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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Valmond said:
Rider is he wrong apparition for bodyguard.
And part of the whole rider thing was ability to actually fuck people up without having to go into melee range, which bodyguard is severaly limited as.

Charge and Duel are just more effective as combat spells, and bodyguard is at its best in situations where you are least likely to actually have used it, or most likely to not want a dude on horse.
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The times when Mathilde will want a bodyguard are either when she is going into melee to kill a fucker(offensive Bodyguard use is glorious that way) because that's where she's the most killy, or when she's already in melee and not free to cast spells(and thus wants a meatshield to either buy her time or make it easier to kill them). If she's not in melee then either its because she doesn't need to be(gunshots are good enough), or she's not in combat.

So, you know, basically whenever Mathilde is in combat. Main exception would be if she's in tunnels or a building with too short of a ceiling, but the charge would be worthless there too.

T_of_A said:
Oh, please. Casting one bodyguard repeatedly requires us to spend AP for each Bodyguard we capture and bind. That will most likely never happen !
Realistically it's a choice between one bodyguard or a group of fighters who best suit the Dammerlichtreiter's form. The tactical utility of a charge is excellent, it'll be the safest Grey Attack BM, and by your logic we can spend an action to make a better-suited Bodyguard Apparition.


I think he'd have died almost instantly actually. Mathilde could go invisible and regularly reposition, but he's just a horseman who needs Mathilde's effort and attention to hide and redeploy.

@Boney, would a Rider be affected by our Cloud of Confusion ?
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I mean, we'll need to spend that bonus AP anyways if we go for Trio or Lance, but fair point, that's why I'm still voting for Trio despite One theoretically being capable of the same. That said, even if you're ignoring the "capture multiple costing AP" aspect, it will still always be safer to be casting Bodyguard ahead of time than trying to cast battle magic while in combat and people can try to either charge or shoot you. Also, if you want to make a decent effort post for people going for Trio instead of One, you might just win, the gap isn't that big and I could be convinced to change my vote there.

As for him dying almost instantly, uhhh, Mathilde wasn't going invisible and repositioning, or even really in combat much in the Black College until she'd gotten to the Vamp himself, who if nothing else could have potentially been stalled by a wall of horseflesh long enough for Mathilde to try stabbing him with her sword. I don't even think the assassinations before that would even trigger it, so the hide and redeploy bit is literally irrelevant.

naths said:
Re: the argument that we have better 'fuck that group over there' spells

We only do, if we actually learn those battlemagic spells. As you can see from the current debate, this isnt certain at all. So it is very possible that we do not actually have any such spell. (a spell that we refuse to learn is effectively one that doesnt exist in our lineup)
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Thats fair, but that doesn't change that Bodyguard will be more commonly useful, and more important in the times when it is useful(the spicy melee fights where Mathilde can't cast to fuck off). Beyond which, if people are willing to be using a battle magic version of this spell, then they'll probably become willing to start using other battle magic too. Apparition ain't magically risk free after all, it has all the same dangers and problems.
 
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I gotta admit, when we first got introduced to the apparition binding, I didn't like it. I actually really didn't like it.

Now my stance has turned 180 degrees on it. It's awesome! Such modularity and breadth of options for spell-crafting. Getting to choose (to a point) the aesthetics, the effect, the combat purpose and the potency...

I love it.
 
naths said:
Re: the argument that we have better 'fuck that group over there' spells

We only do, if we actually learn those battlemagic spells. As you can see from the current debate, this isnt certain at all. So it is very possible that we do not actually have any such spell. (a spell that we refuse to learn is effectively one that doesnt exist in our lineup)
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Part of the point in that argument wasn't just for Mathilde specifically, but for codifying the spell as something that could be passed down to the rest of the College. It wasn't about Mathilde herself, but developing something with intent to teach.

Now, there's still quite a bit of debate about whether we want to actually do that, either with this version of the spell or at all, but that's an entire different matter, and not a clean sort into one camp or the other.
 
So one thing that I think should be noted is how the Bodyguard spell synergizes with RoW. Namely because RoW will already be encouraging Grey Order Wizards to be a part of a cavalry charge or work closely with a Cavalry unit, so having a mounted knight or three who's sole job is keeping that wizard alive would be rather useful.

Also if we do end up making this spell merely Fiendishly Complex then I want to teach it to Eike at some point before she goes on her journeying.
 
cheesyme said:
The times when Mathilde will want a bodyguard are either when she is going into melee to kill a fucker(offensive Bodyguard use is glorious that way) because that's where she's the most killy, or when she's already in melee and not free to cast spells(and thus wants a meatshield to either buy her time or make it easier to kill them). If she's not in melee then either its because she doesn't need to be(gunshots are good enough), or she's not in combat.

So, you know, basically whenever Mathilde is in combat. Main exception would be if she's in tunnels or a building with too short of a ceiling, but the charge would be worthless there too.
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Both would be served just as well by duel/charge most of the time, if not better.
And non Mathilde wizards who did not decide that they are not actually wizards would get far more mileage out of charge/duel that they can cast from outside melee range to go hit some big beefy enemy who wants to melee them.
Not to mention tht, being a rider, means there will be very strict limitations on where the rider can be used, it needs certain amount of space to exist in, and more to fight effectively.
Meaning that it becomes let less useful in small spaces that a more sneaky grey wizard might find themselves in need of some melee aid.
 
naths said:
Re: the argument that we have better 'fuck that group over there' spells

We only do, if we actually learn those battlemagic spells. As you can see from the current debate, this isnt certain at all. So it is very possible that we do not actually have any such spell. (a spell that we refuse to learn is effectively one that doesnt exist in our lineup)
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Mathilde herself already has a 'fuck that group spell' named Assassinate Leader In Cool Sword Fight anyway, the narrative hasn't ever had a point where she was unable to meaningfully contribute to a big battle.

Anyway, one thing that makes me not like Bodyguard is that Mathilde herself is at a point of fighting skill where having a big horse at her back hinders her more than it helps. It don't foresee much teamwork with an Apparition and a big sword requires space.
 
The Phoenixian said:
Part of the point in that argument wasn't just for Mathilde specifically, but for codifying the spell as something that could be passed down to the rest of the College. It wasn't about Mathilde herself, but developing something with intent to teach.

Now, there's still quite a bit of debate about whether we want to actually do that, either with this version of the spell or at all, but that's an entire different matter, and not a clean sort into one camp or the other.
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I think that we only ever spend the AP on codifying the spell if it proves useful to us first. Otherwise the action will get swallowed in AP hell. So the spell should first and foremost be designed to be as useful as possible to us. There will be useful utility for other grey wizards either way
 
One and Bodyguard or Charge seems like a sensible option.

Sure, one isn't as impactful as more but it makes it much safer and more reliable to use. Both for us and for potential other grey wizards if we codify it.
There's a limited quantity of wizards that can cast battle magic, and most of those already have a lot of very dangerous things they can do. Giving such a direct combat application to other greys will be helpful for survival rate, like the fireball ring we returned to the Bright college, that they give to Journeymen to keep them safer.
One also makes the most sense for the form we picked, a group of Dämmerlichtreiters would not make any sense at all.

Bodyguard fits what we wanted it for, in that it protects us in situations where we're outnumbered or outclassed. It also allows pre-casting, which reduces the amount of casting while fighting that's necessary.
On the other hand, it doesn't do as much in larger scale battles or if we're trying to defend someone other than us.
Charge has the opposite benefits from Bodyguard, in that it'll be very helpful in battles or when trying to... Actually now that I think about it, Charge wouldn't be great in situations where we're trying to kill someone who's surrounded by our allies or civilians. Like with Alberich. Yeah. I'm opposed to Charge and Duel because their use cases are so limited.

Directed just doesn't make sense to me unless we were to go for a large number of Riders, because replacing our own direct contributions to a battlefield with that of one or maybe 3 dangerous fighters doesn't feel like that much of an upgrade. Also might make us vulnerable to being ambushed while focusing on this.
Moreover, Ulgu already has some very dangerous magic at high level battle magic.

[X] [BEHAVIOUR] Bodyguard
[X] [NUMBER] One
 
Valmond said:
Both would be served just as well by duel/charge most of the time, if not better.
And non Mathilde wizards who did not decide that they are not actually wizards would get far more mileage out of charge/duel that they can cast from outside melee range to go hit some big beefy enemy who wants to melee them.
Not to mention tht, being a rider, means there will be very strict limitations on where the rider can be used, it needs certain amount of space to exist in, and more to fight effectively.
Meaning that it becomes let less useful in small spaces that a more sneaky grey wizard might find themselves in need of some melee aid.
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I mean no, both will not necessarily be served just as well by Duel/Charge most of the time, because in order for Duel/Charge to be usable, you need to be free to safely cast a Battle Magic grade spell. That ain't guaranteed, especially if you aren't the one initiating. Bodyguard meanwhile can be cast an hour ahead of time.

For non Mathilde wizards, its a lot less useful offensively, sure. That said, its a lot more useful for them defensively, as most Grey Wizards are neither as killy nor as survivable in sudden melee. And ganking the squishy wizard is 100% a tactic every faction you might fight will use.

I will grant you it needs a certain amount of space to be effective, but that's striking literally all uses of it, and its still a good "oh shit" contingency for a wizard in most battles. That said, its bulk also makes it harder to bypass in tighter areas, so as long as we're looking at say, in a street as opposed to literally inside a hallway with normal human height ceilings(Warhammer tends to build big in their castles and such, so not that common)? It should still work just fine as a meatshield if nothing else.
CeBrudras said:
Mathilde herself already has a 'fuck that group spell' named Assassinate Leader In Cool Sword Fight anyway, the narrative hasn't ever had a point where she was unable to meaningfully contribute to a big battle.

Anyway, one thing that makes me not like Bodyguard is that Mathilde herself is at a point of fighting skill where having a big horse at her back hinders her more than it helps. It don't foresee much teamwork with an Apparition and a big sword requires space.
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That's possible, but the bodyguard could also be on the other side of Mathilde's target from her, or warding off mooks from her sides and back as opposed to just standing right next to her. Furthermore, while yes she's using a greatsword, its also a weapon that can teleport in and out of her hands as needed. Fair point though!
Kiera said:
One and Bodyguard or Charge seems like a sensible option.
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I still kinda like Trio more, because that's still reasonably doable(especially precast for Bodyguard) while tripling the minions on the field, but otherwise yeah I agree with this post.
 
I think a lot of people are assuming that summoning only one will be non-Battle Magic when that doesn't seem to be true. I honestly feel like that's leaving a lot of power on the table to take a huge gamble that it might be notably easier to cast. That seems...not great.
 
@Boney if we ended up catching a Handmaiden for another apparition spell, would we be able to give her something better than iron nails? Like, something that can get through steel armor?
 
You know, the more the narrative goes on, the more suspicious I become that the Knights of Judgement are secretly a Band count apparition cataclysm spell. Sure there's... probably? more than ten at once? but there's a few ways you could get a lot of them all at once. They don't quite fit with the behaviors Mathilde has available except maybe Directed, but something meant to be one knight of many might have different behavioral options than Mathilde's own theming did.
 
Thinking about it, Duel and Charge seem more deniable regarding the nature of the spell since they are kinda just very weird projectiles. They will also usually be running away from any worried allies upon deployment so those concerns from the last vote will be removed.
The Bodyguard seems much more like something we would need to awkwardly pre-explain to those fighting alongside us.

cheesyme said:
I mean no, both will not necessarily be served just as well by Duel/Charge most of the time, because in order for Duel/Charge to be usable, you need to be free to safely cast a Battle Magic grade spell. That ain't guaranteed, especially if you aren't the one initiating. Bodyguard meanwhile can be cast an hour ahead of time.

For non Mathilde wizards, its a lot less useful offensively, sure. That said, its a lot more useful for them defensively, as most Grey Wizards are neither as killy nor as survivable in sudden melee. And ganking the squishy wizard is 100% a tactic every faction you might fight will use.
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Battlemagic pre-casting seems pretty awkward, though. You are risking a lot for something you might not need. Mathilde will likely often decide that she is good enough that the spell is riskier than a solo fight and the squishy person would also need to weight the chance of embarassingly taking himself out of the battle via miscast before there is even enemy contact against the benefit of the spells insurance.

We also need to consider than Bodyguard will quite often compete against the well-known basic spell Hire Mercenary. Mathilde usually gets into the kind of situations where that is impractical, but for a hypothethical squishy BM-grade Grey the option of trading coin for protection and permanently dragging along the result in meatspace will be available more often.

Does the existing Lore have any similar examples of BM pre-casts to protect the Caster themselves? My impression of the hounds is that they are a lot more proactive.
 
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