I feel like we've committed to using the golden age storage mechanism for our initial prototype and we should stick to the bit when it comes to leyline based stones. It'll take longer to rebuild the network, sure, but dirt-cheap riverine waystones would let us cover the majority of the population while that happens.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
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- Tags
- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Boney, are the majority of the Empire's waystones inactive?
I definitely like the Spirit riverine option a lot more than the Jade option. I think negotiating with spirits is more engaging.
Boney probably would have mentioned if tributaries would create more dhar with riverine leylines. I could see the spirit picking up the energy for the tributaries but I don't know how it avoids being turned into dhar with the other two methods. The winds just float through the water, while the dhar is sent underground, which is also where the Belthani tributaries send the energies they pick up.
It's a hell of a lot more interesting than the bare minimum. I don't think that the Stone Flowers are that much of a bottleneck, though I guess they might be. There are High Elf mages who can do High Magic. It's not just archmages. Most of the time the runic inductor should be fine. It only creates a lot of dhar when there are a bunch of Winds around. I'm skeptical about how much Runesmiths would work to Rune what you seem to be framing as a temporary solution until the Proper way is accomplished.
I definitely like the Spirit riverine option a lot more than the Jade option. I think negotiating with spirits is more engaging.
Oh, I'm sorry. The initial comment of mine that you responded to was talking about trying to drain dhar bombs off from isolated chunks of the network that are near rivers. That is places that we can easily get to, but can't easily reconnect to the network. Keyphrase waystones need to be built sequentially starting off from the closest connection to the network.
I wasn't aware of that. Still, you could have quoted the source better. I was saying there wasn't anything that said they could be stuck at any point on the river. (Edit: I think that's what I was saying. I'm rereading the paragraph and it really wasn't all that clear what I was trying to get across. Apologies spiritualatheist.)
Boney probably would have mentioned if tributaries would create more dhar with riverine leylines. I could see the spirit picking up the energy for the tributaries but I don't know how it avoids being turned into dhar with the other two methods. The winds just float through the water, while the dhar is sent underground, which is also where the Belthani tributaries send the energies they pick up.
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[X] Plan: Mass leyline
-[X] [CAPSTONE] Collegiate Fascis
-[X] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[X] [STORAGE] Reverse-engineered
-[X] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[X] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline
Idk about others but i really don't appreciate the high magic requirements, that seems like kind of a huge potential bottleneck.
-[X] [CAPSTONE] Collegiate Fascis
-[X] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[X] [STORAGE] Reverse-engineered
-[X] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[X] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline
Idk about others but i really don't appreciate the high magic requirements, that seems like kind of a huge potential bottleneck.
The stone flowers aren't a bottleneck now, but ideally we'll be reducing the complexity of the reverse engineered storage mechanism enough that ordinary High Mages can do it, at which point high mages would be in more demand. Plus, we'd already have a Runesmith on the project anyway, and doing two simple tasks isn't much harder than doing one. And the Runic Inductor should be alright in a storageless design, because there's no way for Dhar to actually build up at the waystone itself. As long as we have robust enough downstream infrastructure we'd be fine.
As for the Runesmith Issue, I don't really thing of these as temporary? Ideally they'd become relatively less important over time as the rest of the network is rebuilt, but it's not like the dwarves have a particular objection to redundant infrastructur, lol.
I also like the idea of using a clockwork foundation for these—being on rivers means that a millrace removes the need for maintenance and the lack of storage means that sabotage isn't nearly as attractive or as bad if it does happen. That would let us do an all-wind leyline stone and have completely separate personnel bottlenecks, which would further increase the speed we can put these things up.
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Doing anything with nexuses beyond reclaiming them or turning them back on is beyond the scope of the Project given what Boney's said before.
But we are examining the KA network this turn. We would hopefully find a way to feed more energy to the KA nexuses. Find a way to make waystones more palatable for dwarves, given that they're inherently suspicious of external infrastructure.
Mill waystones do sound really fun. The moving parts probably *would* require maintenance every so often, but sending a clockmaker or engineer out along the river every few years to check on them is probably less trouble than getting an enchanter. I'm down for clockwork on pure river waystones lol.
- Location
- New Zealand
Probably due to the chaos gate hidden inside the depths of the mountain range. That is almost certainly the reason why the secessionist dwarves didn't just abandon it, but also destroyed every single written record of anything in it that they had, even including their book of grudges.
Maybe we can integrate them into the smaller outposts they tend to put up around the karaks? If nothing else, putting a waystone on the peak of a young hold and chaining it back to the dwarven network sounds... doable at least, even if we don't figure out full mountain waystones.
I figure if we pop down 10 or so waystones in a new hold and link them all up to an old hold nexus, then that would be equivalent to a nexus in a new hold.
Might be we can sell some of the empire's network's magical generation to the dwarves as well at some point, if we figure out how to connect them up. Would let the dwarves get some of their ancient superweapons back and let us potentially get some greater technological secrets from the engineering guild.
It removes the need for winding, not for maintenance. Moving parts need maintenance. They need to be oiled and greased; they wear and need to be replaced; and if you have bits sticking out so it can be water powered, debris needs to be removed and bits repaired as they're damaged.
All of that is a huge compromise over the old waystones. Even worse, it's an unnecessary one -- the Grey Lord option can be made by any sufficiently competent Winds-based enchanter. Yes, it's "moderately difficult", but there's enough Winds-based enchanters around that shouldn't be a bottleneck unless you're talking about a completely Winds-based design, and even then the Hysh option would still be better.
It's a fun concept, isn't it?
That's just not how the option was presented:
A millrace is clearly presented as an alternative to onerous maintenance requirements. I still expect you'd need to send someone through to take a look at things every so often, but having hiring a couple of clockmakers to make the rounds every year is trivial, and more ordinary maintenance probably falls below the level of abstraction.
That said, if we just want to put these up fast I think the collegiate option might also be a good idea. The problem with it is that Waystones create Dhar if they need to to send along leylines, but a purely river-based stone wouldn't do that because it doesn't need to, eliminating a lot of the political difficulties.
edit: @Boney, am I correct that riverine waystones don't need to create Dhar? Would that defuse the political issues of using the Collegiate foundation?
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I like clockwork for boat waystones, as we can bring the waystone to the clockmaker, rather than vice versa.
A one-year maintenance cycle is in no way "trivial". Even if good design and construction stretched that out to the scale of decades, it would be totally unacceptable. Even if time-before-failure was stretched out to the scale of centuries, the consequences would be catastrophic when they started failing.
The old waystones have been around for millennia, and that's what they're going to be compared to. Even if you're willing to accept the embarrassment of designing something that compares so unfavorably to the ancient design and mandate a regular maintenance schedule, there are many ways such a schedule can get interrupted. Beast tides, Waaghs, famines, plagues, civil wars, corrupt nobles, Skaven shenanigans, etc. Records get lost, people forget why they were supposed to be maintained, towns get abandoned.
Assuming that this is the nadir of the control and organization the forces of Order can exert and from here on out things get better and continue to stay better and there's never a large-scale breakdown in civil order is a terrible bet. Not only that, but once such things happen, then the waystones also start failing which turns things from a mere disaster into a catastrophe.
[X] Plan Near-Original+
[X] Plan Building A Better Future (With reverse engineering)
Near-Original+ has the reverse engineering and a Spirit Riverine, if you are interested?
[X] Plan Building A Better Future (With reverse engineering)
Near-Original+ has the reverse engineering and a Spirit Riverine, if you are interested?
- Location
- Washington
Well of course.
The nadir was shortly before 200 years ago, not right NOW.
Tributaries are entirely passive. It's set up so that the path of least resistance for the magic is into a Waystone, and then it becomes more effective over time as that flow creates a self-reinforcing magic-conductive path.
No.
Yes.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Really wish that someone had come up with that earlier so we could have bought something else besides cooperation. As is sunk cost says we have to use what we paid so much for.
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- Location
- Probably one of the continents.
We can design additional kinds of waystones and so long as we don't overlap the different production bottlenecks we can actually produce more by having multiple types to make
- Location
- somewhere over there.
- Pronouns
- They/It
I'd argue that making waystones something to do upkeep on is itself a way to ensure that their purpose and importance is remembered. It becomes something like an oral history, which in the real world are actually incredibly resilient ways to record a culture's past. I don't think that all waystones should require that maintenance, but I think having them all be fire and forget solutions is more prone to allowing humans especially to forget how important they are down the line. Involving everyday people in the upkeep helps remind them that the upkeep is needed, and that the thing itself has value. It would be remembered in the same way that you don't forget how to farm.
And if taken in concert with more durable and maintenance free waystone models, I think it makes the network as a whole more durable to cultural or societal calamity. There are certain events that might make people stop doing maintenance, like there not being people there anymore, or them being conquered or marginalized like the hedgewise were. I think the passage of time alone can make people forget the value of the independently operating waystones, like some people have in canon. Most importantly, I think there are fewer things that could make people forget the importance of both kinds. And most events that lead to that scale of problem involve things like orcs, chaos, the skaven, or the dark elves achieving dominance over most of the old world.
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There's not really a lot of meat there. Those responsible for the spread of information have already punished themselves as much as anyone could possibly be punished, and Karak Vlag is extremely unapologetic about everything it did to survive and get all 'molon labe' about it if outsiders start trying to get them to wind it back.
I've read parts of The Old World rulebook! It has a timeline of Cathay, fascinating new retcons, and new Kislev.
The most irritating retcon is that they renamed Malekith to Malerion. Yay. Joy. I admit that is extremely petty of me though.
)
Ironically the overlap will probably be greater at first if we can't get Ulthuan on board with making components. The number of Eonir enchanters who know High Magic that Laurelorn can provide probably includes at least a few Archmages. Though I would assume not all archmages are on the list. Most of them might know high magic, but the enchantment's simple enough it might be difficult to get them to spend their time on it.
Though Ulthuan is still the best source for Archmages.
I don't think Dwarfs would consider this redundant infrastructure. Using both leylines provide redundancy. Redundant infrastructure would be if we lined every riverbank in the Empire with riverine leylines. I don't think you're suggesting we literally line all of it with waystones. I just don't want to spend that effort. Especially because a lot of those areas will already be covered.
Or you could make a direct comparison to the Watchtowers in Mad Dog Pass. Though the closest full-Karaks for those are held by enemies.
The most irritating retcon is that they renamed Malekith to Malerion. Yay. Joy. I admit that is extremely petty of me though.
The other is that they said Finubar was Phoenix King in 2001 IC, when he journeyed the Old World and reestablished contact with dwarfs, Bretonnia, and the Empire. I'm curious how Alarielle's birth is going to be shifted around. I was slightly concerned by the fact that the description of Aenarion's marriage to Astarielle was "Aenarion marries Astarielle, making her his Everqueen." That was in the timeline, so it might not mean anything, but it would be annoying if they retconned the Everqueen to be attached to the Phoenix King.
It also said that the fortresses on the coasts of the Old World are new efforts done at Finubar's behest to reduce Ulthuan's isolationism.
The Dwarf colonization timeline seemed a bit altered. It suggested that Dwarfs colonized all the way to the Pale Sisters during the time of the Ancestor Gods. There was also something else saying that Grungni was the first dwarf. I also didn't see a mention that Grimnir was married to Valaya, it was just Grungni. Grimnir was mentioned to be kin to them though. The timeline also mentions that the Zorn Uzkul were actually settled in -4300 IC.
We also have a timeline for Cathay now! The Celestial Dragon Emperor didn't like the Old Ones, but rather he saw other dragons fight them and got annihilated. Instead he learned magic from them. Apparently Chaos tried to get him to join them, but he determined it sucked and decided to hit the bricks. It claims he saw the humans living in "his" lands and felt that he had a duty to protect them. Starting in -5700 IC he took human form, began to rule over the humans, and had his nine children with the ME. In -3000 IC he proclaimed himself Emperor and named his empire Grand Cathay. Apparently life sucked to the north and west of Cathay, so "thousands of human tribes" migrated to the newborn empire. In -2750 IC the CDE had the tremendous idea to solve his Ogre Problem by NUKING IT with an asteroid. Problem is, his astromancers summoned the Great Maw. Then he started construction on the Great Bastion in -1800 IC. Two centuries prior to the events of the game (2276) the Dragon Emperor and the Moon Empress dissapeared, though it doesn't seem like open war broke out just yet. But there has been a general breakdown in order.
Unsurprisingly perhaps Cathay is "by far the most populous human nation in the world." As you might guess, it is beset on all sides, but AS ALWAYS the greatest threat is the armies of chaos to the north.
It retconned the Ungols being the native inhabitants of Kislev. Instead they joined the Gospodars in conquering it. (Edit: Nevermind, the timeline says one thing, and the Kislev lore page says another, classic. The timeline says the Ungols were driven back by the Gospodar. The lore blurb says that the Ungols and Gospodar drove back the natives of Kislev and doing that created Kislev, so it technically could be read in a way that doesn't contradict.) Though it was still Miska who lead the conquest of Kislev itself. But Kislev is also BIG. Was big before the Great War against Chaos. The Old World says that Kislev had an empire stretching all the way to Grand Cathay. It says they had three cities out there. The east-most was Kharakoru. West of that, near the Floating Mountain, lies Rasputia, the Crossroads of the World. The western most city is Za-something, I can't tell. It's on the Skull Road. Though it still seems like the center of Kislev is Kislev proper. Kislev City, Praag, and Erengrad. The monarch at the time was Tzarina Mishenka.
It also said that the fortresses on the coasts of the Old World are new efforts done at Finubar's behest to reduce Ulthuan's isolationism.
The Dwarf colonization timeline seemed a bit altered. It suggested that Dwarfs colonized all the way to the Pale Sisters during the time of the Ancestor Gods. There was also something else saying that Grungni was the first dwarf. I also didn't see a mention that Grimnir was married to Valaya, it was just Grungni. Grimnir was mentioned to be kin to them though. The timeline also mentions that the Zorn Uzkul were actually settled in -4300 IC.
We also have a timeline for Cathay now! The Celestial Dragon Emperor didn't like the Old Ones, but rather he saw other dragons fight them and got annihilated. Instead he learned magic from them. Apparently Chaos tried to get him to join them, but he determined it sucked and decided to hit the bricks. It claims he saw the humans living in "his" lands and felt that he had a duty to protect them. Starting in -5700 IC he took human form, began to rule over the humans, and had his nine children with the ME. In -3000 IC he proclaimed himself Emperor and named his empire Grand Cathay. Apparently life sucked to the north and west of Cathay, so "thousands of human tribes" migrated to the newborn empire. In -2750 IC the CDE had the tremendous idea to solve his Ogre Problem by NUKING IT with an asteroid. Problem is, his astromancers summoned the Great Maw. Then he started construction on the Great Bastion in -1800 IC. Two centuries prior to the events of the game (2276) the Dragon Emperor and the Moon Empress dissapeared, though it doesn't seem like open war broke out just yet. But there has been a general breakdown in order.
Unsurprisingly perhaps Cathay is "by far the most populous human nation in the world." As you might guess, it is beset on all sides, but AS ALWAYS the greatest threat is the armies of chaos to the north.
It retconned the Ungols being the native inhabitants of Kislev. Instead they joined the Gospodars in conquering it. (Edit: Nevermind, the timeline says one thing, and the Kislev lore page says another, classic. The timeline says the Ungols were driven back by the Gospodar. The lore blurb says that the Ungols and Gospodar drove back the natives of Kislev and doing that created Kislev, so it technically could be read in a way that doesn't contradict.) Though it was still Miska who lead the conquest of Kislev itself. But Kislev is also BIG. Was big before the Great War against Chaos. The Old World says that Kislev had an empire stretching all the way to Grand Cathay. It says they had three cities out there. The east-most was Kharakoru. West of that, near the Floating Mountain, lies Rasputia, the Crossroads of the World. The western most city is Za-something, I can't tell. It's on the Skull Road. Though it still seems like the center of Kislev is Kislev proper. Kislev City, Praag, and Erengrad. The monarch at the time was Tzarina Mishenka.
You don't need to know high magic to create the Golden Age storage mechanism. That's why Von Tarnus would have been option to make it if there wasn't the slight inconvenience of him being dead. (a only temporary problem, I am sure
)Ironically the overlap will probably be greater at first if we can't get Ulthuan on board with making components. The number of Eonir enchanters who know High Magic that Laurelorn can provide probably includes at least a few Archmages. Though I would assume not all archmages are on the list. Most of them might know high magic, but the enchantment's simple enough it might be difficult to get them to spend their time on it.
Though Ulthuan is still the best source for Archmages.
I don't think Dwarfs would consider this redundant infrastructure. Using both leylines provide redundancy. Redundant infrastructure would be if we lined every riverbank in the Empire with riverine leylines. I don't think you're suggesting we literally line all of it with waystones. I just don't want to spend that effort. Especially because a lot of those areas will already be covered.
I like that idea. There's a bunch of smaller Karaks and Karags that could get waystones and probably wouldn't need nexuses. You could link them to the major Karaks. I don't actually know about any smaller Karaks in the World's Edge. But something like the equivalent of Karak Gantuk could be linked to the equivalent of Karak Hirn.
Or you could make a direct comparison to the Watchtowers in Mad Dog Pass. Though the closest full-Karaks for those are held by enemies.
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Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
As far as I'm aware, the only mention in the past 20 years of Valaya being married to both Grimnir and Grungni is the 4e core book.
Usually it's more of a 'Grungni was married to Valaya, and Grimnir was also there'.
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