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I mean, they're there already, by all accounts. Dhar doesn't appreciably stop greenskins unless it's in nastily high quantities. At least this way there's a few less kinds of other nasty gribblies that can come screaming out of the woods. Plus, as noted, with actually good crop yields and a healthier population, within a generation or two, the Empire might even be able to expand into those spaces again.
There's also how Mathilde has already spread Waaaghbane. Unlike Dhar or Necromancy, you can more effectively dispel and induce miscasts on Waaagh magic without knowing how to use it. Not to say greenskins aren't a danger without their magic, but you get my point.
 
I really like this idea. The biggest problem with making a settlement work in the Border Princes is that a big Waaagh will come through and destroy everything:

Having more warning would let them start evacuating people and stuff sooner. I suspect Warrior of Fog and Windherder would be enough to traits to justify the idea of making an early warning system. The big problems would be if you can detect Waaagh energy like the Winds and transmitting the detection to the settlement. Also I don' know how many AP we want to sink into making a system for Gretel when we don't really need Border Prince Settlement favor.
hmm...Depending on how sensitive you could make this sort of system, maybe it can just pick up the strongest confluence of Waaagh energy, give a basic direction to it. Then if you build a few of them spaced far enough apart, you can triangulate potential greenskin buildups before they reach dangerous levels, or at least give a general area.
Sort of like how passive SOSUS networks were constructed.
 
[x] [RIDER] The Dämmerlichtreiter

I like the idea of using Stirlandian folk legends to strengthen our hold over an aethyric being. It just feels right.
 
So looking over the options the Dämmerlichtreiter option seems best.

I also think it may actually be better than a Hexwraith in terms of causing fear, mostly in necromancers and black magisters.

It's similar to a Hexwraith, wearing a witch hunter's hat on top of that and welding a sword while clad in Ulgu, it's a combination what is likely several of their biggest fears into one being and they have no idea what it is capable of or how to fight it.
 
hmm...Depending on how sensitive you could make this sort of system, maybe it can just pick up the strongest confluence of Waaagh energy, give a basic direction to it. Then if you build a few of them spaced far enough apart, you can triangulate potential greenskin buildups before they reach dangerous levels, or at least give a general area.
Sort of like how passive SOSUS networks were constructed.
I mean, the general area is almost always going to be a few hundred miles into the Badlands though. Im not sure that having that information would make it possible to actually prevent a Waaagh, because you'd need to get someone (or, even harder, an army) out there to do somethign about it.
 
With the new side story being a reference to Lord Ulric and the Making of the World I figure it might be time to post some of my notes on it. This was originally meant to be part of a larger post on the three canonical myths of the Coming of Chaos, but that post might never get written because it keeps getting longer and I keep getting distracted (and also the side story threw a bunch of wrenches into my theories*). This post isn't going to go over all of that myth because it's very long (almost 2000 words), so for now I'll just make some observations about the reliability - or lack thereof - of that myth. I'll spoiler the rest of this post to avoid making it too much of a distraction in the middle of a vote.
Three myths on the Coming of Chaos are given to us by canonical sources. One is a tale told by Markus Fischer (henceforth referred to as MF), one is an excerpt from a source known only as the Obernarn Stone (henceforth OS) and the third is the myth Lord Ulric and the Making of the World (henceforth LUMW). The OS gives a pretty long list of the Gods involved in the Coming of Chaos, but is pretty sparse in details about what they actually did (most attention is given to Taal, but even there OS doesn't go into a lot of detail). MF gives a relatively high amount of details on the exploits of Hoeth/Verena, but it barely mentions other Gods. In some way LUMW is the best of all worlds, as while it's obviously focused on Ulric it also tells us about a number of other Gods and it gives a decent amount of detail on the events that took place during the Coming of Chaos. This is the myth which tells of Ranald escaping and burying Himself beneath the desert sands, and of the three it's the longest one by a very wide margin. Unfortunately, it's also the only one that contains very clear falsehoods.

Now just to be clear, it's reasonable to suspect all the myths of being written by unreliable authors driven by motives such as painting some specific God in the best light, or of containing mistakes or mistranslations, but LUMW is especially bad in this regard. The OS is a stone of unclear origin and the MF tale is a story "from the Asur", but LUMW is from "an ancient collection of legends which is now a religious relic kept in the Temple of Ulric in the city of Middenheim", which might mean that there's reason to suspect that the story has been modified and interpreted to fit the Cult of Ulric's narrative. The Gods mentioned in LUMW are precisely the pantheons that are currently worshipped in the Old World - all of the Old Pantheon plus all of the Classical Pantheon save Myrmidia, which fits the Gods currently worshipped in the Empire a bit too neatly. The most clear-cut reason to suspect it is the fact that LUMW provides an origin story for the Skaven and a story about how humanity learned to work metals, both of which are contradicted by other reliable sources. It's also clear that LUMW doesn't give us a full picture, as it's mentioned that some dragons and unnamed lesser Gods were allies of the Gods and fought with them against Chaos but that isn't expanded on anywhere else in the tale.

What I want to focus on most is two ways in which this myth contradicts the other myths. First is the matter of the cast of characters. The list of Gods that appear in LUMW has a lot of overlap with OS, with two crucial differences. Three Gods that appear in OS aren't mentioned in LUMW, those Gods being Sotek, Margileo, and a certain 'Flaming Phoenix' who isn't named but from context is almost certainly Asuryan. Additionally, there's one God that's mentioned in LUMW but not in OS, Rhya. Both of those changes are ones we can expect from a myth written or collated by Imperials, as the three Gods removed are either non-Imperial or in the case of Margileo a non-major God in the modern Empire (Margileo is worshipped in Averland but is extremely minor) while the one added Goddess is an important one in the modern Empire and so clearly "should" be in this kind of myth.

Second is the matter of Verena's sword. In both LUMW and MF Verena picks a sword in response to the Coming of Chaos, but the origins of that sword are very different. In MF the sword is an Old One artifact called "Tlanxla's Sword of Judgement", cleverly stolen from Daemon God called Ulgu. In LUMW the sword is actually Morr's sword, which Verena takes when Morr refuses to respond to the Coming of Chaos, thereby shaming Him and the other Gods into action.

What I want to claim in this post is that a careful reading of the myth actually provides decently good evidence that these two discrepancies are later additions or edits made to the original myth.

Regarding Rhya, LUMW starting with a "dramatis personae" listing the Gods that will be involved in the story: Taal, Rhya, Manann, Morr, Verena, Ulric and a bit later Ranald. Shallya isn't mentioned yet because in this myth She is only born after the Coming of Chaos. Here is the first mention of Rhya in the tale:

"Father Taal and Mother Rhya tended the things of the land, and their son Manann was master of the things of the sea. Morr was king of the darkness, and Verena the queen of the light, and so all was in balance. In the high summers, Lord Ulric, brother of Taal and prince of the snow and ice, had no realm to tend to, so he had taken to walking the earth and the sky and the stars to seek adventure."

Later Ulric comes back from the north pole to tell everyone of the incoming Chaos incursion, and the story tells how He goes around asking each God for help, and all of Them ignore Him save Verena:

"His brother Taal did not believe that there could be another world beyond his, and Manann had no care for things of the land. Great King Morr believed Ulric's story, but did not see a great danger -- certainly it was nothing Ulric himself could not handle. Ulric despaired, knowing that even now the Chaos hordes must be pouring into their world, led by their own great and hideous gods, ready to destroy all they had made. Finally, he appealed to Queen Verena, and in her wisdom, she saw that the danger was indeed very real and very great, and that these fiends would destroy all of the Beauty and Reason she had created."

Did you notice who is missing? Ranald isn't there because He escaped, and Shallya isn't there because She wasn't born yet, but where is Rhya? Rhya is mentioned exactly once more in the story, when the Gods fight Chaos:

"Behind him rode King Morr, bringing the darkness of death, and Queen Verena with her sword of light, and Father Taal with the fury of the lion, and Mother Rhya with the strength of the mother bear, and Manaan brought the sea forth into the field[...]"

That's it. A single offhand mention when the Gods are all listed, a single offhand mention when the Gods are all described fighting Chaos, and nothing else. This is exactly how I would expect the myth to look if Rhya was a later addition: she's added in sections where all Gods are listed right after Taal, but doesn't actually play any role in the story beyond that. Hardly definitive proof, but along with Her absence from the Obernarn stone I do think there's reason to be suspicious.

As for Verena's sword, here's the first mention of Verena taking it:

"She swore that even if her husband would not act, she would, and she took up her husband's sword and rode out to battle with brave Lord Ulric."

And later, when the Gods are fighting Chaos:

"Behind him rode King Morr, bringing the darkness of death, and Queen Verena with her sword of light[...]"

Do you see the problem here? The sword is supposedly Morr's, yet it's described as Verena's sword of light. At the very start Morr is described as king of darkness and Verena as queen of light, so why would Morr's sword be a sword of light? In fact, a bit later in the myth it's said that Morr wasn't much of a warrior at all:

"Morr was no great warrior, and Ulric had proven his wisdom in seeing the danger, so Morr gave over to Ulric command of all the gods' forces, and Ulric thence became the god of battle."

which makes one wonder why He had a sword at all. Again, there's no hard proof here, but it's not difficult to imagine reasons for why LUMW might get this wrong. Possibly it's because the Ulricans don't want any other God to have a martial aspect to Them, especially not a woman (Myrmidia is absent from this tale, after all). Maybe it's a misunderstanding or a mistranslation or a different interpretation of the story MF tells - Hoeth stole a sword from the Lore of Shadows, Verena steals a sword from the King of Darkness. There's actually another part later in LUMW which involves Morr and which I strongly suspect to be a similar misunderstanding/mistranslation, but I'll leave that for a future post which may or may not ever actually get written.

Anyway, this was a lot of words on a few very minor points, but hopefully someone will find at least some of this a bit interesting.


*I had intended to title the last section of that post "Lord Boney and the Fanfic of the Gods", so seeing the title of that sidestory was even more of a mindfuck than it otherwise would've been.
 
I mean, the general area is almost always going to be a few hundred miles into the Badlands though. Im not sure that having that information would make it possible to actually prevent a Waaagh, because you'd need to get someone (or, even harder, an army) out there to do somethign about it.
The idea isn't to stop the Waaagh before it rolls through, it's to have enough warning to evacuate the settlement of people, cattle, and valuables to behind dwarven walls (or up Black Fire pass or K8P for the cattle). It sucks if the Waaagh knocks over the buildings, but they can be rebuilt more easily that people, cattle, and valuables can be replaced. Gretel wants to push back the Greenskins far enough to make this all possible, but monitoring for Greenskins on the amount of land she is talking about with the number of people she has would be difficult, and a Waaagh detection system seems very helpful for her.
If we can push the Black Spider Forest Goblins north of the Skull River tributary then I'll have enough breathing space to turn my attention south and work with Ulrikadrin to finally do something permanent about Iron Rock and start settling all the land between Blood River and the Forest of Gloom. At that point we'd be looking at tens of million of acres of rangeland framed by rivers, and any direction a Waaagh comes in, they can be held back for just long enough to get not just the people, but also the herds and valuables to safety.
The main reason I can see this not happening is that Mathilde is probably the only person with the knowledge and skills to build it, and we don't need anything from Gretel that I can think of.
 
I mean, the general area is almost always going to be a few hundred miles into the Badlands though. Im not sure that having that information would make it possible to actually prevent a Waaagh, because you'd need to get someone (or, even harder, an army) out there to do somethign about it.
The idea isn't to stop the Waaagh before it rolls through, it's to have enough warning to evacuate the settlement of people, cattle, and valuables to behind dwarven walls (or up Black Fire pass or K8P for the cattle). It sucks if the Waaagh knocks over the buildings, but they can be rebuilt more easily that people, cattle, and valuables can be replaced. Gretel wants to push back the Greenskins far enough to make this all possible, but monitoring for Greenskins on the amount of land she is talking about with the number of people she has would be difficult, and a Waaagh detection system seems very helpful for her.
Yeah, that's fair. Prevention is the ideal option, probably the least achievable. On the other hand, a few hundred miles of advanced warning is at least a few days of prep time to spread word, evacuate, muster defenses. It depends on how hard the greenskins are pushing.

If the dwarfs have access to that information, it might even be possible to vector gyrocopters/gyrobombers to the brewing hotspots if there's enough time. And Eight Peaks has a dwarf Loremaster who is happily theorizing Air Cav Ironbreakers, which would be ideal for that sort of suppression mission.
You have to have Okri Drakkisson of Clan Bronzebeard pointed out to you, though once he is you're easily able to identify him due to some sort of multi-lensed loupe strapped to his forehead. "Loremaster Okri?"

"Aye?" he says as he turns. "Ah, you must be my predecessor. I hear you've left mighty large shoes to fill."

"More of a clear slate to build on what you wish."

"Aye, and build I will. That Gotri does his best but his heart is in the sky, he's more familiar with a swashplate than an inclined plane. The way of the future is in Dwarf-portable weaponry, and Zhufbar's Drakegun is just the start. I had a few ideas to start with, but having seen some of the reading material you managed to nab from the former inhabitants of here, I've got much more than a few now. Been working with the manling engineers here, including that Zharrzhufokri of yours, and have been exchanging letters with the Gorlzhufokral to hammer out a few ideas. We refound Karak Eight Peaks Ironbreakers, give 'em something that holds real punch but can still be carried around, and pile 'em into those flying machines of Gotri's, and we'll be able to deliver a proper kicking to anywhere that needs it on a moment's notice."

You allow him to talk your ear half off about said ideas, including an entirely mechanical equivalent of the Ratling Gun, an explosive charge launcher based on Adela's design but not reliant on being carried by a Bright Wizard, and refinements to be made to the current Drakegun designs to extend their range and increase the damage inflicted upon those caught on the wrong end of them, before you thank him for his time and escape. He's clearly ambitious and seems to know what he's talking about, but you can't help but feel he might be biting off more than he can chew. You're intimately familiar with the inside of a Ratling Gun and the many insane yet inspired ways it exploits the nature of warpstone to function. Is there really any chance of a machine so portable as to be carried to be able to replicate its functioning? Surely not.

Edit addendum: And yes, there is a large part of me that is nerding out over the mental picture of Ironbreaker Dwarfs taking copters all over the Badlands to stomp out problems. (Stereotypical air cav music may or may not be playing over this imaginary scene.)
 
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I think one of the most powerful things you could send in to deal with a budding waagh is 'a Mathilde', we have a record of head-capping multiple warbosses and have only grown more lethal since, especially to man sized targets.
 
I think one of the most powerful things you could send in to deal with a budding waagh is 'a Mathilde', we have a record of head-capping multiple warbosses and have only grown more lethal since, especially to man sized targets.
Entirely true, but getting a Mathilde there isn't going to always be possible. She spends a lot of time an entire continent away.
 
I do want to get screeching Kislevite charges, but from the options that have a chance to win there's one amusing at least
MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEOWsorry

[x] [SEVIROSCOPE] Visual
[x] [RIDER] Knight
- [x] Winged Lancer
[x] [RIDER] Great Cat Knight
 
I think one of the most powerful things you could send in to deal with a budding waagh is 'a Mathilde', we have a record of head-capping multiple warbosses and have only grown more lethal since, especially to man sized targets.
Entirely true, but getting a Mathilde there isn't going to always be possible. She spends a lot of time an entire continent away.
I think a lot of our best works in this quest have been things that don't need a Mathilde to continue to work, but still massively benefit the world. The Eye of Gazul, the return of Vlag, the Waystone project, the Skaven books, the Waaghbane information, the discovery of AV and (hopefully) MOrbs and liminal realm creation, the rooms of Calamity in the colleges, the alliance with the We, Kron-Azril-Ungol...
Yeah, Mathilde's gotten very good at murking the gribblies, but she has a certain penchant for things that don't need her once they're complete. Gives me big "Planting trees under whose shade they will never sit" vibes, which I'm not afraid to say is one of my favorite themes.
 
Barak Varr is the one backing Gretel's settlement in Vitrolle by the Howling River, because she is "Barak Varr's chosen implement in securing the road between them and Mad Dog Pass". While Gretel doesn't have the resources to hire us to build an early Waaaghning system, Barak Varr does. They might consider building such a system a good way to protect their investment in Gretel, and it would help secure the East Trail for them.
Questions for Boney:
  1. Is it a viable idea for us to try and build a system to detect Waaaghs forming in time to either intervene or evacuate anything in it's path?
  2. Could we take an action to see if Barak Varr would be interested in hiring WEB-MAT to build such a system?
  3. If so would that be a personal action under Foreign Relations or would it be a WEB-MAT action?
 
Waaaaagh detection systems already exist in the form of scouts, and rapid information transmission mechanisms are gyrocopters.

I would be more worried about detecting smaller scale stuff than a massive waaaagh
 
Random thought: you know what would be truly wild? If the Grey Order's Knights of Judgement are actually bound Apparitions and Mathilde's invention is totally redundant.


Yeah, Mathilde's gotten very good at murking the gribblies, but she has a certain penchant for things that don't need her once they're complete. Gives me big "Planting trees under whose shade they will never sit" vibes, which I'm not afraid to say is one of my favorite themes.

I rather like it when achievements enable further growth - the Kron-Azril-Ungol is amazing because it builds up on all of Mathilde's decisions: helping reclaim K8P and defending it from Birdmuncha's Waaagh; befriending the We; setting the Waystone project near an ancient and reclusive library and so forth (and then even that can fractally go down - clearing the Skaven was enabled by reading the Liber Mortis for example).

This is so much more satisfying (at least for me) compared just having a 'generic' equivalent Boon would be: the Kron-Azril-Ungol is very much the ripe fruit of Mathilde's labours.


hmm...Depending on how sensitive you could make this sort of system, maybe it can just pick up the strongest confluence of Waaagh energy, give a basic direction to it. Then if you build a few of them spaced far enough apart, you can triangulate potential greenskin buildups before they reach dangerous levels, or at least give a general area.
Sort of like how passive SOSUS networks were constructed.

That seems a bit overly ambitious. The area is huge and there's bound to be a lot of passive Waaagh emissions. It'd take an enormously large and complex system to map concentrations of Waaagh energy and differentiate 100 nearby goblins from 10000 orcs miles and miles away.

It doesn't really seem practical at the current tech level.
 
I would be fine with the Dämmerlichtreiter, but apparently it's going to look recognizably like Mathilde and I:

1. Think it's cringe to hand out a spell that creates an apparition with her face to other wizards.

2. Don't want to spend another AP developing a new "skin" just so we can hand the spell out without cringe.
 
I wonder what Wisdom's Asps represent under this school of thought. The fear of changing so you don't recognise yourself in the mirror combined with the fear of a silent assassination, possibly with a touch of the self-destructive and seductive allure of forbidden knowledge?

Looks at Mathilde's entire career.

Huh.
Now I am wondering what sort of spells could be made from Wisdom's Asps by other Colleges. I mean ideally you would have everyone hunt each others so everyone has few people dying and more spell options.

Maybe the Bright Order for a stealth assassination option or a minion that will stick around? Or the Celestial for a sudden lightning strike snake? Assuming they don't do a shape change. Though I think turning it into a winged serpent would both be cool and be a good way to obscure the origins. I mean clearly that is just a bit of magical knowledge taken from Lustria no?
 
I would be fine with the Dämmerlichtreiter, but apparently it's going to look recognizably like Mathilde and I:

1. Think it's cringe to hand out a spell that creates an apparition with her face to other wizards.

2. Don't want to spend another AP developing a new "skin" just so we can hand the spell out without cringe.
I don't believe it will actually be recognizable as Mathilde unless you are previously aware that she is the Dammerlichtreiter.

That is to say, her face will be indistinct.
 
I would be fine with the Dämmerlichtreiter, but apparently it's going to look recognizably like Mathilde and I:

1. Think it's cringe to hand out a spell that creates an apparition with her face to other wizards.

2. Don't want to spend another AP developing a new "skin" just so we can hand the spell out without cringe.
I'm confused about where you're getting that. Boney expressly said it wouldn't have Mathilde's face.
So I expect that a Dämmerlichtreiter Rider look is itself pretty indistinct
A mounted figure in robes and a hat, wielding a sword
But it lacks distinct features or maybe doesn't have a face entirely, its robes are a simple shroud without any adornments or identifying marks, and it is wreathed in shadows and/or mist that makes it seem indistinct and maybe a bit ethereal
A modified Ringwraith look essentially
@Boney is that more or less accurate?
Yes. The face would be visible but indistinct.
Shadowsteed, grey robes, witch hunter hat, greatsword (and, from other posts, much taller than she is). Enough to identify Mathilde, which I will admit to not being thrilled about, but it's less bad than "literally Mathilde on a horse" for purposes of codification. And I will acknowledge that it does provide some distance between us and the methodology we're using, since "weaponize folklore and stories" doesn't sound insane for something Ulgu could do? Ulgu already makes shadows into material objects, after all, which hides the secret of Apparitions a bit better.

I'm not voting for it, but I'm not worried about it likely winning.
 
That seems a bit overly ambitious. The area is huge and there's bound to be a lot of passive Waaagh emissions. It'd take an enormously large and complex system to map concentrations of Waaagh energy and differentiate 100 nearby goblins from 10000 orcs miles and miles away.

It doesn't really seem practical at the current tech level.
Yeah, this is fair. It's actually something I think an auditory Seviroscope might be useful for if we decide to develop it later. Sort of a first step, "build the tools to build the tools" in aetheric measurements and studies. If Waaagh "frequencies" can be mapped and differentiated, it might be possible. Not something for the short term, but with the right study and direction, long term it might be achievable.
 
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