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A Different Breed (Warhammer 29K)

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[X] Plan: Dire Avengers? More like Dire Jokes. v2
Karugus said:
Yeah, I think I'd be willing to if no one had major objections.
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I'm never going to say no to more needlers. :V

I do feel like that squad would be better at half the size (maybe 4/2 Hflamers/Hneedlers?), just to reduce costs and make it easier to transport them, but I like the plan other than that.

Edit: I know there's a limit on how many of the same type of squad you can have per detachment, but there is still the Elite unit design coming up if we want more Ithilmar squads.
 
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vsh said:
I like this except I think rifle squad should instead be carbine squad. Eldar are best at hip shooting, let's bank on that.
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They can hip fire with heavy armor and Fatecaster Rifles. The armor allows them to carry heavy weaponry like normal long arms and the nature of Fatecasters means that they don't need to aim particularly well while running to land head shots.
 
Skjadir said:
And why is that ?
We have a lot of EP to throw at Detachments and for efficent use there the heavy powerarmor is best.
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Mostly because we can then just redesign and upgrade the armour to make it fully powered and then incorporate extra power assist, conversion shields and more armour plating once this turn ends, so we'll have a cheaper version of the Ithilmar that we can use for our guardians (Basically, the space marine armour to our terminator suits) because as much as I want to, we can't win a war with just ten guys in Ithilmar, we need grunts to hold ground and hide behind them.
 
[X] Plan: Dire Avengers? More like Dire Jokes. v2

This seems like what we need for the near-future. Leans on our strengths while still leaving enough flexibility so it doesn't lead to crippling overspecialization.
 
BigFungus26 said:
Mostly because we can then just redesign and upgrade the armour to make it fully powered and then incorporate extra power assist, conversion shields and more armour plating once this turn ends, so we'll have a cheaper version of the Ithilmar that we can use for our guardians (Basically, the space marine armour to our terminator suits) because as much as I want to, we can't win a war with just ten guys in Ithilmar, we need grunts to hold ground and hide behind them.
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Ep is not what is holding us back.
Its the AP we can spend on the detachments.

Number of people we get is the same, one side is just much better equipped.
And part of the problem is that reequipping costs AP, that is already our bottleneck.

So going well we can just upgrade them later makes it worse, because we will just end up with fewer people actually equipped.
 
Skjadir said:
Ep is not what is holding us back.
Its the AP we can spend on the detachments.

Number of people we get is the same, one side is just much better equipped.
And part of the problem is that reequipping costs AP, that is already our bottleneck.

So going well we can just upgrade them later makes it worse, because we will just end up with fewer people actually equipped.
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With any luck, we'll be able to make our AP problems go away as soon as we get rid of the peaceful modifier we picked in char-gen, and there's a chance that refitting our current suits falls under a bonesinger or steward action instead of a warrior action, and if so, then we don't have to worry.

Except we will upgrade them very soon (next turn most likely and as soon as we get conversion fields) so we won't have to spend much AP (or EP) replacing our gear.

Besides, as much as I dunk on the current suits for not requiring an anti-tank weapon to penetrate, they're flexible and cheap enough for most purposes that I feel comfortable using them, plus they're still leagues better than any Eldar alternatives right now.
 
Something I just realized; we - and the Eldar in general - can go for a "superheavy" composition like giving power armour to everyone because wraithbone does not need maintenance. Once something's made, it'll eat up resources only in the case of an upgrade or repair. No need to reserve manpower for upkeep and no need to keep a sufficient trickle of resources to keep things in tip-top shape. The Eldar have the perfect material for this kind of thing and they are wasting it on what is, by comparison, a T-shirt and jeans combo.

Also, I can't seem to find the number for how much EP a bonesinger AP is worth, but I think people have been mentioning something around the four to five hundred mark? Maybe seven hundred, but either way, the Forge's potential 10 000 EP a turn very well might outstrip the industrial capacity of smaller craftworld if not even match the larger ones less inclined towards industrial development. Considering the fact that bonesingers are needed to put out the fires that are burning the everything in Eldar society, other craftworlds can not just afford to go all in on military production or even set aside a significant chunk of their industrial output for it. Vaul-Vulkesh, meanwhile, can focus its efforts on two additional craftworlds while relying on the Forge to produce vital military gear.

Like, this is not even about raw capacity, capability and resources. The Forge, offering a separate pool of industrial power, effectively heightens the floor for our production ability. Even if everything's gone to shit and every action needs to focus on the hypothetical crisis, the Forge can still be used to cover for us in terms of gear - if it is not used to speed things up, I guess, which is also an amazing benefit. Pretty sure we could get our craftworld back in tip-top shape with it even if we picked worse damage in maybe even just one turn.

Combined with our existing industrial ability, the Vulkhari have hit the ground running while the rest of the Eldar might still be figuring out what is what and why it is important.
 
Karnax626 said:
I do feel like that squad would be better at half the size (maybe 4/2 Hflamers/Hneedlers?), just to reduce costs and make it easier to transport them, but I like the plan other than that.

Edit: I know there's a limit on how many of the same type of squad you can have per detachment, but there is still the Elite unit design coming up if we want more Ithilmar squads.
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I considered that, and I do find it a bit more aesthetically pleasing, but it actually runs into the issue that we can't have more than 3 unit types and troop transports so it actually wouldn't change much about transportation other than the fatecaster squad getting the open top. Regardless, that's a bigger change than I want to randomly force on people who already voted.
Skjadir said:
I think the Heavy Flamer is better for Assault troopers in heavy armor.
If the tabletop weapons mechanics have any influence on the combat, the flamers are pretty much the best weapon you can put on your Assault troops vs pretty much all infantry but very heavy infantry and for that you have the Power Maul on all 12 of them.

Edit: the needler also run into the problem that their preferred ranged is not close range so you run into the problem of 1 half wants to get into melee the other half wants to stay back.
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The Needler is longer ranged, but make no mistake both ranged weapons are secondary to the maul. I see where you're coming from and from a strictly TT perspective, the gratuitousness of 12 Heavy Flamers aside it probably does seem better. But from a somewhat less gamey- perspective, those Needlers are putting out a ton of fire, and most soldiers are not going to wade through oncoming fire, they're going to drop and seek cover. The needlers are there to suppress and pin down an enemy as much as they are to just kill them directly. Someone who's ducking down to avoid the half dozen gatling guns hosing his position down isn't going to be well positioned to deal with the incoming flame throwers or the ensuing melee.

And as a general rule, a high rate of fire weapon is always going to have a niche in close quarters combat. The intent is not to split focus and cause the squad to stand and shoot, it's to advance and suppress and then overrun in a tide of fire and hammers.

Arkio said:
Combined with our existing industrial ability, the Vulkhari have hit the ground running while the rest of the Eldar might still be figuring out what is what and why it is important.
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A Bonesinger AP is worth 480, with all 15 we get 7200. Less than the Forge's two actions. As an industrious, large craft world with a bonesinger tradition and an over average for its size industry- it's likely our industrial output is pretty close to a Major Craftworld before the Forge comes into play.
 
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Karugus said:
The Needler is longer ranged, but make no mistake both ranged weapons are secondary to the maul. I see where you're coming from and from a strictly TT perspective, the gratuitousness of 12 Heavy Flamers aside it probably does seem better. But from a somewhat less gamey- perspective, those Needlers are putting out a ton of fire, and most soldiers are not going to wade through oncoming fire, they're going to drop and seek cover. The needlers are there to suppress and pin down an enemy as much as they are to just kill them directly. Someone who's ducking down to avoid the half dozen gatling guns hosing his position down isn't going to be well positioned to deal with the incoming flame throwers or the ensuing melee.

And as a general rule, a high rate of fire weapon is always going to have a niche in close quarters combat. The intent is not to split focus and cause the squad to stand and shoot, it's to advance and suppress and then overrun in a tide of fire and hammers.
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We are mainly going to fight orks.
Do you really think they will get into cover when shot at instead of rushing at you ?

Edit: Also Heavy flamers are good at roosting any elder that try to rush them to get into melee, for Biel-Tan and the bladestorm nonsense
 
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BigFungus26 said:
With any luck, we'll be able to make our AP problems go away as soon as we get rid of the peaceful modifier we picked in char-gen, and there's a chance that refitting our current suits falls under a bonesinger or steward action instead of a warrior action, and if so, then we don't have to worry.
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I think it's more likely that we get better military organization, which would let us do things like raise multiple detachments with one AP, or use the same AP to refit troops.
Better logistics and organization, rather than actually becoming more warlike.
 
Skjadir said:
We are mainly going to fight orks.
Do you really think they will get into cover when shot at instead of rushing at you ?
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I mean yeah? Monofilament weapons are all about pinning and suppression and are one the best weapons the Craftworlds have against Orks. More importantly, do you really want to waste Power Maul swings against a bunch of shitty sluggas when we can just shoot and burn them. Getting mobbed by GEQs is a waste of this thing's melee potential- and given you can charge from out of range to avoid flamer overwatch iirc, even a strictly TT interpretation is slightly more complicated. I get it, flamethrowers are cool- but 6 heavy flamers is already more than a squad of anything besides burna boys afaik, maybe the sisters of battle have something comparable.

Besides, after the Orks we're dealing with Biel-Tan and we'll absolutely want suppressing fire available for that.

IronFist said:
I think it's more likely that we get better military organization, which would let us do things like raise multiple detachments with one AP, or use the same AP to refit troops.
Better logistics and organization, rather than actually becoming more warlike.
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The various AP seem to be tied to cultural institutions, so I would definitely expect becoming a more militaristic society would increase our ability to raise and train new formations. That just seems kinda obvious.
 
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Karugus said:
I mean yeah? Monofilament weapons are all about pinning and suppression and are one the best weapons the Craftworlds have against Orks. More importantly, do you really want to waste Power Maul swings against a bunch of shitty sluggas when we can just shoot and burn them. I get it, flamethrowers are cool- but 6 heavy flamers is already more in a squad of anything besides burna boys afaik, maybe the sisters of battle have something comparable.

Besides, after the Orks we're dealing with Biel-Tan and we'll absolutely want suppressing fire available for that.
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The flamers are likely to be even better against Biel-tans assault troops than against the Orks.

Because they also like to rush into melee (going by what we started with for professional units when it comes to assault units), are less armored/can't take a hit and Flamers pretty much fuck them even if they slap holo-fields on these units.
 
Karugus said:
I considered that, and I do find it a bit more aesthetically pleasing, but it actually runs into the issue that we can't have more than 3 unit types and troop transports so it actually wouldn't change much about transportation other than the fatecaster squad getting the open top. Regardless, that's a bigger change than I want to randomly force on people who already voted.
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That's not how I read it? It says no more than 3 of any given unit, which tobme means we can just design two different type of infantry transport when the vehicle vote comes up, and be able to take 3 of each per detachment.
Mechanis said:
In addition, no more than three of any given unit should be present in a given Detachment,
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Skjadir said:
The flamers are likely to be even better against Biel-tans assault troops than against the Orks.

Because they also like to rush into melee (going by what we started with for professional units), are less armored/can't take a hit and Flamers pretty much fuck them even if they slap holo-fields on these units.
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You forget that a long enough charge can bypass a flamer overwatch (it's been a while since I've watched a batrep, particularly where this came up so I could be wrong) And more likely than not Biel-Tan is going to try and avoid and outmaneuver our Forgefires rather than charge right into them. And then there's the risk of getting charged by multiple units at once and our overwatch getting eaten ruining only one of them.
Karnax626 said:
That's not how I read it? It says no more than 3 of any given unit, which tobme means we can just design two different type of infantry transport when the vehicle vote comes up, and be able to take 3 of each per detachment.
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We could, but that means we don't get to fix any other oversigh with vehicles this turn.
 
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IronFist said:
I might be going off outdated information... but by my estimation, a Lascannon is something appropriate to kill vehicles like a Dreadnought, and a Starblaster is only slightly weaker, with a much higher ROF. It should work just as well. (Lascannons were S9, i'm guessing Starblasters are S8, Dreadnoughts had AV12. I'd prefer 3 S8 shots over 1 S9 one)
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The Starcarver has twice the power of a Lascannon and a RoF described as "kill a squad of MEQ in seconds". That's enough to solo a dreadnought on its own.

A lascannon shot will hurt a dreadnought, but it needs several to take down typically. Like half a dozen to be reasonably sure to take it down in one turn. Now, with 11/12 Starblaster Rifles in a squad, it's absolutely overkill, but it's not 1v1. :V

Karugus said:
Yeah, I think I'd be willing to if no one had major objections.
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And vote added.
 
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Karugus said:
The various AP seem to be tied to cultural institutions, so I would definitely expect becoming a more militaristic society would increase our ability to raise and train new formations. That just seems kinda obvious.
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We're going to get a better military due to necessity, but that's not the same as losing the peaceful trait.

Culturally, we don't like fighting, but that doesn't make us bad at it. Joining the military would be seen as a necessary duty, rather than a desirable profession.
inirlan said:
The Starcarver has twice the power of a Lascannon and a RoF described as "kill a squad of MEQ in seconds". That's enough to solo a dreadnought on its own.
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I got those mixed up with Starblades, somehow.
 
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