A Different Breed (Warhammer 29K)
- Location
- yorkshire
[X] "Forgehammer" Main Battle Tank (Max slots)
[X] "Vaul's Anvil" Superheavy Grav-Tank (Revamped)
[X] "Vaul's Anvil" Superheavy Grav-Tank (Revamped)
I would guess that needlers get multiple attacks, but have AP 0, and are only strength 3 or so. The same firepower as a lasgun, but with more shots basically. The extra BS of fate-weapons deserves a named so let's call it Fatebound. Strength 6, AP-3 is pretty strong for those guns.
Given the similarity to canon Shuriken weaponry in its monomolecular sharp Wrathbone nature, The Needlers would probably be closer to Ap-1.
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
[X] "Vaul's Anvil" Superheavy Grav-Tank (Revamped)
-[X] Heavy Grav-Vehicle Chassis.
-[X] 1x Starblade (Superheavy Slot)
-[X] 1x Starlance (Vehicle Slot) 1x Fatesever Cannon
-[X] 2x Fatecaster Rifles (Heavy Slot) 1x Starcarver (Heavy Slot).
-[X] 1x Vehicle Holo-Field, 3x Grav-Shields
-[X] Trade in 2 Ranged Slots -> 1 System Slot.
-[X] Trade in 9 System Slots -> 1 Vehicle Slots + 1 Heavy Slot
-[X] 1x Fatesever Cannon (Vehicle Slot).
-[X] (Crew Equipment) Void Guard Armour, Starblaster Rifles + CCW (Hammers)
[X] "Forgehammer" Main Battle Tank (Max slots)
-[X] Light Grav-Vehicle Chassis
-[X] 1x Starlance (Vehicle Slot)
-[X] 1x Spike Cannon, 1x Heavy Needler (Heavy Slot)
-[X] 1x Vehicle Holo-Field
-[X] 2x Vehicle Grav-Shield
-[X] Convert 4 System Slots -> 1 Heavy + 1 Ranged Slot
-[X] 1x Starcarver (Heavy Slot)
-[X] 1x Needler Rifle (Regular Slot)
-[X] (Crew Equipment), Void Guard Armour, Spike Rifle, CCW Knife.
[X] "Chisel" Fast Assault Jetbike (Bright Talon Refit)
-[X] Heavy Jetbike Chassis
-[X] 1x Starcarver (Heavy Slot),
-[X] 2x Needler Rifles (Ranged Slot)
-[X] 1x Vehicle Holo-Field,
-[X] (Crew Equipment) Void Guard Armour, Flamer Pistol + CCW
-[X] Heavy Grav-Vehicle Chassis.
-[X] 1x Starblade (Superheavy Slot)
-[X] 1x Starlance (Vehicle Slot) 1x Fatesever Cannon
-[X] 2x Fatecaster Rifles (Heavy Slot) 1x Starcarver (Heavy Slot).
-[X] 1x Vehicle Holo-Field, 3x Grav-Shields
-[X] Trade in 2 Ranged Slots -> 1 System Slot.
-[X] Trade in 9 System Slots -> 1 Vehicle Slots + 1 Heavy Slot
-[X] 1x Fatesever Cannon (Vehicle Slot).
-[X] (Crew Equipment) Void Guard Armour, Starblaster Rifles + CCW (Hammers)
[X] "Forgehammer" Main Battle Tank (Max slots)
-[X] Light Grav-Vehicle Chassis
-[X] 1x Starlance (Vehicle Slot)
-[X] 1x Spike Cannon, 1x Heavy Needler (Heavy Slot)
-[X] 1x Vehicle Holo-Field
-[X] 2x Vehicle Grav-Shield
-[X] Convert 4 System Slots -> 1 Heavy + 1 Ranged Slot
-[X] 1x Starcarver (Heavy Slot)
-[X] 1x Needler Rifle (Regular Slot)
-[X] (Crew Equipment), Void Guard Armour, Spike Rifle, CCW Knife.
[X] "Chisel" Fast Assault Jetbike (Bright Talon Refit)
-[X] Heavy Jetbike Chassis
-[X] 1x Starcarver (Heavy Slot),
-[X] 2x Needler Rifles (Ranged Slot)
-[X] 1x Vehicle Holo-Field,
-[X] (Crew Equipment) Void Guard Armour, Flamer Pistol + CCW
I think part of how needlers get their rate of fire is by using absolutely tiny shards of wraithbone, which inherently limits how destructive any individual shard can be. 'Closer to ap-1' is still ap0, in other words, and you make up for it by being Rapid fire with 2 attacks *base*.
grimely
Twink Death Sufferer
S3 would make Needlers weaker than Shurikens, when they just seem to be objectively better than them was my thought process. The extra BS would in 10th just be noted by having a better to-hit on the unit datasheet, but I'm not crazy to make those. Yet.
Mechanis
Confirmed Extremely Screwed
- Location
- Absconding with Alacrity
Needlers are firing the exact same projectiles as Fatecasters, they're just not homing bullets (and, you know, being fired faster because more barrels) so if anything the only difference mechanically (in this context) would be that Needlers get multiple attacks while Fatecasters are "I hit, short of [list of defensive Wargear]" and some kind of "very very likely to hit something important" effect. (Spikes meanwhile would be significantly more punchy, because bigger projectiles)
So the choice would be "shoot lots" (needlers), "shoot good" (Fatecasters), and "shoot hard" (Spike weapons)
Edit: basically, if the job is "mow down that horde of hive gangers/crazy cultists/Hapless Guardsmen™" then you want a Needler. If the job is "Attack the weak point for massive damage" then you want a Fatecaster. If the job is "put down an Ork Nob that just chugged a whole flask of Fightn' Juice and is now charging your position in one or two shots" then you want a Spike Rifle, or, preferably, Cannon.
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grimely
Twink Death Sufferer
The wargame doesn't really model hit locations, so I decided to model Fatecasters being weird and homing by giving them more Strength and AP, which increases their likelihood to do damage, instead of writing or using a cumbersome special rule.
Mechanis
Confirmed Extremely Screwed
- Location
- Absconding with Alacrity
Generally there's some kind of "this does extra damage because it hit something important" mechanic, or systems getting disabled, or something along those lines. Fatecaster weapons would be "if you don't have some kind of active defense (void shields, an Iron Halo, whatever) I don't even have to check if I hit you, because the answer is yes" and some kind of "Oh also I hit you somewhere important, like your gun, or your engine, or that one tiny gap in the plating that has a critical power run right under it" effect (however that mechanic is being handled)
grimely
Twink Death Sufferer
AP is the "if you don't have an active defense I hit you" mechanic, and again, the wargame doesn't have hit locations so the only real way you could model hitting something important would be to have it be more deadly.
Mechanis
Confirmed Extremely Screwed
- Location
- Absconding with Alacrity
Huh, so they just canned capacity degradation entirely? That seems... Well on the one hand it is less overhead, on the other hand it seems... Kinda videogamey to just have damage as "everything works perfectly at full capacity until the unit blows up/falls over." Doesn't exactly leave a lot of room for tactical nuance or the epic moment of the deweaponed and actively on fire Baneblade running over a Hive Tyrant, and if that example seems oddly specific...
Edit: also how the hecc are you supposed to handle Haywire weapons or like half the Mechanicum stuff that has "Lol I shut your fancy toys down" as a side effect (or sole effect, for the former) if you're not tracking things like "my gun broke" and whatnot? I mean, you could probably do a bunch of special carveouts just for those, but sheeze, overcomplicated much?
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grimely
Twink Death Sufferer
Well vehicles do still have degradation, but it's entirely a function of their wound count, and they just get slightly worse instead of actively disabled. The game has gotten immensely simpler since when you last played, which sounds like it was around 4th Edition.
- Location
- madison
could you explain your logic for the weapon loadout? the Starblade makes sense, it's the primary weapon of the tank that lets it one tap light titans. the Starlance's make sense as secondary's, giving it something to clear away the lesser vehicles that are often escorting titans and the like. The Starcarver makes sense as a defensive weapon, something to kill heavy infantry or light vehicle trying to swarm it, but the Fatesever cannon and the Fatecaster Rifles baffle me. It does not need more anti tank, and as defensive weapons Fatecaster Rifles don't make any sense, they are meant for long range elimination of high value infantry targets, that's not useful for keeping a tank from being swarmed by hundred lunatics with meltabombs. The Fatesever Cannon is redundant with the starlance, and also meant for picking off key sub-super heavy vehicles from long range, it's not efficient for dealing with a squadron of lemen russ tanks or the like bearing down on you. The fate weaponry is decently expensive, so using it for a role it does not excel in is odd to me, is there a reason you are specifically using the fatecaster rifle and the Fatesever Cannon?
Aside from that, I also don't understand why you are giving the crew speical weapons? this is titan killer, not a troop transport, is there a tactic yoour envisioning where they fight like dragoons or something?
one last thing, I noticed was I was typing this up, that Starcarvers are heavy weapons not vehicle, I don't know if you can scale them up? so I think the one starcarver should be two.
[X] Anvil of Sundering (Starlance Salvage edition)
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Mechanis
Confirmed Extremely Screwed
- Location
- Absconding with Alacrity
Man, if it's gotten that dumbed down I sure am glad I got put off by the edition churn. If they're not even bothering to track which gun broke so you actually have to change tactics based on "crap, we lost the main gun" and similar I don't think I could even have much fun.
Honestly, it sounds like the later editions are the spawn of the same Good Idea Fairy as D&D 4E and Teen Titans Go and therefore getting a hard pass, not that I was inclined to give Geedubs any more money than they've already pried out of High School Me.
- Location
- Utrecht
Me: WTF does Strength 28 even dooooo? Does it mean AV goes higher than 14? Or are they applying instant death to AV as well?
- Location
- Somewhere Beyond the Sea
That's the old design of the plan, it's been updated since then.
Here's the updated version of the SH tank
Ok, so, big differences between the first plan and the second one is a realisation that Starcarvers can't be upgraded to vehicle-grade / can't take a vehicle slot so I had to do some finagling to accommodate everything.
Bolded versions are new editions to the plan.
The fatesevers are designed to be able to handle any kind of Holo-Field or speed-related dickery by basically guaranteeing that every shot hits and hits SOMETHING important, for example, say Biel-Tan has a superheavy with a holo-field like a canon Scorpion or Cobra tank, that means that targeting it with our starlances, carvers, or Starblade means that there's a chance that we will miss them if we just hit them with those cannons.
The twin fatesevers will not miss, however, so even if we can't hit a Holo-Fielded tank with our main guns, these two fatesevers are guaranteed to lay the hurt on them.
As for their efficacy against large groups of tanks? They should manage reasonably well against most threats it comes across (the starcarver would probably seriously damage those Leman Russ tanks) and the Starlance will handle most of the enemy armour coming our way (As much as I disagree with the idea of sticking a SH Starlance onto our tank and calling it a titan-killer, the vehicle grade versions are capable of firing fast enough to dispose of most threats before they're able to overwhelm us)
Besides, the purpose of the Anvil is primarily Anti-Titan thanks to the starblade, that's it's main job, if it's bigger than a skyscraper and walks on two legs, it gets vaporized, the rest of the arsenal just means that it'll be a more effective generalist SH tank and is able to more efficiently defend itself from attackers or contribute to other non-titan related fights it might get into.
Personally, I'd pair these with an escort of Forgehammers and a mirage or two's worth of infantry to screen it (and yes, you should always screen your tanks with infantry and smaller vehicles if you can help it) and provide backup, it'll be bad news if these things are fighting on their own.
Still though, even with this advice of taking an escort force, it's still better at multiple roles than a SH Starlance option.
TLDR: Fatesevers guarantee that anything we shoot at gets damaged / destroyed, and would undoubtedly fare very well against holo-fields for when we inevitably fight Biel-Tan.
As for the Fatecaster rifles, IIRC, Mechanis stated that they shoot fast and hit hard, but the Needlers (being a cheaper version without the scopes) compensate for their lack of accuracy by basically duct-taping multiple Fatecaster barrels together, so they'll still shoot reasonably fast enough to melt any infantry trying to swarm it (and even if there ARE infantry trying to swarm it, 9 times out of 10 we'll have some kind of infantry / tank escort following with or behind our Anvil, like the Forgehammer)
So basically, they'll do their jobs as an anti-tarpit tertiary arsenal, while also being pretty good against heavy infantry.
I don't get where this thought of "They're designed only for picking off high-value targets" comes from in terms of the Fatecaster weapons by the way, the only evidence I remember that backs this was the flavour text in the Fatebreaker hearthguard detachment (which states that they're USING it to pick off high value targets, not that the weapon was engineered as some high power sniper rifle, it's basically a machine gun with aimbot firing bullets the size of your finger)
Maybe you could get away with this logic with the Fatesever, but even still, they most likely can shoot fast enough to deal with multiple targets, and even if they can't, they still have the starlance or (if things get desperate) the main cannon (the Starblade) to mop up the tanks trying to swarm it.
Again though, if it ever comes down to a point where our SH is out of position and being swarmed by lesser tanks, we have screwed up on the tactics somewhere, and that's why I'm hoping we'll be able to cover for that eventuality using the Forgehammer and Chisel designs to help cover its flanks and deal with tanks + infantry, though, to be honest, the SH starlance designs are even MORE vulnerable to being overwhelmed than the Vanvil considering they either only have a heavy needler or nothing at all.
Lastly, the crew, and for once, this one's pretty simple.
The VGA armour is for crew survivability (so that anything that hits the tanks doesn't kill them / knock them unconscious, and for the Chisel, it's common sense since they're basically on a bike and need all the extra protection they can get), I'm also hoping that there's a nice synergy between the autotargeters in the VGA suits and our tanks (basically improving our accuracy.), the Starblaster rifles (and spike rifles for the Forgehammer), are basically emergency weapons for if/when the crew of the tank has to evac the tanks and with the armour + rifle, they'll be more likely to fight their way back to safety / defend the wreckage until we can scoot by and pick them + the tank up.
Basically, when shit goes down, the armour will keep them safe while they pilot the tanks, the targeters in their suits will make aiming our non-fatecaster weaponry more efficient and the rifle is their insurance for when the tanks don't work anymore and they need to GTFO.
(Plus, crew survivability matters a lot, an experienced tank crew is worth their weight in gold to a militarized force and the armour helps the crews live longer to GET experience)
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- Location
- Utrecht
Edit: tiebreaker
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grimely
Twink Death Sufferer
Yeah if you want that level of greebilness you have to play BattleTech these days. I suppose I could write up 4th stats but that'd require me dusting off my old codices. If you played any of Fantasy though you might be happy to learn that Old World is just as meticulous as it was.
- Location
- Somewhere Beyond the Sea
If the Suncleave voters threw me a vote or two, we could probably secure the vote for a viable generalist SH (with anti-Titan capabilities) with the Vaul's Anvil.
I'm a little iffy at the concept of the mortar skimmer, but with any luck it won't need a refit to accept different grenade types.
If we grab the Vaul's Anvil, we should then grab the Forgehammer to act as our MBT / help screen for the Anvil.
Edit: Harlequin'ed
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- Location
- Utrecht
If the multiple loadouts works out, it will be incredibly flexible though, which is the main selling point.
We're probably getting frag and krak grenades next turn.
Edit: Yes, they are a thing, and we should be able to get them too XD.
Plasma grenade research be unlocked when we finish plasma research and grenade research.
Then there are Monoball Grenades, which we might unlock when we do monowire weapons.
Ooh, and Tanglefoot grenades, which appear to be Grav-tech.
And of course, Vortex grenades
.Edit 2: And it would only be a small step up from a grenade launcher to a missile launcher
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And of course, Vortex grenades
Nothing like sending your Enemies straight to Hell. Take no substitutes!
Haywire Grenades would be fun though. Good against pretty much everything.
[X] "Vaul's Anvil" Superheavy Grav-Tank (Revamped)
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- Location
- Somewhere Beyond the Sea
If / when we figure out warp weaponry, we could probably create an analogue to Imperial vortex grenades / create a handheld 'D-Grenade' that our infantry can use (except safer than an Imperial version because I do NOT want any vortex shennanigans if I can help it)
Vortex torpedoes would be juicy though.
Vortex torpedoes would be juicy though.