I'm somewhat more pessimistic on the EP production of our foundries. I'd expect no more than half the production of simply pushing the button, maybe a third or a quarter as much production (240-320 EP for superheavies, 120-160 for infantry gear). That's not as good as your numbers, but it still pays off reasonably quickly. The downside is we need a LOT and I mean a lot of foundries in order to make good production numbers.
A Different Breed (Warhammer 29K)
Pretty much all Eldar tech is Wraithbone based and Wraithbone is essentially a magic super material that Bonesingers can literally sing into existence and then psychically shape. It would be weird if they couldn't just reshape a Wraithbone construct into a different Wraithbone construct.
Also, as I mentioned in my previous post Starblades are "modified" SH Starlances so the SH Starlances we are stripping enmasse from our Ketch's shouldn't be too difficult to convert into Starblades.
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- Location
- Utrecht
Lets say converting a Starlance from an Escort to a Grav-tank saves 80% of the EP.
Would people be OK with paying +50EP and +5SC on top of that to convert that to a Starblade?
Would people be OK with paying +50EP and +5SC on top of that to convert that to a Starblade?
Starlances are perfectly serviceable against super heavies. We're removing them from voidship grade batteries of a pre-fall eldar ship, remember. They won't usually one shot a big Titan on hit but they'll make more hits because they're rapid-fire for a superheavy gun.
I'd keep Starlance on merits tbh. Starblades would be better against higher end superheavies but worse against everything else, and we'll only have one sh killer design for a while. So it's better if it's a generalist one.
I'd keep Starlance on merits tbh. Starblades would be better against higher end superheavies but worse against everything else, and we'll only have one sh killer design for a while. So it's better if it's a generalist one.
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- Location
- Utrecht
Oh, I know I'm not particularly sanguine about one or the other, either way.
A SH Star Lance is probably an even better version of the Craftworlder's Pulsars, and those are perfectly satisfactory at killing Superheavies.
But I have to balance that against reading about a titan being deleted in one shot... so, ehh, maybe?
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
Honestly I am starting to come around for the starlance.
I am thinking that for our superheavy, a more generalist MBT with some anti infantry porcupine power, and then a fast attack bike.
I am thinking that for our superheavy, a more generalist MBT with some anti infantry porcupine power, and then a fast attack bike.
Fair enough! FWIW I crunched the numbers and it's possible to put starblade + holofield (and that's it, nothing more fits) on a passenger shuttle frame. Imagine a flying invisible one-shot Titan deleter.
- Location
- United Kingdom
Apologies if it's been asked before, but would converting a Starlance into a Starblade cost less EP than building a Starblade from scratch @Mechanis? The argument's just going to go in circles otherwise.
Converting it from an Escort to a Grav tank saves 100% of the EP, because it's the exact same weapon just on a different vehicle.
- Location
- Somewhere Beyond the Sea
I just want everyone to keep in mind that this is a superheavy tank, something we can't (and shouldn't) mass produce and throw onto every battlefield like a regular MBT or skimmer, these should be the 'Oh shit, there's a titan, a fortress and a small army's worth of enemies, bring out the titan-killer' option that we deploy to a fight in very limited numbers (definitely no more than 2 or three per warhost) and however way you slice it, these are heavy enough and expensive enough to justify better equipment.
(Besides, overkill can't be anything BUT a good thing considering we're fighting Orks and overpenetrating a knight / SH just means the city full of Orks behind them gets glassed too)
(Besides, overkill can't be anything BUT a good thing considering we're fighting Orks and overpenetrating a knight / SH just means the city full of Orks behind them gets glassed too)
- Location
- Germany
The super heavy tank is our answer to:
Lots of medium armored tanks, other super heavy tanks/vehicles, some really heavy fortification we like to see go, and they can be an answer to Titans but shouldn't be.
Also 2-3 per warhost is still likely more than we will build at this point (aka while we do the refits) even with the discount, make that more like 1 for the heavy warhosts.
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Starlance vs lascannon is better. Starblade vs starlance is specialized. Better in one particular kind of engagement - vs high end enemy superheavies, worse in all others.
If we are going to have only one superheavy for the next while then we should get one that will be able to deal with all threats. As I've highlighted before if the superheavy Starlance were truly adequate for Titan-Killer duties then the Starblade wouldn't have needed to be designed.
Pulsar's are also arguably not the best Titan-killer weapon used by the Eldar. D-Bombards and Wraithknigtht scale Wraithcannons both outmuscle them in the Titan-killing department since they bypass shields and ignore armor to an even greater degree.
Ditto for Imperial Knights which use Volcano Lances for Titan-killing rather than some Turbolaser variant.
Another dimension we haven't considered is that none of our vehicles or vehicle designs are equipped with anti-tank Fatecaster weapons like Fatesever cannons.
Considering the fact that we will be facing off against Biel Tan soon we should at least have something armed with at least a Fatesever or two so that we have something that can bypass any Holo-field shenanigan's that Biel Tan's vehicles can try.
If people are already balking at the idea of using Starblades over Starlances for one superheavy vehicle they are going to balk even more at building an entirely seperate superheavy vehicle just for a Starblade.
The Suncleave has 2 Fatesever cannons and 2 Starcarvers, it isn't going to do badly against large groups of medium armor.
They also absolutely should be our answer to Titans since we aren't likely to shell out resources for another vehicle with a superheavy weapon any time soon.
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- Location
- United Kingdom
No one's talking about mass producing them, but that doesn't mean price isn't a factor when we've got so much on our plate already when it comes to reforming our armies.
Overkill is good but you're acting like it comes with no tradeoffs. The Starlance's RoF means it's a hell of a lot more useful against smaller/more numerous targets, and IMO we're not so flush with either resources or AP that we can choose to make our superheavy tank so specialised.
Frankly that argument doesn't hold up. You're looking at the pinnacle of ground-based Titan-killer weaponry and deciding that means nothing else is worth it.
And how does 'getting one superheavy able to deal with all threats' match up with 'specialise in dealing with Titans at the expense of everything else'?
[X] Haboob Grav-tank
-[X] Light Grav-Vehicle
--[X][Vehicle] Fatesever Cannon (60 EP, SR 2)
--[X][Heavy] 1x Heavy Needler (10 EP), 2x Spike Cannon (24 EP)
–[X][Ranged] Starblaster Rifle (10 EP, SR 2)
--[X][System Slot] Vehicle Holo-Field (18 EP), 2x Vehicle Grav-Shield (60 EP)
–[X][Trade] 3 Slot for 1 Heavy, Trade 1 Slot for 1 Ranged
–[X][Crew] Wraithweave Brigantine (2 EP), Spike Carbine (4 EP)
Total: 188 EP, 2 Fatebender Psy-scope, 2 Starcrystals
[X] Heavy Gale Speeder
-[X] Speeder
--[X][Heavy] Starcarver (30 EP, 8 SR)
--[X][Ranged] 2 Fatesplitter Carbines (14 EP, 2 SR)
--[X][System slot] Vehicle Holo-Field (18 EP), Vehicle Grav-Shield (30 EP)
--[X][Crew] Wraithweave Brigantine (2 EP), Spike Pistol (3 EP), CCW (Knife) (1 EP)
Total: 98 EP with 2 Fatebender Psy-scope, and 8 Starcrystals
[X] "Vaul's Anvil" Superheavy Grav-Tank (Revamped)
-[X] Light Grav-Vehicle
--[X][Vehicle] Fatesever Cannon (60 EP, SR 2)
--[X][Heavy] 1x Heavy Needler (10 EP), 2x Spike Cannon (24 EP)
–[X][Ranged] Starblaster Rifle (10 EP, SR 2)
--[X][System Slot] Vehicle Holo-Field (18 EP), 2x Vehicle Grav-Shield (60 EP)
–[X][Trade] 3 Slot for 1 Heavy, Trade 1 Slot for 1 Ranged
–[X][Crew] Wraithweave Brigantine (2 EP), Spike Carbine (4 EP)
Total: 188 EP, 2 Fatebender Psy-scope, 2 Starcrystals
[X] Heavy Gale Speeder
-[X] Speeder
--[X][Heavy] Starcarver (30 EP, 8 SR)
--[X][Ranged] 2 Fatesplitter Carbines (14 EP, 2 SR)
--[X][System slot] Vehicle Holo-Field (18 EP), Vehicle Grav-Shield (30 EP)
--[X][Crew] Wraithweave Brigantine (2 EP), Spike Pistol (3 EP), CCW (Knife) (1 EP)
Total: 98 EP with 2 Fatebender Psy-scope, and 8 Starcrystals
[X] "Vaul's Anvil" Superheavy Grav-Tank (Revamped)
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Also if Biel-Tan comes in with super heavies they will probably put in super heavy/titan grade holofields if they can. In that case having a higher rate of fire will probably help in case of missed (or less effectively placed) shots due to them.
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[X] Aurora Tank Destroyer(164 EP, 20 starcrystals)
-[X] Speeder (46 EP)
-[X] Trade in 1 Heavy slot for 2 system slots, 2 Ranged slots for 1 system slot, 6 system slots for 1 Vehicle slot
-[X] Weapons: 1 Starlance (100 EP, 20 starcrystals)
-[X] Defense: Holo-Field (18 EP)
[X] Hailstorm Grav-Tank (402 EP, 5 Psy-Scope)
-[X] Light Grav Vehicle (154 EP)
-[X] Trade in for mounts: +1 Vehicle, -1 Heavy, -4
-[X] Defenses: 1x Holo-Field, 2x Grav Shields (78 EP)
-[X] Weapons: 1 Fateshredder Cannon + 1 Fatesever Cannon (in the turret), 1 Starcarver (driver operated) (170 EP, 5 Psy-scopes, 8 SC)
[X] Anvil of Sundering (Starlance Salvage edition)
-[X] Heavy Grav-Tank
-[X] Trade in for mounts: -2 Vehicle, -1 Heavy, -2 Ranged +1 Superheavy (-19 Slots)
-[X] Defenses: 1x Holo-Field, 3x Grav Shields (108 EP)
-[X] Weapons: 2x SH Starlance, 1x H. Needler (710 EP, 90 Starcrystal)
-[X] Speeder (46 EP)
-[X] Trade in 1 Heavy slot for 2 system slots, 2 Ranged slots for 1 system slot, 6 system slots for 1 Vehicle slot
-[X] Weapons: 1 Starlance (100 EP, 20 starcrystals)
-[X] Defense: Holo-Field (18 EP)
[X] Hailstorm Grav-Tank (402 EP, 5 Psy-Scope)
-[X] Light Grav Vehicle (154 EP)
-[X] Trade in for mounts: +1 Vehicle, -1 Heavy, -4
-[X] Defenses: 1x Holo-Field, 2x Grav Shields (78 EP)
-[X] Weapons: 1 Fateshredder Cannon + 1 Fatesever Cannon (in the turret), 1 Starcarver (driver operated) (170 EP, 5 Psy-scopes, 8 SC)
[X] Anvil of Sundering (Starlance Salvage edition)
-[X] Heavy Grav-Tank
-[X] Trade in for mounts: -2 Vehicle, -1 Heavy, -2 Ranged +1 Superheavy (-19 Slots)
-[X] Defenses: 1x Holo-Field, 3x Grav Shields (108 EP)
-[X] Weapons: 2x SH Starlance, 1x H. Needler (710 EP, 90 Starcrystal)
Also sorry to bug you again but the SC cost is now 66 instead of 74 due to a mistake.
I would argue that all the Dual SH Starlance tanks are actually more 'specialized' than the Suncleave. All the Dual SH Starlance designs seem to be mono-focused on fighting the Orks who are known for their huge numbers but they don't seem have even considered how these would fare against other Eldar like Biel Tan who we know will be attacking us soon.
None of the proposed designs aside from the Suncleave have Fatecaster type weapons which would be ideal for fighting Biel Tan's forces since they ignore Holo-Fields.
Remember that Holo-Fields are particularly effective against lance-type weapons which was why in the Ketch design vote we kept the Fatetwister battery despite concerns with cost.
The two 2 Fatesever cannons it has to help against medium armor will be extremely effective against whatever Biel Tan brings since they will ignore Holo-Fields.
The Suncleave's Starblade may the best anti-titan weapon we have but doesn't mean it is bad against other targets.
The Starblade's lower RoF is overstated since the quote about sacrifices to it's RoF is in relation to the Starlance which fires 4-5 times quicker than a conventional las-weapon of comparable size.
It should still be comparable to a conventional las-weapon of the SH size like a Turbolaser and Turbolasers are generalists noted to fire faster than Volcano cannons.
The Suncleave has 2 Fatesever cannons which while less powerful should still be effective since Fatecaster weapons actively target the weakpoints of their targets and are thus the best counter to Holo-Fields out of all the proposed designs.
While the Starlance does have better ROF than regular las-cannons I wouldn't be so sure that it can actually saturate an area with fire well enough to counter Holo-Fields.
The dual SH Starlances also won't be particularly effective against the lighter vehicles that Biel Tan will bring for the same reason while the Suncleave's two Fatesevers will be the only anti-armor Fatecaster weaponry we have on the field since no other designs have included them.
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Noted, thanks for info! Final votes:
[X] "Forgehammer" Main Battle Tank (Max slots)
-[X] Light Grav-Vehicle Chassis
-[X] 1x Starlance (Vehicle Slot)
-[X] 1x Spike Cannon, 1x Heavy Needler (Heavy Slot)
-[X] Vehicle Holo-Field
-[X] 2x Vehicle Grav-Shield
-[X] Convert 4 System Slots -> 1 Heavy + 1 Ranged Slot
-[X] 1x Starcarver (Heavy Slot)
-[X] 1x Needler Rifle (Regular Slot)
-[X] (Crew Equipment), Void Guard Armour, Spike Rifle, CCW Knife.
[X] "Chisel" Fast Assault Skimmer
-[X] Skimmer Chassis
-[X] 1x Starcarver, 1x Fatecaster Rifle (Heavy Slot).
-[X] 2x Needler Rifles (Ranged Slot)
-[X] 1x Vehicle Holo-Field
-[X] Convert 3 System Slots -> 1 Heavy Slot.
-[X] (Crew Equipment) Void Guard Armour, Flamer Pistol + CCW
[X] Suncleave Heavy Tank (796EP 68SC 6PS 30 System Slots)
-[X] Heavy Grav-Vehicle
-[X] Slots: 22 System Slots Converted
--[X] 6 Heavy Weapon Slots (18 System Slots)
--[X] 1 Ranged Weapon Slot (1 System Slot)
--[X] Vehicle Holo-Field x1, Vehicle Grav-Shield x3 (108 EP) (11 System Slots)
-[X] Weapons:
--[X] Superheavy: 1 Starblade (400 EP 50SC)
--[X] Vehicle: 2 Fatesever Cannon (120EP 4PS)
--[X] Heavy: 2 Starcarver, 2 Fatecaster Rifle, 4 Heavy Needlers (150EP 18SC 2PS)
--[X] Ranged: 3 Needler Rifles (18EP)
edit: included the revamped Anvil for reasons explained in my later post.
[X] "Vaul's Anvil" Superheavy Grav-Tank (Revamped)
--[X] 1x Starblade (Superheavy Slot)
--[X] 2x Starlance (Vehicle Slot)
--[X] 2x Fatecaster Rifles (Heavy Slot) 1x Starcarver (Heavy Slot)
--[X] Trade in 2 Ranged Slots -> 1 System Slot.
--[X] Trade in 15 System Slots -> 2 Vehicle Slots + 1 Heavy Slot
--[X] 1x Fatesever Cannon (Vehicle Slot)
--[X] (Crew Equipment) Void Guard Armour, Starblaster Rifles + CCW (Hammers)
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- Location
- Somewhere Beyond the Sea
The thing is though, we can create an option to dealing with medium tanks and other assorted chaff, the Forgehammer design would be an effective MBT for this reason (A vehicle grade starlance - which is three/five times as powerful as a lascannon mounted on an Imperium tank - lets us chew through most armoured threats we have to deal with (hell, the Starcarver is TWO TIMES as powerful as a lascannon, that's bound to seriously threaten most unshielded tanks)
Best to just save the Superheavies for when there's a titan stomping around / heavy fortification that needs demolition.
That's only if we throw every system slot we have into giving the tank superheavy weaponry and cannibalize the other weapon slots, which shouldn't be the way to build a SH imo (leaves it anemic otherwise).
The thing is though, this isn't really min-maxxing our SH - or at least we SHOULDN'T be gluing an extra SH Starlance onto each tank and gutting the rest of its arsenal to fit it if we can help it, THAT is over-specialising.
For the sake of providing an alternative, I'll be using my plan for a superheavy tank as a visual aide and try to break down each part and why I think it works together.
First up, the Starblade in out SH slot.
This should our big, anti-titan / anti-fortification gun, point it at anything smaller than a warhound titan and it will die (Flavour text implies that it can shoot THROUGH the titan's shields and still have enough firepower to instantly core it in a single shot)
Granted, it shoots a little slower than an equivalent starlance, but this in comparison to Starlances which are stated to fire uu
pwards of FIVE TIMES faster than any Imperial equivalent.
Fire rate shouldn't be an issue with the main cannon, and the ability to instantly no-sell most forms of superheavy or titan-related dickery cannot be understated.
But with only one SH, this gives us the option to select MORE weaponry to generalise our titan killer further.
For example, two vehicle grade Starlances.
These are going to be our anti-armour implements for when there's an armored target in front of us (main battle tanks, walkers, dreadnoughts etc), but we don't want to waste a shot from our starblade on them, plenty of fire rate, plenty of damage, a pretty good support to the main cannon in terms of dealing with fortifications (or at least it SHOULD be good for forts) and heavy armour, all in all, a pretty effective secondary weapon for the VAnvil without compromising the efficacy of our main cannon.
3 Heavy Fatecasters are reserved for anti-infantry shredding, not much to really say on these other than that any MEQs or TEQs trying to take on the VA in a straight fight would be shredded piecemeal.
Next up is the vehicle grade Starcarver.
Now this, I admit, is reaching a little, this is primarily an anti-MEQ / TEQ weapon and would seem reasonably out of place on our tank, but here's my explanation why I've picked it:
This may be an anti-infantry weapon, but it's also TWICE as powerful as a lascannon with a LUDICROUS fire rate (Killing entire squads of space marines in seconds) which means that we essentially have a fast-firing laser weapon that can moonlight as an anti-vehicle / anti-fortification weapon in a pinch, might not be its intended role, but for supporting the starlances as a tertiary weapon system, it should do its job well.
Last and not least is the Fatesever.
This is for when an opponent is too slipperly for our other weapons to catch (like with Biel-Tan) and with the ability to almost always hit SOMETHING important thanks to the psy-scopes it won't take many shots before anything we deal with gets destroyed or proverbially nailed to the ground when it hits an engine and promptly glassed by the rest of the armament.
All of this combined should create a pretty healthy SH that can deal with pretty much anything we might encounter from the Orks, (fortifications, titans, superheavies etc) while ALSO giving us the ability to deal with lighter vehicles and infantry, and also dealing with any vehicles that might be as fast / faster than us or is using holo-fields.
And even if all of this DOESN'T work out and it still needs some supporting elements to keep an eye on the VAnvil, the Forgehammers, Chisels and our troops could screen it (and honestly, if any SH gets caught without an escort of infantry / smaller vehicles, that means we screwed up somewhere) and we can still one-shot a warhound thanks to its main cannon.
I admit, this plan isn't as perfect as it can be, the VAnvil could replace its starcarver with an extra fatesever cannon for even more anti-holo-field efficiency and we could sacrifice whatevers left of our system slots to cram in an extra gun or two, but the VAnvil would be a nice generalist alternative to the Anvilsund or any SH that goes all in on the big guns.
There's a good argument for a generalist superheavy with a Starblade main gun and a lot of supporting ones. There's also a good argument for a dedicated titankiller with a pair of Starlances. But the latter is 2-3 times cheaper because its guns are essentially free.
- Location
- Utrecht
Ork Escort and Gargants
Ork Gargants, Bigger
If the Starlances can hurt the Escort, they can destroy most Gargants with a few shots.
Ork Gargants, Bigger
If the Starlances can hurt the Escort, they can destroy most Gargants with a few shots.
Bog standard Turbolasers can hurt Escorts as we saw with with Mero's gunship swarm, doesn't mean that they are a good choice for dedicated Anti-Titan work.
- Location
- Somewhere Beyond the Sea
The price tag ultimately depends on if refitting the Ketches gives us SH Starlances, or just refunds the SCs, but I'd also like to contribute to the argument and say that a pair of SH starlances won't be anywhere near as effective for dealing with shielded titans than what we'd get out of a single Starblade generalist (one's flavour text lets us one-shot titans, the other does not)
There's also a pretty big difference in not just price, but effectiveness between a cheap twin starlance SH tank (that min-maxxes entirely into a sub-par anti-titan weapon since the Starblade just does its job better without needing to cannibalize its areenal for a second SH slot) and a slightly more expensive Starblade generalist that can be used for multiple roles thanks to not needing a second SH slot.
Plus those twin SH options leave us grievously vulnerable when dealing with enemy holo-fields or speedy vehicles in general.