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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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[X] Yes
-[X] Find a way to subtly honor Ranald and Halétha in the final copy of the Accords.

I should've voted earlier, but w/e. I think Mathilde is plenty capable of doing this in a way that's subtle and tasteful. And given how this document is a multiple-nation commitment to reject Chaos, I think these two really do deserve a (symbolic) seat at the table.
 
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
The first is true...the second depends on which Warhammer books you're reading. Per the Wood Elves army book for 8th Ed. for instance their Dark Magic users are very carefully managed so that they don't succumb to madness but can still use their magic (specifically, they're paired with a High Magic user to bleed off the Winds if there start to be problems). Since adopting that policy, they've had no problems with their Dark Magic users.

Whether that's canonical for this Quest or anything else is highly debatable, of course, but saying that Dark Magic requires being a megalomaniacal sociopath rather than simply being very dangerous and likely to lead to that without extensive precautions is not a sure thing either.

Which doesn't mean the Asur use it (they most assuredly do not), but seemed worth mentioning.
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You're right, that rings a bell. I imagine that elves would be less vulnerable to the corruptive aspect of Dhar, and could use it with reason without automatically turning into madmen.
 
K von Carstein said:
You're right, that rings a bell. I imagine that elves would be less vulnerable to the corruptive aspect of Dhar, and could use it with reason without automatically turning into madmen.
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It's notable that even then and with that interpretation, they take extensive precautions, effectively having someone there to prevent Dhar actually getting into their soul via High Magic. But those precautions do also seem to actually work.
 
[X] No
-[X] Specify why:
--[X] Add another clause, inserted before the currently final Clause 8:
--[X] A Clause pushing for some commitment between signatories to maintain participation in a forum where waystone information can be shared. The commitment doesn't have to be as in-depth as the current Waystone Project, but it should basically act as a backstop to make it easier to create a "Waystone Project 2.0" if the need arises once again some centuries down the line, and reduce the chances of the project falling apart if Mathilde gets killed in the near future. Having a diplomatic line open should reduce the chances of hostilities between parties, too.
--[X] Have the clauses be denoted with Classical numbering, such that the final Clause is denoted with an "IX".
 
[X] Yes
-[X] Find a way to subtly honor Ranald and Halétha in the final copy of the Accords.
 
[X] No
-[X] Specify why:
--[X] Add another clause, inserted before the currently final Clause 8:
--[X] A Clause pushing for some commitment between signatories to maintain participation in a forum where waystone information can be shared. The commitment doesn't have to be as in-depth as the current Waystone Project, but it should basically act as a backstop to make it easier to create a "Waystone Project 2.0" if the need arises once again some centuries down the line, and reduce the chances of the project falling apart if Mathilde gets killed in the near future. Having a diplomatic line open should reduce the chances of hostilities between parties, too.
--[X] Have the clauses be denoted with Classical numbering, such that the final Clause is denoted with an "IX".

Been off for family stuff. The vote seems fairly settled on "Yes", which is kinda expected given objections will be fragmented. It's fine, though. The treaty as written works, even if there's wiggle room for it to be better.
 
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@Boney unrelated to current discussion, how Lost To The Ages/rare/extinct is wutroth? because I was doing a reread and connected two data points in my mind
Boney said:
"Every day, someone with fire instead of hair or surrounded by birds or a skull instead of a face wanders in and drops off a Vampire skull or the head of some forest mutant or a cartload of bones and I say thank you and they act like I've thrown a party and named my firstborn after them, and they go off to find something even worse to drag back! Look what they did to my table!"

You consider the small sapling protruding from the wood of the table, its small green leaves stretching towards the window. "I see."
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Boney said:
The Vault of Ancestors proves to be an equal disappointment, as you were hoping for ancient Runic weapons and instead found it full of furniture that was antique before the Karak fell, and though you understand that this 'wutroth' is important to the Dwarves you can't really match the excitement of your fellow councillors over carpentry.
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Panorama is presumably Around And Available, so how much value would there be in her making all the old wutroth furniture start sprouting cuttings? As always, "I'm not answer ing that" is a valid response
 
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DocMatoi said:
@Boney unrelated to current discussion, how Lost To The Ages/rare/extinct is wutroth? because I was doing a reread and connected two data points in my mind



Panorama is presumably Around And Available, so how much value would there be in her making all the old wutroth furniture start sprouting cuttings? As always, "I'm not answer ing that" is a valid response
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From the Word of QM threadmark:
Boney said:
Wutroth
Dwarves have been trying and failing to restore their Wutroth groves for millennia. A Jade Wizard might have an advantage, but the trees grow extremely slow and part of their growth cycle is having their outer bark worn smooth by high-altitude winds, so it can't be accelerated. So it would take their entire life to try once.
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DocMatoi said:
@Boney unrelated to current discussion, how Lost To The Ages/rare/extinct is wutroth? because I was doing a reread and connected two data points in my mind



Panorama is presumably Around And Available, so how much value would there be in her making all the old wutroth furniture start sprouting cuttings? As always, "I'm not answer ing that" is a valid response
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From the WoQMs for FAQs informational threadmark:
Boney said:
Wutroth
Dwarves have been trying and failing to restore their Wutroth groves for millennia. A Jade Wizard might have an advantage, but the trees grow extremely slow and part of their growth cycle is having their outer bark worn smooth by high-altitude winds, so it can't be accelerated. So it would take their entire life to try once.
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Edit: Weber'd.
 
mathymancer said:
Carving is the one we actually developed when we took the Rune research action - it's just carving the shape (in some 'correct' manner, which apparently requires some knowledge of magic theory but is very very simple) and inlaying it with the right materials (Waystone gold is probably best, silver works fine). Thorek did mention that Runesmiths techniques were used to improve the effect of the Waystone Rune and we're obviously not using those so there's probably some room for improvement, but we don't have much of an indication that carving is all that bad and in any case the other options are completely untested:

So here's the thing - my read is that Eltharion wants a recipe, not to buy literal physical Waystones. I might be reading too much into his word choices but he talks about what Mathilde developed being "taught". As I understand it he's concerned about being able to do emergency repairs on the network, and if the solutions require supplies purchased from across the ocean that seems to be kind of a huge problem. I guess you can say that they'll just purchase a boat load of clockwork mechanisem and store them somewhere, but that has problems of its own (maintenance, for one).

The Lights have some magics that move Dhar around without sending them to the pyre:

Of course, the Asur are probably just going to use dark magic.
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I missed Boney explaining what the rune options are, thanks for pointing that out. We're only making a prototype next turn. It shouldn't matter if we have it perfected or not. Still would be a good idea to experiment with options soon.

I am aware that Eltharion wants a recipe. Ulthuan has been buying dwarf clockwork machines from Tilea for centuries at this point. It would be trivial for them to buy that single component. Eltharion told Mathilde that building waystones was something that required expert labor and strongly hinted it was something Ulthuan found difficult to spare. Buying dwarf clockwork is about as non-magic expert labor as you can get. It might make more time to acquire overall, but the people you need to do that work is different. Grom attacked Ulthuan sixty-five years ago. The timespan that the Waystone Network works on is long enough that however long it takes to get Dwarf clockwork, it would not make much of a difference at all.

I was aware of Jovi's cantrips. I was talking about storage (Edit: I was mostly thinking of Material storage, and just lumped the other two in there). Ulthuan wouldn't use dark magic for storage. That would defeat the point of making the winds accessible for later use. They would use whatever component we used for a theoretical Ulthuan-waystone. Additionally, I'm guessing that Ulthuan lost the original storage enchantment and had to cobble a replacement together. Eltharion described waystones as a "Sapherian masterpeice." We know that waystones were mass-produced and deployed over several continents. It seems to have been the single most complicated aspect of the waystones, so it makes the most sense if that is what they lost and what makes it so much more difficult for them to deploy waystones.
 
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[X] No
-[X] Specify why:
--[X] Add another clause, inserted before the currently final Clause 8:
--[X] A Clause pushing for some commitment between signatories to maintain participation in a forum where waystone information can be shared. The commitment doesn't have to be as in-depth as the current Waystone Project, but it should basically act as a backstop to make it easier to create a "Waystone Project 2.0" if the need arises once again some centuries down the line, and reduce the chances of the project falling apart if Mathilde gets killed in the near future. Having a diplomatic line open should reduce the chances of hostilities between parties, too.
--[X] Have the clauses be denoted with Classical numbering, such that the final Clause is denoted with an "IX".

I don't care about shoving Ranald in but this is the leading 'No' so eh. Does anyone have a write in for the modification of the clause requiring unanimous consent to add member nations that was being discussed?
 
DragonParadox said:
I suspect that an Asur Dark mage is even more rare than a High Magic user, to use it safely you need the same kind of in depth skill only for the path that is not culturally acceptable. I know Sarvoi has some understating of Dhar and he can even use it, but he is a magic nerd, a theoretical researcher, I do not think many lay-elves in Laurelorn or Ulthuan have even that much skill.
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You will also note that according to GM when we took that river leyline action Mathilde was biting her lip so she would not correct him. That shows how little even he knows.

Than again Mathilde knows a lot about Dhar so I am not sure where that bar is set exactly. Might be wrong.
 
Verdom said:
[X] No
-[X] Specify why:
--[X] Add another clause, inserted before the currently final Clause 8:
--[X] A Clause pushing for some commitment between signatories to maintain participation in a forum where waystone information can be shared. The commitment doesn't have to be as in-depth as the current Waystone Project, but it should basically act as a backstop to make it easier to create a "Waystone Project 2.0" if the need arises once again some centuries down the line, and reduce the chances of the project falling apart if Mathilde gets killed in the near future. Having a diplomatic line open should reduce the chances of hostilities between parties, too.
--[X] Have the clauses be denoted with Classical numbering, such that the final Clause is denoted with an "IX".

I don't care about shoving Ranald in but this is the leading 'No' so eh. Does anyone have a write in for the modification of the clause requiring unanimous consent to add member nations that was being discussed?
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Modified how? With the way sovereign nations work there isn't really a work around. I mean say a nation gets in by majority vote, the people not in the majority can just denounce the treaty. Unanimity is just formalizing the power that signatories already have and making sure the treaty cannot be destroyed by infighting and birksmasnhip.

Non-unanimous systems can exist only in cases where just leaving comes at significant cost to the members and we are nowhere near there, this treaty does not even have an enforcement mechanism.
 
Boney said:
Doing so openly would be problematic, as every nation contributed two gods: the foremost god and the most applicable god. Breaking with that to bump off Sigmar or Verena would be very blatant and would make a lot of enemies. But if you can think of a sneaky way to get him in there, you absolutely can vote to do so.
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Considering what the three of them are the Gods of I think Verena would be more pissed of about sneaking our Boy on to the document then Sig would be.

Omegahugger said:
Well, I wasn't…

I was salivating at the prospect of tapping into a waystone alone, just think of all the good Mathilde could do with unbridled access to the power of the Vortex itself!
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Caledor Dragontamer- " You are 5,000 years to young to mess with me and my spell human"

Is what would happen if we tried that.
Garlak said:
Isn't the first clause already covered by this --

And isn't the second clause already covered by this

?

There doesn't need to be clauses for this, because it's either a matter of "We are either already doing this as part of one of the clauses" or "This becomes a matter of diplomacy between nations, stuff that is driven and done by the nations and diplomats."

Both the addition -- or the removal, in case some nation really shits the bed (or, well... dies, in a grim scenario) -- of a signatory is something that is the domain of the sovereigns or the diplomats.


Also, trying to make the Accords take into account something that might happen centuries down the line? That's a bad idea.

This isn't a nation's constitution or set of laws we are drafting here -- and even constitutions change over time -- this is, again, a diplomatic agreement between nations.

You can't expect this to be set in stone for centuries.

And also, if the Accords or the nations want to add or change stuff to the Accords over the centuries, then they'll do that if or when or as it comes up. It doesn't need to be in the Accords to begin with. It shouldn't be in the Accords to begin with. These are sovereign nations, not parts-of-nations or sub-nations. Don't try to do an end-run around sovereignty or the diplomats.

Also... not sure if it's even necessary, as it comes to the first clause?

"and reduce the chances of the project falling apart if Mathilde gets killed in the near future. Having a diplomatic line open should reduce the chances of hostilities between parties, too."

If Mathilde getting killed would scupper the project, then it'll scupper the project regardless of this additional clause or not. If it won't, it won't.

And "having diplomatic lines open" is already something at least some of the nations involved already have; Kislev with the Empire, and the Empire with the Karaz Ankor. Ulthuan somewhat with the others too. The presence of the accord are already a diplomatic line!


Don't try to sneak the beginning of an entire United Nations or League of Nations into this. This should be an accord for the Waystone Project. It should not be a carte blanche to be as ambitious as possible about politics and the governing or diplomacy of the nations involved.

Just focus on our job and goal. Getting waystones and getting support for them. Not forcing everybody to start forming a League of Nations or something. If the Old World wants to form the Justice League, it can start doing so decades after, on its own initiative, not because of an attempt to lay the seeds for such at what was supposed to be a magical research project for draining away and protecting against magics.

Don't try to add clauses just to make it X clauses either.

Please do not overcomplicate things, or compel the nations involved to more duties -- or empty duties or clauses that serve no real point -- just for a neat personal religious coup.
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I get where your coming from but the fact that we are dealings with this issue with such a small and Ad-hoc group of people is kind of a issue if we want to make this thing really count on a large scale. Plus having a few basic structural rules set down will help prevent conflict between the Elves and the dwarfs for example if their aren't any humans around to act as a kind buffer between the two Elder Races.
 
[X] Yes
-[X] Find a way to subtly honor Ranald and Halétha in the final copy of the Accords.
 
Tomcost said:
Allright. We really need to go for the Elfcation after next turn. We are finishing a damned lot of things, like AV and a proper Waystone. Now we need to take the Elfcation and leave a cleaner To Do checklist.
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The Nagarythe trip also has the advantage that if we do it with the Protector around the same time Yvresse starts rolling out our Waystones, we can hopefully get more-than-minimal reciprocity from Ulthuan.
Boney said:
Eltharion has outright said that should Ulthuan receive what he seeks through this line, he will ensure that Ulthuan will reciprocate in the form of the details on how to connect new Waystones directly to the existing network. You would hopefully be able to get more than that if the right people in Ulthuan are feeling cooperative, but Eltharion has promised that as an absolute minimum.
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I would like to exert every iota of effort to ensure that "the right people in Ulthuan are feeling cooperative" when it comes time to pony up. If that means we have to go on an interlude of kickass adventures for three months fighting slavers and raiders and learning from other people who marry Ulgu and the blade into a style of deadly magical skirmishing, oh well, these are the sacrifices we have to make.
 
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