Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[Travler66]

[X] Yes

 

[Robotninja]

[x] Yes

 

[Somic]

Nah, Ranald is definitely a God of conmen among other things, and they're anything but nice. Sure, you can't spurn any of His faces if you worship Him, so even the thiefiest thieves and liariest liars gotta have at least a little respect for the Protector, but there's still a lot of chaotic selfish stuff they can get up to without crossing the line into tyranny (hell, even ruling over peasants and taking their taxes purely for personal enrichment is fine apparently), and that's not even getting into the kind of nastiness Ranaldites are allowed to do, and fanatical Ranaldites sometimes do religiously, to Acceptable Targets (tm).

Let's really not sanitize Him, okay? We main the Protector, that's something Boney has mentioned (and something Heidi doesn't really get), our relationship with Him is shaped by our own biases (remember what kinda person Mathilde is) and focused on the nicest aspect of Him in the least violent interpretation of it.

 

[me.me.here]

Are there any conjunctive symbols that look like an X? Because having a symbol of Ranald linking all the pieces together would be very fitting.

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There is, yes - the ampersand is basically a stylized cross.

Which makes the current idea of adding in clauses and giving them classical numerals seem very clunky and awkward to me as opposed to just doing a simple find and replace of 'Sigmar and Verena' with 'Sigmar & Verena' and then maybe having a quiet word with the scribe about the specifics of the character in question.

 

[xamaplak]

I've mentioned this before, but Tome of Salvation classifies 'thinking you have a close, personal relationship with a god' as an extreme of faith, from which fanatics/zealots spring.



Mathilde Weber, Ranald Fanatic: "Yeah, Ranald's my oldest and most annoying friend. Hmm? No, I've never personally met him. Oh, but I did get a letter from him once. He gave me some very good advice."

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From that it kind-of seems like most Ranaldians we've actually talked with are hardcore fanatics? Granted, we've got a pretty small sample size of us, Heidi the Divine-magic-wielder, Wolf and Heideck the actual priests, a couple of card sharks who got nudged away from being priests at our temple, and possibly the dude we had running the Stirland watch for us, with only the last not havinga nudge or some other shown or impliedcontact from Ranald..

So I guess that it's natural that a group of mostly priests and priest-adjacent people would be hardcore fanatics, though it's also possible that as the god of "screw the rules I've got (your) money" Ranald is more talkative than other gods?

 

[reignonyrparade]

From that it kind-of seems like most Ranaldians we've actually talked with are hardcore fanatics? Granted, we've got a pretty small sample size of us, Heidi the Divine-magic-wielder, Wolf and Heideck the actual priests, a couple of card sharks who got nudged away from being priests at our temple, and possibly the dude we had running the Stirland watch for us, with only the last not havinga nudge or some other shown or impliedcontact from Ranald..

So I guess that it's natural that a group of mostly priests and priest-adjacent people would be hardcore fanatics, though it's also possible that as the god of "screw the rules I've got (your) money" Ranald is more talkative than other gods?

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Wolf and Heideck got a communication from Ranald and literally didn't realize it was a communication from Ranald: I don't think they fit into that category, rather I think they got they got that communication because it involved Mathilde and their careers before and Heideck's career after were much more standard.

(TBH I think Boney runs things with the warhammer gods a lot more "talkative" than they are usually interpreted, so in quest you should probably grade things on a curve. If the standard reading would be most priests never get any sort of divine message like that, Boneyverse would be that most priests get one or two messages over their career at really important times.)

 

[Parabola]

From that it kind-of seems like most Ranaldians we've actually talked with are hardcore fanatics? Granted, we've got a pretty small sample size of us, Heidi the Divine-magic-wielder, Wolf and Heideck the actual priests, a couple of card sharks who got nudged away from being priests at our temple, and possibly the dude we had running the Stirland watch for us, with only the last not havinga nudge or some other shown or impliedcontact from Ranald..

So I guess that it's natural that a group of mostly priests and priest-adjacent people would be hardcore fanatics, though it's also possible that as the god of "screw the rules I've got (your) money" Ranald is more talkative than other gods?

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Well, the section does mention most of these fanatics tend to be Ranaldians, presumably because He's just that kinda god, but at the same time, I don't think our sample size is big enough.

Ranaldians typically don't admit to being Ranaldians, and those that do aren't typically found in Mathilde's social circles of the courts of Elector Counts and Dwarven Kings and isolationist Elves and Tzarevitches-turned-Tzars, Empress notwithstanding. Meanwhile we know the Grey College definitely has Ranaldians, but a good Grey Wizard (one that likes keeping secrets) wouldn't admit to worshiping Ranald unless that cat already got out of its bag, like with Mathilde. So for all we know most of them are just Normal Ranaldians (tm).

And I guess divine spellcasters and priests do actually have a closer relationship to their gods than their average person, so I imagine it's kind of a spectrum of just how close they think they are to their god, with Ranaldians being more common on this end because of His personality. Speaking of which, Wolf and/or Heideck might have been capable of channeling Ranald's divine energies on top of being actual priests, given how they exorcised the shrine to Stromfels.

...Anyway, even among Heidi, Heideck and Wolf, at least from our limited perspective that follows her, Mathilde is unusually close to Ranald, as she is neither a priest nor a divine spellcaster. Hell, if it wasn't for Mathilde keeping it absolutely secret, she would also technically qualify for the "Deeper Understanding" type of fanatic.

Deeper Understanding
Fanatics with a deeper understanding believe they have discovered something important about their God that is not generally understood. They combine this with the belief that they need to tell people about their discovery, to reform religion or to prepare people for the coming disaster. A priest who believed he has found the incarnation of Sigmar would fall into this category.

These zealots vary a great deal depending on what they think they have discovered, and the attitude of the cult hierarchy varies accordingly. All are seen as dangerous madmen, so their tolerance for such individuals affects they way they are handled. Those who preach that the hierarchy should be overthrown are always persecuted with great vigour, while those who want to establish a new festival might be adopted by a high priest who can see the potential for collecting a whole new set of offerings.

Some of these zealots believe they received a revelation from their God, while others claim to have found secrets in ancient writings, or in an abandoned temple. They do not, on the whole, claim to be receiving ongoing revelations.

This type of fanaticism is most common in the Cult of Verena. Indeed, some outside observers suggest that every Verenan is a fanatic of this sort. It is also common among followers of Ranald and Taal. Sigmarites tend to deal with such madmen very quickly, so there are few in that faith.

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[MrHobbit]

I'm not convinced that the traditional leyline is the Obviously Correct (tm) choice here. We don't know how difficult it is to create the initial leyline connection, but it's been noted as fairly challenging.

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Creating the initial leyline connection is as simple as going to an extant waystone and saying the correct command phrase. The Network would handle the rest. It might take time to carve the leyline, but that is much better than dumping Chaos taint at the mouths of the rivers we stick them on. They can also be deployed over a vastly larger area, rather than being limited to right by rivers.

Also mathymancer was talking about waystones for Ulthuan alone. I cannot fathom them preferring a riverine leyline or whatever over another alternative.

I think you are dismissing runes too lightly. I mean yeah normally the dwarfs will be giving Asur runes on the tenth of never, but these are not normal circumstances and this is part of the 'keep the world from being eaten by demons' system. There would be much bead tugging and teeth gnashing, but if you want something robust that does not require High Magic Runes are the solution at the very least for storage of not capstone. The College solution for storage is bad and more to the point it is bad in a way that an elf would find exasperating. It does not lack a Dhar Component because none can be made, it lacks one because the humans who made it can't handle Dhar. We either need a new storage solution or we need to figure out the runic problem. Push come to shove we do have that Vlag favor and these are very simple runes.

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I am not confident on if Dwarf runes can be used in waystones that we theoretically design to be built in Ulthuan. Runesmiths won't ever travel to Ulthuan. I imagine the storage mechanism can be transported, but I am not confident about the Rune portion. The College solution for storage works. Otherwise Boney would have made a comment about it: I raised a similar question about the dwarf clockwork and how it would make Dhar. I'm not sure how it works, but I also don't know why the Grey Lord orbital enchantment can be made by any human enchanter. It can even make dhar! I'm also pretty sure you mixed up the Collegiate solution for storage with the the Collegiate solution for the capstone.

I've talked about the Vlag problem already, and it is simply a horrible idea. Thorek Ironbrow is a member of the Waystone Project. He is a notorious conservative and certainly hates everything about the Runepokers. He would understand because Vlag was in the Realms of Chaos, but to try to go around the Runesmiths Guild like that would annoy him, a lot. They also lack the fundamentals of Runesmithing. I do not think they could help with the Project unless you had a Runesmith teach them. And good luck with that.

[The Rhunkit] only know the rote actions to achieve specific objectives, they don't have the foundational knowledge to start experimenting.

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...This will be a bit controversial, but I feel the need to ask: Boney can we do two "Make a Waystone Prototype" actions in a single turn?

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I don't think it is worth it. We get the keyphrases to the waystones once we give Ulthuan the tributaries. This will mean Mathilde will need to spend an action to Deploy the Tributaries in Ulthuan. That's three actions locked in, and I'd like to investigate the Dwarf network.

The phrasing of the action also makes me think Ulthuan will give more waystone lore the more we give them simpler ways to expand the network. We should keep the Ulthuan waystone in our pocket for if we think we want to get some specific information out of Ulthuan.

Capstone
Collegiate Fascis: 8 different enchantments of eight sticks, one for each wind. needs to be attached to the Network for the Dhar, might be harder than the stone flower time-wise
Stone Flower: high magic enchantment, probably the best even considering high magic
Runic Inductor: might create a dhar bomb if cut off, involves Runes

Rune: I have no idea what any of these are
Carving: just carving it in the waystone??? least effective
Dwarven: Runesmith, probably the best
Eonir: involves magical expertise???
Collegiate: probably involves magical expertise

Storage
Material: absolutely zero magical expertise required,
Enchantment (Collegiate): probably not as effective as the original enchantment, easier to spread though
Material + Collegiate Enchantment: possibly lessens the magical expertise needed compared to Enchantment as a middle ground between material and enchantment or it requires the same amount of time, but is just better
Enchantment (Reverse-Engineered, Unrefined): we'll probably get an action to refine the enchantment, maybe Ulthuan lost it?
Runes: just getting Runesmiths involved, probably can be transported

Orbital Mechanism
Dwarven Clockwork: minimal magical expertise needed, if any, get them from Dwarf holds
Grey Lord Enchantment: can be done by any human enchanter, Ulthuan can certainly do it

Leyline: we would have the keyphrases once we do "Tributary: International (Ulthuan)", just use that
Riverine - Hedgewise
Riverine - Jade
Riverine - Spirit

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@mathymancer what you want for the Ulthuan waystone variants depends on how far you want to go. Also how difficult you think it is for Ulthuan to repair waystones. I'll list the components in the order as Boney lists it.

Let's ignore the possibility of them just buying the completed Waystone from the Project, and thus they only need to connect it to the leylines. Also it is likely that combining the components will throw off the magic expert-labor time, I'm going to ignore that. Assume they assemble the components and buy all of the components they cannot make themselves. The best waystone by magical-expert labor would be:

• Runic Inductor; Carving; Material; Dwarven Clockwork; Keyphrase Leylines

That assumes they can get Dwarf runes, which I'm pretty sure they can't. Dwarven Clockwork might require runes, but it might not, so let's assume that it doesn't for the next one. If it does, just swap in the Grey Lord Enchantment. Ulthuan has more enchanters who can do the Collegiate Fascis than the Stone Flower, but the latter is probably much quicker (though the labor it needs is more expert) so let's go with that.

• Stone Flower; Carving; Material; Dwarven Clockwork; Keyphrase Leylines

I don't know how Material/Colleg. Enchant/Mat+CollegEnchant handle the Dhar but it wasn't mentioned to be a problem so I'm going to assume it isn't. Also Carving and Material almost certainly could be better than the absolute bare minimum.

• Stone Flower; Eonir; Material + Collegiate Enchantment; Dwarven Clockwork; Keyphrase Leylines

I think that last one would be a good product to give to Ulthuan to hook them into the Project further. It's about as simple as we can make it that we can reasonably expect Ulthuan to be able to acquire all of the components for, but it isn't completely bare bones. I would rather have the Grey Lord enchantment for the orbital mechanism because of aesthetics, but the clockwork satisfies me enough.

Eltharion heavily implied Ulthuan can build waystones, but it is time consuming and requires very experienced workers. The question I have is how expensive is it? Figuring that out would be a major step on the path to cracking open the waystone secret pinata.

 

[NobodyImportant]

I'm struggling to imagine a worse idea than trying to subtly invoke the God of treachery and theft in this monumental work of intercontinental diplomacy. I'm picturing a modern day real world treaty where the first letter in every paragraph spells out I M R O B B I N G Y O U.

 

[Nurgle]

So I wonder how Marienburg is going to respond to the new canal with the Bohka accords. Because while they could threaten and ask Ulthuan for help, the empire has taken the fear from messing with waystones and are part of expanding Ulthuan network. Marienburg is going to feel trapped and desperate. Which is not good because that means they will do something stupid.

 

[storryeater]

Nah, Ranald is definitely a God of conmen among other things, and they're anything but nice. Sure, you can't spurn any of His faces if you worship Him, so even the thiefiest thieves and liariest liars gotta have at least a little respect for the Protector, but there's still a lot of chaotic selfish stuff they can get up to without crossing the line into tyranny (hell, even ruling over peasants and taking their taxes purely for personal enrichment is fine apparently), and that's not even getting into the kind of nastiness Ranaldites are allowed to do, and fanatical Ranaldites sometimes do religiously, to Acceptable Targets (tm).

Let's really not sanitize Him, okay? We main the Protector, that's something Boney has mentioned (and something Heidi doesn't really get), our relationship with Him is shaped by our own biases (remember what kinda person Mathilde is) and focused on the nicest aspect of Him in the least violent interpretation of it.

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I do not know how else to say it, but again, a god is not defined solely by their spheres. He is the god of conmen, yes, but more the Kaijis and the guys from the Great Pretender anime and the guys from the Emperor's new clothes conmen, rather than the guys who phone a home and say their children was in an accident trying to extort money.

The fact that people pray to Ranald when his spheres are involved even though he would not look upon their activities favorably says nothing. Corrupt judges would still pray to Verena, wounded soldiers would still pray to Shallya, and presumably Dieter IV prayed to Sigmar. Even if these gods do decide to throw a bone to these kind of guys, it does not mean they agree with what they are doing.

And, again, I am not trying to whitewash Ranald, he has faults. He would probably cut us off from our other loyalties if we let him, I acknowledge that. Preying on greed does not mean a scam won't hurt good people I acknowledge that. The whole Heidi thing will make things better if it goes well, but it is also playing with gunpowder that can blow up the Empire, I acknowledge that. Scamming people who are greedy can easily veer into scamming people who are desperate and not even a god, much less those he encourages, can always perfectly determine who is who, I aknowledge that.

What I am objecting to most fiercely are the interpretations that reduce Ranald into a collection of domains bereft of philosophy or personality. Sigmar is not reduced to being comprised entirely by war and rule for their own sake, he puts a spin in them. Verena is not a goddess comprised entirely of law, justice and knowledge, she has a philosophy. Why is only Ranald treated as if his domains define him, while the other gods are treated as if they define their domains? That is my objection.

 

[reignonyrparade]

What I am objecting to most fiercely are the interpretations that reduce Ranald into a collection of domains bereft of philosophy or personality.

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He's not getting those, you just don't like other people's interpretations that very much still include personality and philosophy.

 

[storryeater]

He's not getting those, you just don't like other people's interpretations that very much still include personality and philosophy.

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I have not actually had one of those yet, though. All I have seen are arguments that he is responsible for every thief and scammer and culpable for their actions. (would that make Sigmar responsible for Dieter IV's actions?) and the argument that gods are more forces/beings with multiple personality disorder than personalities, which I always aknowledged as valid until the Father thing came up, which made that a bit harder to defend.

And like, I understand where people come from, I had a very unpleasant experience with being pickpocketed, I am not saying anyone is stupid or malicious, I just feel its unfair to Ranald.

 

[Mopman43]

(would that make Sigmar responsible for Dieter IV's actions?)

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I'm not sure that Dieter was any kind of devout Sigmarite.

He fucked around with the wizards because he found it funny, not for religious reasons.

 

[MightbeaMimic]

So I wonder how Marienburg is going to respond to the new canal with the Bohka accords. Because while they could threaten and ask Ulthuan for help, the empire has taken the fear from messing with waystones and are part of expanding Ulthuan network. Marienburg is going to feel trapped and desperate. Which is not good because that means they will do something stupid.

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They've already been doing stupid shit. Considering they've been effectively threatening war with the Empire idk how much dumber they can get

 

[reignonyrparade]

I have not actually had one of those yet, though. All I have seen are arguments that he is responsible for every thief and scammer and culpable for their actions. (would that make Sigmar responsible for Dieter IV's actions?) and the argument that gods are more forces/beings with multiple personality disorder than personalities, which I always aknowledged as valid until the Father thing came up, which made that a bit harder to defend.

And like, I ynderstand where people come from, I had a very unpleasant experience with being pickpocketed, I am not saying anyone is stupid or malicious, I just feel its unfair to Ranald.

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Every single one of them someone has actually presented in this argument certainly reads that way to me, and certainly my own posts replying to you have been written that way. It just seems that for you we aren't allowed to build a "theory of mind" for ranald off his clergy the way we would for literally any other diety, the only data point we seem to be allowed to use is Ranald's Interactions With Mathilde Specifically.

 

[Nurgle]

They've already been doing stupid shit. Considering they've been effectively threatening war with the Empire idk how much dumber they can get

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Never underestimate human stupidity, because someone somewhere will find a way to be even more stupid.

 

[storryeater]

Every single one of them someone has actually presented in this argument certainly reads that way to me, and certainly my own posts replying to you have been written that way. It just seems that for you we aren't allowed to build a "theory of mind" for ranald off his clergy the way we would for literally any other diety, the only data point we seem to be allowed to use is Ranald's Interactions With Mathilde Specifically.

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Ok. It is possible that I misread something or did not pay proper attention. If so, I apologise most sincerely.

But I still cannot determine what said theory is. Although, again, It is likely that the fault of comprehension is my own,.

 

[xamaplak]

as she is neither a priest

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Are you sure about that? I mean, she owns a temple to Randald, has organized the Ranaldian equivalent of a regular religious service, and personally oversaw an impromptu service during the Expedition. She even has a holy symbol.

 

[Parabola]

Are you sure about that? I mean, she owns a temple to Randald, has organized the Ranaldian equivalent of a regular religious service, and personally oversaw an impromptu service during the Expedition. She even has a holy symbol.

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I will admit the thought occurred to me after I posted that.

 

[MightbeaMimic]

Are you sure about that? I mean, she owns a temple to Randald, has organized the Ranaldian equivalent of a regular religious service, and personally oversaw an impromptu service during the Expedition. She even has a holy symbol.

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She doesn't see herself as a priest though.

Frankly I think a large part of why Ranald and Mathilde have this weirdly friendly relationship is just that Mathilde doesn't see why they wouldn't. She treats him more as a friend than as a god and he got curious

 

[The Phoenixian]

I'm struggling to imagine a worse idea than trying to subtly invoke the God of treachery and theft in this monumental work of intercontinental diplomacy. I'm picturing a modern day real world treaty where the first letter in every paragraph spells out I M R O B B I N G Y O U.

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By the same token you could also invoke Ranald as the god of the protection of the meek, (Or, to stretch that theme a bit, the duty of the powerful to the world around them,) seeking chances where chances lie, the favored god of one of the Empire's diplomatic corps (The Grey Order), and the Divine patron of the person who literally tied the project all together.

 

[xamaplak]

I'm struggling to imagine a worse idea than trying to subtly invoke the God of treachery and theft in this monumental work of intercontinental diplomacy. I'm picturing a modern day real world treaty where the first letter in every paragraph spells out I M R O B B I N G Y O U.

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I mean, uh, Hekarti is the goddess of Dark Magic, The Widow kills male magic users, and Verena is the goddess of "all knowledge, yes even the Screaming Tome of Instant Corruption". If we judged all gods by just some of their spheres, I think we'd only have Thungni, Isha, Dazh, and maybe Asuryan and Grungni.

 

[ReImagined]

By the same token you could also invoke Ranald as the god of the protection of the meek, (Or, to stretch that theme a bit, the duty of the powerful to the world around them,) seeking chances where chances lie, the favored god of one of the Empire's diplomatic corps (The Grey Order), and the Divine patron of the person who literally tied the project all together.

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Honestly, invoking the god of theft and trickery on a project that's quite literally stealing magic from the aims of Chaos seems rather appropriate.

 

[Otrovik]

I mean, uh, Hekarti is the goddess of Dark Magic, The Widow kills male magic users, and Verena is the goddess of "all knowledge, yes even the Screaming Tome of Instant Corruption". If we judged all gods by just some of their spheres, I think we'd only have Thungni, Isha, Dazh, and maybe Asuryan and Grungni.

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In the minds of the Imperial nobility, Ranald is infinitely worse than all of those.