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Handmaidens are physical teleporters who can detect the sort of magic that detects us. I can see the appeal of a Malfean Stealth Enforcer that murders anybody capable of noticing us when we're on the prowl.
Handmaidens don't target Hysh, though, they target Azyr and Chamon, and fortune + transmutation spells. I don't know that they teleport either, more that they originate in doorways/windows (I assume liminal places? but maybe not a liminal realm).

Also, given that they target spells of transmutation and Chamon, I'd be a little wary of use around Johann. I'm not sure that's what we want.

I also don't think they are that stealthy themselves.
 
I'm impressed. This isn't a truly modular spell, but it is a significant step in that direction. Once we write a paper on this, anybody in the gray college with the favor and standing to read, it is going to be able to design a customized spell just for them that does what they want it to do. For that matter, they can create multiple versions of the spell if they have the time and inclination.

That means that an enemy can never be fully certain what a Gray wizard is going to be able to do. Massively increased unpredictability means that Gray wizards are even harder to factor for in old Fuss and Feathers plans.

I mean, absent the politics sure, but I feel like Boney has warned us many times about how close to daemonology this veers. I don't think the spell will be locked down completely, but I think the details will be as highly classified as the Golds classify how the Hounds work, and not open for just any Grey Wizard who wants to learn it. It's not going to be part of the standard spellbook, if only because how easily these techniques could probably be adapted to actually daemon binding.

EDIT: Yes, I acknowledged you hedged with "with the favor and standing to read it" but I felt the point deserved emphasis.
 
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It boils down to the original wizard sin of the quest, which was an attempt to break down the boundary between Warhammer's existing systems for magic and the playerbase's absolute fear of uncertainty.

The game mechanic that if we stay in our lane we'll never miscast (or just about) was necessary for us to be able to function with the skill set we desired (rather than just hiding in an office forever), but it has had the dual effects of reducing reverence for the magic we've got our hands on and inducing a mortifying lack of willingness to put toes over the line.

I'll post sometimes about how I wish magic got treated with more respect, but I sometimes feel like the way this thread respects magic is like being a cow boy and deciding that the best way to respect a horse is to be on the other side of a nice thick fence.

It's like, if you want to be the horse whispering girl who gets her hands on the wild stallion and tames him when no one else can, you have to be willing to get into the corral with an angry horse, you know? You can't be a cool thing doer without doing the thing.

It's nice to have cool apparitions to tempt us out of that shell.

Handmaidens are physical teleporters who can detect the sort of magic that detects us. I can see the appeal of a Malfean Stealth Enforcer that murders anybody capable of noticing us when we're on the prowl.

OK, but do we actually want to be a horse whispering girl? Do we specifically want to make our money at the rodeo, or is it fine to work our way to owning a ranch of tamer horses and make use of those, even if they are not as cool and exhilarating as the wild mustangs. Maybe we want to be the cowboy who dies old, filthy rich and owning most of the local politicians instead of the ones they will make Westerns about.
 
Orc fuck up in Karegil for one, even more dangerous than a major battle since you at least have some allies in battle. We rolled a lot of low dice on escape and still managed it in the end.
Actualy thats wrong, lets look back at that clusterfuck :
[Getting out of the room: Intrigue vs Martial, 1+21=22 vs 92+15=107.]
[Positioning for imminent violence: Martial, 49+23=72.]
First we the problem was that we rolled a 1 for getting out, but them got a 72 in positioning

[Mathilde vs Orcs 1: Martial, 74+23+10(Master Swordswoman)=107 vs 76+15+10(Charge)-10(Terror)=91.]
Them a good fighting roll

[Orc morale check: 73.]
[Mathilde vs Orcs 2: Martial, 52+23+10(Master Swordswoman)=85 vs 21+15-10(Terror)=26.]
[Orc morale check: 59.]
[Any ideas?: 1.]
Them another very good fighting roll but another one to getting away.

[Mathilde vs Orcs 3: Martial, 39+23+10(Master Swordswoman)=72 vs 92+15-10(Terror)-5(Casualties)=92.]
[Orc morale check: 66.]
[How about now?: 3.]
Lost the fight but still okay roll, them a 3 on figuring how to get away.

[Mathilde vs Orcs 4: Martial, 35+23+10(Master Swordswoman)-5(Injured)=63 vs 54+15-10(Terror)-5(Casualties)=54.]
[Orc morale check: 68.]
[Seriously, think of something: 74.]
[Rolling...]
[Orc reactions: 3]
Them we again win the fight roll and finaly figure how to get away

Conclusion, there wasn't a single moment in that fight were a bad roll was folowed be a second bad roll, to not even talk of a third. The entire problem is that all bad rolls were concentrated on figuring to get away. They were very much not sequential.
 
I do remember Jovi Sunscryer, yes, but I honestly don't see the relevance to my saying, effectively, "If miscasting equals dying of being a shoddy wizard, shouldn't messing up in combat and dying equal dying of being a shitty soldier"?
I was responding to the text of the post, as I didn't arrive at the conversation until the argument got far enough from the intent behind the argument that said intent was no longer apparent. My intended point was that wizards tend to cast spells in combat, so messing up in combat could plausibly take the form of a miscast.
 
OK, but do we actually want to be a horse whispering girl? Do we specifically want to make our money at the rodeo, or is it fine to work our way to owning a ranch of tamer horses and make use of those, even if they are not as cool and exhilarating as the wild mustangs. Maybe we want to be the cowboy who dies old, filthy rich and owning most of the local politicians instead of the ones they will make Westerns about.
Yes, otherwise we would have already hung our wizard hat and asked Kragg to teach us runesmithing, and never would have tried to go inside that sunk boat. We don't have tame horses, only the firm delusion we do. And we keep jumping in the rodeo time and time again.
 
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The estimates also included Battle Wizards:

Magister and Battle Wizard are seperate tracks. Note the difference in attrition between Journeyman --> Magister and Battle Wizard --> Elite Battle Wizard.

I wouldn't say they're easily replaceable, but their normal attrition rate is higher than normal.

Describing that as purely or primarily attrition seems dubious to me? Gretel is a Journeyman who has no intention of advancing any time soon, but I wouldn't say her becoming a Border Princess is attrition; similarly, the Jades we hired on in Stirland are probably not going to bother going back for a while, but they're perfectly fine, and Panoramia delayed her exam extensively while being safely resident in Karak Eight Peaks.

I'm sure both sides do include some degree of that, but just as some people find Journeyman to be a comfortable rank, I'm sure there are plenty of Battle Wizards who either don't want to advance or consider themselves unready for it.
 
Describing that as purely or primarily attrition seems dubious to me? Gretel is a Journeyman who has no intention of advancing any time soon, but I wouldn't say her becoming a Border Princess is attrition; similarly, the Jades we hired on in Stirland are probably not going to bother going back for a while, but they're perfectly fine, and Panoramia delayed her exam extensively while being safely resident in Karak Eight Peaks.

I'm sure both sides do include some degree of that, but just as some people find Journeyman to be a comfortable rank, I'm sure there are plenty of Battle Wizards who either don't want to advance or consider themselves unready for it.
Oh, to be sure, a lot of people will choose to stay at their lower ranks, being content with where they are, but if we peg the rates of that happening to be roughly similar, we wouldn't have a disparity in the ratios of the different ranks. Also:

Both Battle Wizards and their staves have high attrition rates.
 
If having the apparition spell allowed people to make their own, i would expect gold college to have half a dozen different apparition spells, at least, instead of *checks notes* one.
 
If having the apparition spell allowed people to make their own, i would expect gold college to have half a dozen different apparition spells, at least, instead of *checks notes* one.
I mean, the Gold College has the notes that have explicitly allowed us to go out and bind another Apparition. This falls firmly under "don't poke why the College spell list is static" for Doylist reasons.
 
HAH.
Yes, we have consistently avoided battle magic, but we sure as hell have not measured our risks, carefully or otherwise.
Because the risks of learning (not even using consistently, just learning), is treated as worse than going to the chaos wastes, attacking a greater demon in melee, or trying to solo a chaos warrior.
One of Mathilde's main motivations as a character is to "chage the world we live in." She's very much willing to risk her life going into the Chaos Wastes to find a lost Karak, or to fight an entire Chaos camp to save Ljiljana, or to go into a sunken monitor to rescue the dwarves there from drowning. (Her Brave trait has been doing serious work from day 1.) But what she's historically been hesitant to do is take deadly risks when learning magic. Learning more powerful spells isn't worth risking her life to her. That's not to say she's not highly motivated to become a better mage - she very much is. She learned the Miasma the minute she realized her staff would make it safer for her. But she's always been extremely cautious when learning magic and I do not want to change that.

Many of the biggest things Mathilde has done have far less to do with how powerful the spells Mathilde can personally cast are, and far more to do with being the right mage in the right place at the right time: Leading the army of Stirland after Abelhelm's fall. Rallying the recruitment for the K8P expedition. Constructing the Eye of Gazul with help from the Grey College and Kragg the Grim. Translating Queekish. Going High Chaos Corvo on the Black College. Turning the leyline off to rescue Karak Vlag. Assembling the Avengers Waystone Project. What none of these needed was for Mathilde to be standing on a battlefield throwing around Battle Magic. There are Grey Battle Mages who can cast far more powerful spells than Mathilde can, but they would've never been able to do any of what Mathilde has accomplished. So personally, I think we've actually been really damn good at measuring our risks.
 
Handmaidens don't target Hysh, though, they target Azyr and Chamon, and fortune + transmutation spells. I don't know that they teleport either, more that they originate in doorways/windows (I assume liminal places? but maybe not a liminal realm).

Also, given that they target spells of transmutation and Chamon, I'd be a little wary of use around Johann. I'm not sure that's what we want.

I also don't think they are that stealthy themselves.

Even if Handmaidens dont teleport, our ambush version could do it via the summon mechanic. I'm still sad we cant turn them into invisible pouncing cats with iron claws, but even without premium re-skin value they would have nice utility for us
 
My point was not that it is 20% necessarily it is that there is a replacement rate, the average battle mage dies in a matter of years not decades and as long as the Sylvania campaign did not kill more than usual of them to miscasts we would not be informed of it anymore than we would be informed the sky is blue.
First and foremost I would like to see citation for battle wizards having a lifespan of years. And while we are at it a citation for primary cause of said short lifespan being miscasts rather then enemy action.

Furthermore, l would like to remind you, that the information about lack of major miscasts came not from a dialog between wizards but a dialog with Roswita. To her none of wizard staff would be common knowledge, let alone the stuff that would lead to her consistently losing soldiers to friendly fire. That would also mean that if catastrophic miscasts were as common as you try to portray them, she would be made aware even if Feldman failed to tell her. Just from casualty reports.

Tl;dr: there is nothing and I mean NOTHING in the actual text indicating that Battlewizards in Sylvania suffered any miscast induced casualties at all, let alone the 20% you suggested. And if you want to argue this point I would like to preemptively request citations instead of speculation.
 
Oh, to be sure, a lot of people will choose to stay at their lower ranks, being content with where they are, but if we peg the rates of that happening to be roughly similar, we wouldn't have a disparity in the ratios of the different ranks. Also:

I'm not sure that's a safe assumption to make, though, since becoming an Elite Battle Wizard would seem to involve learning higher-tier battle magic (which is riskier), whereas becoming a Magister comes with fairly few downsides, and being a Battle Wizard already seems to bring most of its upsides insofar as Battle Wizards get any of those before LM.

I do acknowledge they have a higher attrition rate, I'm just not sure we can reasonably derive it from these numbers.

I mean, the Gold College has the notes that have explicitly allowed us to go out and bind another Apparition. This falls firmly under "don't poke why the College spell list is static" for Doylist reasons.

As far as a Watsonian explanation, the Gold College as an institution is shaped by the fact that one of their most useful spells has decent odds of leaving you as an in-patient in a mental health facility when cast 100% correctly. A certain degree of institutional caution seems liable to develop from that, even before getting into any inflexibility resulting from the nature of their wind.
 
One of Mathilde's main motivations as a character is to "chage the world we live in." She's very much willing to risk her life going into the Chaos Wastes to find a lost Karak, or to fight an entire Chaos camp to save Ljiljana, or to go into a sunken monitor to rescue the dwarves there from drowning. (Her Brave trait has been doing serious work from day 1.) But what she's historically been hesitant to do is take deadly risks when learning magic. Learning more powerful spells isn't worth risking her life to her. That's not to say she's not highly motivated to become a better mage - she very much is. She learned the Miasma the minute she realized her staff would make it safer for her. But she's always been extremely cautious when learning magic and I do not want to change that.
I don't really like taking the thread's decisions, translating them to Mathilde's characterisation, and then making decisions based on that characterisation. It feels like locking ourselves down to whatever we've done in the past.
 
We did roll a lot of low dice there, but they were interspersed with several medium and a few high dice too.

We kept failing the extraction rolls, but we also kept winning the fighting rolls enough to force the orcs into morale checks.

We just were behind enemy lines so orcs were essentially numberless.

But we did not roll low dice several times in a row.
Or Mathilde would truly be dead.
Off topic, but I like thinking that if Mathilde ever ends up in the same situation again, the orcs being down 15 points (and Mathilde up 2) would make things much more in her favor.
I don't really like taking the thread's decisions, translating them to Mathilde's characterisation, and then making decisions based on that characterisation. It feels like locking ourselves down to whatever we've done in the past.
I'm really happy with how those decisions worked out in the past, and I think making similar decisions will likely keep giving us results I'll be happy with in the future.

IIRC, a lot of people were against ever learning Battle Magic ever. But when we got the Staff, we changed that and both learned the Miasma and created the RoW. So I don't think our choices are locked in stone forever.
 
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Even if Handmaidens dont teleport, our ambush version could do it via the summon mechanic. I'm still sad we cant turn them into invisible pouncing cats with iron claws, but even without premium re-skin value they would have nice utility for us
Sure, but then why them vs any other apparition? That's what I'm stuck on here. What's so special about handmaidens? Again, Black Essence is anti-necromancy, and whispering darkness is anti necromancy + anti-chaos + fog. Not attacking here, just trying to figure it out. Because the explanation given didn't fit the facts available. (It's cool is totally a legitimate answer).
 
I don't really like taking the thread's decisions, translating them to Mathilde's characterisation, and then making decisions based on that characterisation. It feels like locking ourselves down to whatever we've done in the past.

While I'm in favor of Battle Magic, since Mathilde's characterization is shaped by the thread's decisions for her, I'm not sure to what extent you can avoid doing that unless you're willing to discard her characterization as a factor entirely. And while I trust Boney to be able to, generally speaking, write the options we pick, I feel that doing so would result in a weaker quest, on the whole.
 
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