Lex Sedet In Vertice: A Supervillain in the DCU CK2 quest

PickleJar · Sep 18, 2023

I like the character development behind Monkey See Monkey do. It could result in a fun omake series as well, of Cassandra just trying a bunch of new stuff and how it would affect her as a result. I'll be honest and say that it could also be used as a good opportunity to humble her a bit.

The fact that it could make many actions effectively an autosuccess is actually very powerful as well.

jonasquinn said:
Getting Brown's ruling repealed both endears us to him and makes it harder for people to criticise what we're doing.

There are a few qualifiers that make this false AFAIK.

First of all, Enoch Brown's ruling was passed in in New Jersey at the state level, and while Maryland might take a similar position that is not guaranteed since their state laws and rulings are different.

Secondly, and more importantly, there's a massive difference between Enoch Brown doing this sort of thing and Lexcorp doing this sort of thing. To elaborate a bit more, if a normal person tried to develop weapons on their own then they'd get smacked to hell and back, but if it's a company like Lexcorp then it's fine. Similarly, while Enoch Brown was forced to shut down his own operation, the operation itself is in no way illegal for Lexcorp to pursue since we can very much provide additional security measures and get considerably more leeway than Brown himself ever could.

Andmeuths · Sep 18, 2023

King crimson said:
Monkey See, Monkey Better than You: This is likely going to amp up Cassandra's arrogance and confidence a fair bit as her assurance in her own capabilities will spike. It's also liable to make Cassandra more likely to start watching people for skills/motions she'd like to have. As is Cassandra is unlikely to go watch pro skateboarders or master chefs at work or musical prodigies playing an instrument, but with this trait Cassandra would be a lot more interested in watching this as she could essentially take their skills for herself by observing them. This in turn would probably lead to Cassandra just being weirdly talented and accomplished at a wide variety of things because it costs her very little to gain those capabilities for herself.

Based on these clarifications and looking at the current tally, Monkey See Monkey Better than You seems to be the most narratively interesting of all of the options, to see Casandra embracing, so I am going for it, unless another option that I prefer less than Memetic Me (like Master Contortionist) potentially might take the lead.

[X] [Trait] Monkey See, Monkey Better than You

[X] [Camp] Send Raven and Jinx to the camp

[X] [Crash] Take over and rebrand Crash Alley Street races

King crimson · Sep 18, 2023

Randino Treviani said:
So with contortionist, her new ability to escape restraints would probably heighten her awareness of the less physical restraints keeping her from doing what she wants and lead to a slightly elevated progression in the rate at which her desire for freedom and autonomy grows.

That certainly could happen but I think it's not the effect I think is most likely. I think that the contortionist ability is unlikely to lead to much of a shift in personality. She'd be more capable of freaking people out and a lot more effective of getting into and out of tight places. I think it might lead to some increased arrogance and confidence as she'd view stuff like handcuffing her contemptuously and it might lead to an increased interest in acrobatics/gymnastics or dance or even cause Cassandra to develop her own unique martial art, but I actually see the Master Contortionist trait not having that much of an effect on Cassandra's personality.

Edit: Again keep in mind that this is all guesswork on my part and is quite liable to ultimately be inaccurate. Traits aren't preset personalities and behaviors, it's more accurate to say that they're a trend or a tool that makes some developments more liable than others but guarantees nothing. Even traits like "Sadist Supreme" (which makes personality shifts very likely) don't guarantee a set character development and are heavily developed by rolls and outside factors.

Sirrocco · Sep 18, 2023

King crimson said:
[ ] [Crash] Take over and rebrand Crash Alley Street races

This is the one if we want to put effort into making the races non-dangerous. Potential payoff, but it woudl require investment.

[ ] [Crash] Do nothing to Crash Alley

...and this is the one if we don't want to invest.

Of the two... I'm inclined to go with the second. Crash Alley is small potatoes and we already have way more stuff to do than we have attentiont o spend doing it.

King crimson said:
[ ] [Direct] King of Crime

Daphne likes it a lot, potentially great success with the critics, and it might add more criminals tot he Gotham soup. What's not to like? I mean, seriously, I look at all of the rest of the options, and they all seem to either mean very little or have at least as much downside as they have upside. I look at this one, and I just see it stacking up wins.

Cassandra is complicated, and I'm going to have to cycle back to it, but I notice in particular that a lot of these seem like things that would change her character to one degree or another. I'd suggest we watch out for that. I don't think she really needs more supervillain-nature, and a lot of these would give her more supervillain-nature.

For Camp... I think just Raven. It woudl be good for her. Starfire is a bit of a risk, and I just don't see much of a benefit to sending Jinx. Maybe Raven/Starfire. Having Raven and Starfire get along better together might help with the "drawing Raven in" thing.

For Confronting Crocks... it's going to depend on what we want out of this one. If we want to try to pull her in as a hero unit or send her off to one of our allies who isn't Ra's, then I think that just approaching her is probably the better bet. If we don't... then why have we been chasing her so hard? Leaving her with a picture and an invitation seems rude to Jade, who still hasn't made a decision of whether she wants to meet with her mom.

So....

[ ] [Crock] Have Talia alone approach Paula Crock in private

I think it's honestly the best path to possibly recruiting her... and it hands Talia some more rope to play with. She likes that. Really, Talia is a better pickup than Paula anyway. In a situation like this, where the stakes are relatively low, I'm inclined to smile genially and let her scheme.

PickleJar · Sep 18, 2023

Sirrocco said:
This is the one if we want to put effort into making the races non-dangerous. Potential payoff, but it woudl require investment.

...and this is the one if we don't want to invest.

Of the two... I'm inclined to go with the second. Crash Alley is small potatoes and we already have way more stuff to do than we have attentiont o spend doing it.

This is a bit of a mixed bag IMO. Right now Alexandria doesn't have any huge attractions that are worth coming over for, and developing a racing scene is a viable way to change that.

Sirrocco said:
For Confronting Crocks... it's going to depend on what we want out of this one. If we want to try to pull her in as a hero unit or send her off to one of our allies who isn't Ra's, then I think that just approaching her is probably the better bet. If we don't... then why have we been chasing her so hard? Leaving her with a picture and an invitation seems rude to Jade, who still hasn't made a decision of whether she wants to meet with her mom.

I think that people are interested in recruiting Artemis rather than Paula. Personally, I don't think she's even worth the effort of smuggling to one of our allies and we should just turn her over to the police.

Randino Treviani · Sep 18, 2023

Sirrocco said:
Cassandra is complicated, and I'm going to have to cycle back to it, but I notice in particular that a lot of these seem like things that would change her character to one degree or another. I'd suggest we watch out for that. I don't think she really needs more supervillain-nature, and a lot of these would give her more supervillain-nature.

Agreed. King crimson has chimed in on this in an earlier post. In that case, of the safe "minimal personality change" options, I say contortionist is pretty solid with a boost to her base intrigue and a skill that could be hypothetically useful if the long imagined Dick Greyson rivalry ever comes to be.

Sirrocco said:
For Camp... I think just Raven. It woudl be good for her. Starfire is a bit of a risk, and I just don't see much of a benefit to sending Jinx. Maybe Raven/Starfire. Having Raven and Starfire get along better together might help with the "drawing Raven in" thing.

I'm in favor of gambling on Jinx and Raven learning to work together. Realistically, as two magic users, they have little to gain from working with metahumans, and a lot to gain if they get over their cooperation issues and devote time to practicing magic.

Sirrocco said:
For Confronting Crocks... it's going to depend on what we want out of this one. If we want to try to pull her in as a hero unit or send her off to one of our allies who isn't Ra's, then I think that just approaching her is probably the better bet. If we don't... then why have we been chasing her so hard? Leaving her with a picture and an invitation seems rude to Jade, who still hasn't made a decision of whether she wants to meet with her mom.

We've been pursuing them because jade has issues, issues that might flare up and cause us problems now that we have tied her to Lexcorp in the public eye and legal defendee of our law firm. She's all kind of confused about her parents but leaning towards hatred. Her sister on the other hand she's confused about but protective of. We didn't want the government arresting Paula and disappearing Artemis into some super spy/assassin program of wallers that might see Jade leave and break into somewhere she shouldn't, so we stepped in.

I'd prefer to convince Paula to give custody of Artemis to us, to become a great hero unit over the several years worth of child actions that will be more focused on specific stats compared to Cassandra. Paula I'd rather give to an ally, and Ra works, but so could queen Bee and we are meeting with her, though I might leave the decision about what happens with Paula entirely up to talia as a gesture of trust I'm sure she'll make payoff in some way in the future. Talia can personally attest to our success in molding Cassandra and Paula has doubts about her and Sportsman's own attempts to raise there children for talia to lean into when it comes to convincing her to entrust her other daughter to us.

I have a write in which gives Talia more to work with in both extracting them if they cooperate, and engaging them if they run or fight.

AizenMD · Sep 18, 2023

[X] [Crash] Cancel all Crash Alley street races

Too much effort

[X] [Direct] Hexed in the West
[X] [Direct] King of Crime

Western MCU VS more braindead criminals in gotham

[X] [Trait] Monkey See, Monkey Better than You
[X] [Trait] ?????

Only way to be best girl. It's even in the name.

Randino Treviani · Sep 18, 2023

King crimson said:
This is likely going to amp up Cassandra's arrogance and confidence a fair bit as her assurance in her own capabilities will spike.

Guys, keep in mind that "Monkey See, Monkey Better than You" could result in Cassandra growing more extreme in her arrogance and overconfidence. These are personality traits that are already pretty strong and we don't need them getting stronger.

PickleJar · Sep 18, 2023

Randino Treviani said:
Guys, keep in mind that "Monkey See, Monkey Better than You" could result in Cassandra growing more extreme in her arrogance and overconfidence. These are personality traits that are already pretty strong and we don't need them getting stronger.

It could, but it could just as easily be a way to humble her.

For example, just because Cassandra can copy a basketball player's movements it doesn't mean that she can beat them. Copying the best moves of the best players in the NBA only to get punked by a 6'8 college player that only needed the scholarship to study accounting and has no plans on turning pro is an extremely interesting development IMO.

The decreased DC on many options and the narrative implications of her trying new things and getting new experiences are significantly more interesting than committing to an influencer path at the expense of more child actions.

ThatGuyWithIdeas · Sep 18, 2023

[X] [Crash] Cancel all Crash Alley street races

[X] [Tower] Make non-impactful renovations to LexCorp tower
-[X] [Renovate] Have large American flags be prominent in the lobby of LexCorp tower
-[X] [Renovate] Get Janus a room that's meant to imitate a Savannah
-[X] [Renovate] Install a giant fish tank at Lightyear Entertainments headquarters
-[X] [Renovate] Create a designated sauna room for Snowy
-[X] [Renovate] Allow Cassandra to decorate her personal gym
-[X] [Renovate] Allow Jade to purchase kabuki masks to hang on her rooms walls
-[X] [Renovate] Update the bowling alleys to use animations involving prominent LexCorp figures
-[X] [Renovate] Let Jinx install a chocolate fountain in her room
-[X] [Renovate] Build an extra 3 bookshelves for Raven
-[X] [Renovate] Install a waterslide
-[X] [Renovate] Build a room in Lightyear Entertainment's headquarters that plays their material nonstop
-[X] [Renovate] Build a popcorn machine for the theaters
-[X] [Renovate] Allow Jinx to stick a gold name plate on the door to her room
-[X] [Renovate] Improve the inter-kitchen intercom system
-[X] [Renovate] Install a comfortable massage chair in Mercy's office/command center
-[X] [Renovate] Install a statue of nemesis before the law offices
-[X] [Renovate] Install a giant chess board with remote control pieces
-[X] [Renovate] Install a statue garden dedicated to LexCorp's success on the grounds outside
-[X] [Renovate] Install a performative "Ultraviolet signal" on the roof of LexCorp tower
-[X] [Renovate] Install coffee machines on every floor available to the general workforce
-[X] [Renovate] Include a "the doctor is in" sign on Rene Carpenter's office
-[X] [Renovate] Install more L-Phone charging stations
-[X] [Renovate] Install a table with replicas of Metropolis and Tokyo Lexcorp Towers side by side with a plaque reading "closer than you think" between them.
-[X] [Renovate] Install a portrait of Lex and Cassandra in Lex's office.

[X] [Direct] Cry of the Unborn God
[X] [Direct] King of Crime
[X] [Direct] Pirates of Nassau

[X] [Trait] Master Contortionist
[X] [Trait] Memetic Me

[X] [Crock] Have Talia alone approach Paula Crock in private

[X] [Camp] Send Raven and Jinx to the camp

Sirrocco · Sep 18, 2023

I think that any plan based on "take Artemis away from Paula and then raise her while Paula goes off to do something else" is kind of fatally flawed by the fact that Paula isn't going to be even remotely inclined to give up her own child to a faceless megacorp, and Artemis isn't going to thank us for taking her away from her mom.

And if we lose Jade? Then we lose Jade. Oh noes! She's pretty marginal as heroes go anyway.

[X] [Direct] King of Crime

Because it's pure win.

[X] [Trait] Monkey See, Monkey Better than You
[X] [Trait] Memetic Me

Monkey See because it's also a huge amount of win. Sure, it'll crank up her superiority complex... by making her superior.
Memetic Me has been edited in, however, because @King crimson has just pointed out that it's directly useful for undermining Superman's popularity.

[X] [Crock] Have Talia alone approach Paula Crock in private

As above. We'll likely get some good out of it, and we'll almost certainly get some Talia points. Talia points have value.

[X] [Crash] Do nothing to Crash Alley

I continue to think that Crash Alley is doing fine as it is and we don't want to mess with it. We already decided that we don't want to own everything about the city.

[x] [Tower] Make non-impactful renovations to LexCorp tower
-[x] [Renovate] Let Jinx install a chocolate fountain in her room
-[x] [Renovate] Build an extra 3 bookshelves for Raven
-[x] [Renovate] Build a room in Lightyear Entertainment's headquarters that plays their material nonstop
-[x] [Renovate] Allow Jinx to stick a gold name plate on the door to her room
-[x] [Renovate] Improve the inter-kitchen intercom system
-[x] [Renovate] Install a comfortable massage chair in Mercy's office/command center
-[x] [Renovate] Install a statue of nemesis before the law offices
-[x] [Renovate] Install coffee machines on every floor available to the general workforce
-[x] [Renovate] Install more L-Phone charging stations

just the stuff I saw that I liked.

Serpentine · Sep 18, 2023

[X] [Crash] Take over and rebrand Crash Alley Street races
[X] [Crash] Have Crash Alley be an open testing ground for experimental vehicles

[X] [Tower] Make non-impactful renovations to LexCorp tower
-[X] [Renovate] Allow Cassandra to decorate her personal gym
-[X] [Renovate] Let Jinx install a chocolate fountain in her room
-[X] [Renovate] Build an extra 3 bookshelves for Raven
-[X] [Renovate] Allow Jinx to stick a gold name plate on the door to her room
-[X] [Renovate] Improve the inter-kitchen intercom system
-[X] [Renovate] Install a comfortable massage chair in Mercy's office/command center
-[X] [Renovate] Install coffee machines on every floor available to the general workforce
-[X] [Renovate] Install more L-Phone charging stations
-[X] [Renovate] Install a portrait of Lex and Cassandra in Lex's office
-[X] [Renovate] Install an imperious hydra statue made of kryptonite on a raised dais in the lobby. With amethysts for eyes.
-[X] [Renovate] Hang the flags of the G7 nations on the walls of the lobby

[X] [Trait] Body Horror
[X] [Trait] Monkey See, Monkey Better than You
[X] [Trait] ?????

[X] [Direct] King of Crime
[X] [Direct] Cry of the Unborn God

How much of a safety hazard would it be to install a hydra statue made of kryptonite in the lobby?

King crimson · Sep 18, 2023

Serpentine said:
How much of a safety hazard would it be to install a hydra statue made of kryptonite in the lobby?

Probably not too much so long as you take some basic precautions to keep people from touching it. Something like putting the kryptonite statute on a raised dais or in the center of a fountain/pool or behind some fences or even just behind some glass would work to make it safe for most normal people. The complications only really come into play if you start touching it, being exposed to it for weeks/months on end and/or having low radiation resistance in which case the sun is dangerous for you.

I'd let you write-in the hydra statute made of kryptonite in the lobby with little to no consequences or punishments for it.

Edit: In terms of it exploding, you're still probably safe as it requires someone pumping kryptonite full of heat and/or electricity in order to energize it enough to explode in the middle of your lobby. If they're in the lobby and can do that much without you stopping them they could probably achieve equivalent damage through different means.

Randino Treviani · Sep 18, 2023

Sirrocco said:
And if we lose Jade? Then we lose Jade. Oh noes! She's pretty marginal as heroes go anyway.

It's not just losing jade, it's jade running off and causing problems after we have publicly tied her to Lexcorp in a public court of law. It's her being a loose cannon with our rep on line. We've made her a bigger problem than a hero that might just ditch us one day.

Sirrocco said:
I think that any plan based on "take Artemis away from Paula and then raise her while Paula goes off to do something else" is kind of fatally flawed by the fact that Paula isn't going to be even remotely inclined to give up her own child to a faceless megacorp, and Artemis isn't going to thank us for taking her away from her mom.

Paula is on the run, and three big bad organizations are bearing down on her, meaning she's failed her daughter again. Her husband is in jail, she's worried about doing things on her own, she's plagued by doubts about her previous attempts to raise her daughters to be assassins, about raising artemis now, about life as a known fugitive and always having to stay ahead of her enemies.

Along comes Talia ready to twist the knife and let her know she's likely to lose her daughter regardless, but with us she could at least stay in touch. Ready and capable of playing mind games and promising a better life for Artemis with us, to point out how dangerous things are now if the wrong person had found them before us, with a means of extraction on hand.

Worse comes to worse? Fine. We take them as a package deal and include a willingness to do so in the next phase of voting, leaving the call over whether to try for Just Artemis or immediately cut a deal where we aim for both up to Talia. They can live in a tower another country most of the time and use DDMs when there in the US and are worried about being seen.

We are here, and a crit success has given us an upper hand. No reason not to try our best to walk away with something.

Also, there is a write in that gives Talia more resources and Keeps Lady Vic on standby if things go south and we are forced to go with the capture her, hand her to the authorities and spend a free child special action or three brainwashing Artemis into a more cooperative state of mind.

Schehera Zade said:
[X] [Crock] Have Talia disguise herself and approach Paula Crock in private while Lady Vic in a digital decoy mask hides and waits to ambush should either of the Crocks attempt to run or fight. Bring spare digital decoy masks incase we come to an agreement with the Crocks and need to disguise them.

Maybe consider switching too it?

Turamarth · Sep 18, 2023

[X] [Crash] Take over and rebrand Crash Alley Street races
[X] [Tower] Make non-impactful renovations to LexCorp tower
-[X] [Renovate] Have large American flags be prominent in the lobby of LexCorp tower
-[X] [Renovate] Get Janus a room that's meant to imitate a Savannah
-[X] [Renovate] Allow Cassandra to decorate her personal gym
-[X] [Renovate] Allow Jade to purchase kabuki masks to hang on her rooms walls
-[X] [Renovate] Update the bowling alleys to use animations involving prominent LexCorp figures
-[X] [Renovate] Build an extra 3 bookshelves for Raven
-[X] [Renovate] Install a waterslide
-[X] [Renovate] Build a room in Lightyear Entertainment's headquarters that plays their material nonstop
-[X] [Renovate] Build a popcorn machine for the theaters
-[X] [Renovate] Allow Jinx to stick a gold name plate on the door to her room
-[X] [Renovate] Improve the inter-kitchen intercom system
-[X] [Renovate] Install a comfortable massage chair in Mercy's office/command center
-[X] [Renovate] Install a performative "Ultraviolet signal" on the roof of LexCorp tower
-[X] [Renovate] Install coffee machines on every floor available to the general workforce
-[X] [Renovate] Install a portrait of Lex and Cassandra in Lex's office.
-[X] [Renovate] Install a table with replicas of Metropolis and Tokyo Lexcorp Towers side by side with a plaque reading "closer than you think" between them.
[X] [Direct] Cry of the Unborn God
[X] [Direct] Hexed in the West
[X] [Direct] King of Crime
[X] [Trait] Memetic Me
[X] [Camp] Send Raven and Starfire to the camp

Sirrocco · Sep 18, 2023

Randino Treviani said:
Maybe consider switching too it?

I'm just not a fan of ambushing Paula if she tries to run. If she runs, she runs.

Alex Sol · Sep 18, 2023

[X] [Crash] Take over and rebrand Crash Alley Street races
[X] [Direct] King of Crime
[X] [Direct] Pirates of Nassau
[X] [Trait] Memetic Me
[X] [Camp] Send Raven and Jinx to the camp

jonasquinn · Sep 18, 2023

@King crimson can I ask, are there any skills that Cassandra could pick up with Monkey See, Monkey Better Than You that would apply to Learning and/or Stewardship or is it primarily a Martial, Intrigue and Diplomacy thing?

Randino Treviani said:
Thats a possibility, and an unlikely one, which is a lot to gamble on. ultimately being back in Jades life isn't necessarily on the table so if this is going to work, I need Paula to do this without using Jade or info on Jade as collateral. She's the one backed in a corner with her whole world about to go up in flames. If Talia can't convince her of that without jade, then there is little hope of things working out long-term. I want Talia and Elaine having as little on them that implicates Lexcorp in as few ways as possible, so the pictures of a publicly acknowledged as our ward jade crock is a no go.

We don't necessarily need to offer to let her be part of Jade's life so much as let her know that she is safe and, relatively, happy.

Nobody134 said:
There are a few qualifiers that make this false AFAIK.

First of all, Enoch Brown's ruling was passed in in New Jersey at the state level, and while Maryland might take a similar position that is not guaranteed since their state laws and rulings are different.

Secondly, and more importantly, there's a massive difference between Enoch Brown doing this sort of thing and Lexcorp doing this sort of thing. To elaborate a bit more, if a normal person tried to develop weapons on their own then they'd get smacked to hell and back, but if it's a company like Lexcorp then it's fine. Similarly, while Enoch Brown was forced to shut down his own operation, the operation itself is in no way illegal for Lexcorp to pursue since we can very much provide additional security measures and get considerably more leeway than Brown himself ever could.

The concern is less that what we'd be doing is illegal and more that if someone does kick up a fuss an existing legal precedent against something similar could be a pain in our ass.

Randino Treviani said:
In that case, of the safe "minimal personality change" options, I say contortionist is pretty solid with a boost to her base intrigue and a skill that could be hypothetically useful if the long imagined Dick Greyson rivalry ever comes to be.

I also think Body Horror would be pretty good for a minimal change option.

Nobody134 said:
It could, but it could just as easily be a way to humble her.

For example, just because Cassandra can copy a basketball player's movements it doesn't mean that she can beat them. Copying the best moves of the best players in the NBA only to get punked by a 6'8 college player that only needed the scholarship to study accounting and has no plans on turning pro is an extremely interesting development IMO.

I find that fairly unlikely IMO, after all Cassandra is an extremely skilled acrobat and combatant. Combine that with being able to read the movements of anyone she's up against and replicate them flawlessly and I doubt she'd lose to anyone that doesn't have superhuman abilities.

Sirrocco said:
[X] [Crash] Do nothing to Crash Alley

I continue to think that Crash Alley is doing fine as it is and we don't want to mess with it. We already decided that we don't want to own everything about the city

Two things worth considering.

1) Doing nothing would leave a known criminal element in the city which we'd have no power over.
2) This could be a good thing to put Cassandra in charge of, a low priority area where she can learn and get the freedom and responsibility she wants.

PickleJar · Sep 18, 2023

jonasquinn said:
@King crimson can I ask, are there any skills that Cassandra could pick up with Monkey See, Monkey Better Than You that would apply to Learning and/or Stewardship or is it primarily a Martial, Intrigue and Diplomacy thing?

Off the top of my head, architecture/engineering or any design-based talent is something that having that particular trait would help out with.

jonasquinn said:
The concern is less that what we'd be doing is illegal and more that if someone does kick up a fuss an existing legal precedent against something similar could be a pain in our ass.

Any legal precedent is irrelevant and nobody can do anything to touch us. This is not a worthwhile concern.

jonasquinn said:
I find that fairly unlikely IMO, after all Cassandra is an extremely skilled acrobat and combatant. Combine that with being able to read the movements of anyone she's up against and replicate them flawlessly and I doubt she'd lose to anyone that doesn't have superhuman abilities.

First of all, this is the sort of thing that Omakes can establish. There are plenty of scenarios that you can put her in that will make this ability fairly limited (off the top of my head, being able to dance wouldn't make you understand things like choreography, being able to beatbox won't give you a sense of rhythm, and having the knifework of a world-class chef won't make you a good cook)

Secondly, being able to copy a motion doesn't mean that you can use it. if she copied the shooting technique of the best shooter in basketball she wouldn't get much out of it since things like biomechanics (limb proportions and such), strength and a sense of distance play a huge factor - she would need to adjust how she throws the ball to generate enough force when compared an adult professional player, which will alter her technique and make what she copied pretty much useless to her since she can't throw the ball the same way to get the same result.

Besides, Cassandra is already pretty much invincible or close to invincible against any enemy that doesn't have superhuman abilities of some sort in a straight-up fight. She has a Martial of 44 when fighting - that's Superman-tier.

Also, if we follow the logic of "Choosing such a good trait for her will make her arrogant" then we will also have to commit to not making Cassandra better at all since that's also going to make her more arrogant and give her something to lord over others.

Also, also, I would argue that potential personality changes from Memetic Me are not only worse, but are much more difficult to mitigate.

Randino Treviani · Sep 18, 2023

jonasquinn said:
The concern is less that what we'd be doing is illegal and more that if someone does kick up a fuss an existing legal precedent against something similar could be a pain in our ass.

Then they end up in legal hell with endless retrials. People probably won't bother with this for the same reason Disney is able to get away with cheating star wars original continuation writers out of there royalties. Again, King has given us a specific, singular action to deal with the issue impeding our ration pack at this time. All we can do is take it and see if further problems arise later.

The problem with monkey see, monkey better than you is it's a useful action for gains later, which requires us to invest in it by taking actions which use to improve Cassandra's abilities. We aren't really interested in Cassandra being a professional dancer or master surfing or learn to pole vault like the pros.

We want her inventing and leading manipulating the masses in preparation for the day she leads Lexcorp. Monkey see, monkey better than you is an op trait that none the less is worthless because it doesn't help us take Cassandra's development into the more cerebral directions we intend to pursue. I'd appreciate it if people actually consider what sort of goals we have for Cassandra and how little Monkey see, monkey better than you actually helps with them compared to raising stats or something that helps her socialize.

PickleJar · Sep 18, 2023

Randino Treviani said:
The problem with monkey see, monkey better than you is it's a useful action for gains later, which requires us to invest in it by taking actions which use to improve Cassandra's abilities. We aren't really interested in Cassandra being a professional dancer or master surfing or learn to pole vault like the pros.

We want her inventing and leading manipulating the masses in preparation for the day she leads Lexcorp. Monkey see, monkey better than you is an op trait that none the less is worthless because it doesn't help us take Cassandra's development into the more cerebral directions we intend to pursue. I'd appreciate it if people actually consider what sort of goals we have for Cassandra and how little Monkey see, monkey better than you actually helps with them compared to raising stats or something that helps her socialize.

A lot of these useful sorts of actions rely on physical movement to at least an extent though. Things like public speaking, acting, stealth, blending in crowds, just being more likeable in general through body language and even some technical skills like engineering, Building things, drawing and architecture, forgery, intimidation and many more. I can see this trait contributing to a decent amount of Learning actions that we either want to take, become viable for us if we take this, or that we want to hire tutors for (People are interested in Richard Dragon, and hiring and art tutor for Cassandra would basically be free stat points). These are all things that can result in interesting traits a different variety of stat increases.

Besides, there's the ballet action that is outright implied to lead to very interesting results and that king crimson encouraged us to take, claiming that it would be interesting - which is rare since he pretty much never says anything about any action.

King crimson · Sep 18, 2023

jonasquinn said:
@King crimson can I ask, are there any skills that Cassandra could pick up with Monkey See, Monkey Better Than You that would apply to Learning and/or Stewardship or is it primarily a Martial, Intrigue and Diplomacy thing?

It's primarily a Martial, Intrigue, and Diplomacy thing, though there are also skills Cassandra could pick up that would help with Learning and/or Stewardship though those are generally more limited in scope. It is much, much weaker on that side of things so don't expect it to be a massive boon to those things.

Nobody134 said:
Off the top of my head, architecture/engineering or any design-based talent is something that having that particular trait would help out with.

So to get into the nuances a bit, the trait would help a lot as it would enable her to have the skills necessary to properly communicate her ideas (perfectly drawn blueprints, perfectly replicated chunks of preexisting code etc.) and to execute stuff people already can do, but it doesn't convey why things work that well or help with innovation or doing something new.

Take programming for example. Cassandra could watch Nygma program on a computer and then she could perfectly replicate his code on the same computer if she needed to. From there she basically has a black box where she knows how to do X to get Y. The problem comes in the moment Cassandra needs to do Z because she's missing some of the information off of just copying someone.

So to kind of get back to the point above, Cassandra could learn to become an Edward Nygma level programmer/hacker and could basically cycle through her toolkit to achieve a lot of what he could do at the point in which she observed him. The problem is that the trait doesn't help at all with new problems or doing new things.

So for learning actions in general, she could watch Lex solve math problems and perfectly copy the motions of what he did to also become capable of solving the math problem but she'd be unable to explain the steps beyond rote physical action and she wouldn't be able to innovate.

It's good and it's useful but the trait kind of struggles with things when you aren't satisfied with mere replication without true understanding.

Edit: The trait is fantastic for having Cassandra be able to replicate others achievements/physical skills but it doesn't really help her do anything new or different from what others have already done.

Negation · Sep 18, 2023

Hence why I prefer ???? as a Trait. Richard Dragon or Bronze Tiger would be Cassandra's most suitable Martial Arts mentors. Meanwhile Armless & Legless Masters will make suitable basic martial arts teachers.

Randino Treviani · Sep 18, 2023

King crimson said:
Edit: The trait is fantastic for having Cassandra be able to replicate others achievements/physical skills but it doesn't really help her do anything new or different from what others have already done.

Eww. Sharingan knock off. No wonder I hate it.

Negation said:
Hence why I prefer ???? as a Trait. Richard Dragon or Bronze Tiger would be Cassandra's most suitable Martial Arts mentors. Meanwhile Armless & Legless Masters will make suitable basic martial arts teachers.

It'll do. I'm voting for it now though it's still 3 votes behind the two tied for the lead.

jonasquinn · Sep 18, 2023

Nobody134 said:
Any legal precedent is irrelevant and nobody can do anything to touch us. This is not a worthwhile concern.

Eh I'm not overly worried about I just figure it's a potential pain we can ignore and a good way to get into Brown's good books.

Plus we'd probably want to meet with him to figure out how much his stuff actually has in common with our own.

Nobody134 said:
First of all, this is the sort of thing that Omakes can establish. There are plenty of scenarios that you can put her in that will make this ability fairly limited (off the top of my head, being able to dance wouldn't make you understand things like choreography, being able to beatbox won't give you a sense of rhythm, and having the knifework of a world-class chef won't make you a good cook)

Secondly, being able to copy a motion doesn't mean that you can use it. if she copied the shooting technique of the best shooter in basketball she wouldn't get much out of it since things like biomechanics (limb proportions and such), strength and a sense of distance play a huge factor - she would need to adjust how she throws the ball to generate enough force when compared an adult professional player, which will alter her technique and make what she copied pretty much useless to her since she can't throw the ball the same way to get the same result.

Besides, Cassandra is already pretty much invincible or close to invincible against any enemy that doesn't have superhuman abilities of some sort in a straight-up fight. She has a Martial of 44 when fighting - that's Superman-tier.

Also, if we follow the logic of "Choosing such a good trait for her will make her arrogant" then we will also have to commit to not making Cassandra better at all since that's also going to make her more arrogant and give her something to lord over others.

Also, also, I would argue that potential personality changes from Memetic Me are not only worse, but are much more difficult to mitigate.

Fair points though I was always in favour of Monkey See anyway.

Randino Treviani said:
Then they end up in legal hell with endless retrials. People probably won't bother with this for the same reason Disney is able to get away with cheating star wars original continuation writers out of there royalties. Again, King has given us a specific, singular action to deal with the issue impeding our ration pack at this time. All we can do is take it and see if further problems arise later.

I still think it's worth tracking down Brown before he causes a problem and becomes harder to work with but we'll see.

Randino Treviani said:
The problem with monkey see, monkey better than you is it's a useful action for gains later, which requires us to invest in it by taking actions which use to improve Cassandra's abilities

It doesn't require us to do anything. KC has already confirmed that the trait is always active so if she sees Batman fighting someone in a nemesis event she can fight like Batman now, if we assign her to an action with Roxy she could come out of it having learned how to fly a jet.

It basically allows Cassandra almost limitless growth because it means that anything she does that involves another baseline human, be it with or against her, has a decent chance of her learning something she didn't already know and getting a stat upgrade from it.

Randino Treviani said:
We aren't really interested in Cassandra being a professional dancer or master surfing or learn to pole vault like the pros.

We want her inventing and leading manipulating the masses in preparation for the day she leads Lexcorp. Monkey see, monkey better than you is an op trait that none the less is worthless because it doesn't help us take Cassandra's development into the more cerebral directions we intend to pursue. I'd appreciate it if people actually consider what sort of goals we have for Cassandra and how little Monkey see, monkey better than you actually helps with them compared to raising stats or something that helps her socialize.

But a lot of that stuff would help her with things like Diplomacy or Intrigue and can be done fairly casually.

Yes it would be nice to have a trait that helps with Learning and Intrigue but we have plenty of other options for those.

King crimson said:
So to get into the nuances a bit, the trait would help a lot as it would enable her to have the skills necessary to properly communicate her ideas (perfectly drawn blueprints, perfectly replicated chunks of preexisting code etc.) and to execute stuff people already can do, but it doesn't convey why things work that well or help with innovation or doing something new.

Take programming for example. Cassandra could watch Nygma program on a computer and then she could perfectly replicate his code on the same computer if she needed to. From there she basically has a black box where she knows how to do X to get Y. The problem comes in the moment Cassandra needs to do Z because she's missing some of the information off of just copying someone.

So to kind of get back to the point above, Cassandra could learn to become an Edward Nygma level programmer/hacker and could basically cycle through her toolkit to achieve a lot of what he could do at the point in which she observed him. The problem is that the trait doesn't help at all with new problems or doing new things.

So for learning actions in general, she could watch Lex solve math problems and perfectly copy the motions of what he did to also become capable of solving the math problem but she'd be unable to explain the steps beyond rote physical action and she wouldn't be able to innovate.

It's good and it's useful but the trait kind of struggles with things when you aren't satisfied with mere replication without true understanding.

Edit: The trait is fantastic for having Cassandra be able to replicate others achievements/physical skills but it doesn't really help her do anything new or different from what others have already done.

I get you're point but I also think this is slightly underestimating Cassandra's intelligence.

Once Cassandra learns the basics of building or programming something from just watching she isn't necessarily stuck just repeating that task, she's a genius that is capable of dissecting those steps and reverse engineering it.

Negation said:
Hence why I prefer ???? as a Trait. Richard Dragon or Bronze Tiger would be Cassandra's most suitable Martial Arts mentors. Meanwhile Armless & Legless Masters will make suitable basic martial arts teachers.

To be fair Monkey See kinda also helps with that, while it's debatable of using chi counts for it it would at the very least allow Cassandra to replicate 90% of Richard Dragon or Bronze Tiger's abilities.

By the way @King crimson could I ask you about two other things regarding Monkey See?

1) Is my above statement about it allowing Cassandra to learn skills from actions that involve other people correct?
2) How does it work with non baseline humans? I know it doesn't make it an autosuccess but does it make her more likely to be able to copy them assuming it's a thing she can do?

Lex Sedet In Vertice: A Supervillain in the DCU CK2 quest

What sort of tone should I shoot for with this Quest?

Go as crack fueled as you can we want Ambush Bug, Snowflame and Duckseid

Go for something silly but keep a little bit of reason

Adam West Camp

Balanced as all things should be

Mostly serious but not self-involvedly so

Dark and brooding but with light at the end of the tunnel

We're evil and we don't want anyone to be happy

Confusion Will Be My Epitaph

Pedantic

Treize died for our sins

Pedantic

Dark Arts Enthusiast

Confusion Will Be My Epitaph

Pedantic

Confusion Will Be My Epitaph