per turn. Once we've built a large number of them it may be true, but in the short run I would only expect to make a few squads worth of gear a turn
I can justify why the shipyards are important to do now. Currently, Arach-Qin is selling an irreplaceable artifact for a miniscule fraction of its true value in return for our help. This could quite reasonably be seem as us predatorily taking advantage of their desperation to make a very unbalanced commercial trade.
By going above and beyond, we demonstrate that we're actually genuinely interested in alliance and friendship, we aren't just cynically ripping them off.
This is particularly important this turn as we're likely to meet up with a bunch of minor Craft and Exodite Worlds at the moot, and the leader of Arach-Qin having greater goodwill to us makes it more likely he'll say nice things, and encourage them to open negotiations to work with us. Having more options for diplomacy would be a good thing.
Additionally, having their shipyards fixed earlier means Arach-Qin's fleet is likely to be stronger earlier, making them more capable of defending themselves and going out to beat up the orks some more, weakening our enemies and stregnthening an ally, which are benefits all of their own
Perhaps these are only marginal difference, but it is a genuinely plausible difference to our strategic position.
What are the equivilent scenarios for why having some extra infantry wargear in our stockpiles and knowing how forges work a turn earlier are important? Particularly as we'll likely not be ready to properly use the information about how forges work for a couple more turns anyway.
We don't need to know that now, as we don't need to build infantry yet, and we haven't seem what the Warrior Shrine and Hall of Stewards do, and we have a couple of turns of seeker and bonesinger research to do before we can finalise our squad loadouts, which are also key things we need to know before we can really plan. We'll need to know this by turn 7. We don't need to know it by turn 5.
We certainly don't need to make two forges to learn this.
He told us that it was much slower than using BAP to make equipment, and that it produced a trickle over time. A BAP is worth 480 EP, so I think a forge is probably worth, say 50-100 EP per turn. Once we've built a large number of them it may be true, but in the short run I would only expect to make a few squads worth of gear a turn
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- Location
- Germany
With the changes to the warrior AP part in place would any of the people that previously complained about that, but wanted the convention field/bonesinger AP second of the industry part be willing to switch over ?
The only differences now between the base plan and the industry version are the foundries that get build and the conversion field.
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50-100 a turn puts the rate of production as worse than doing Enhance Industry and assigning the resulting BAP to wargear production.
They're almost certainly 240-480 for the infantry wargear production. Still much slower for immediate needs than BAP, taking two to four turns to pay off.