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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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[X] [RIDER] The Dämmerlichtreiter
Currently the strongest option that just keep the horse and doesnt make it look weird.

The idea of using a cat just to minmax how the Rider can't fall off appeals to me, but that is the only thing drawing me towards that.
 
Alliterate said:
Could the meteoric graphite from the Tower have an insulative role to play here?

Neutral, transparent and wind-rejecting. Likely very expensive, but this is for the limited-production Masterwork Visual Seviroscope.
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It's horribly fragile when cut that thin. It worked for the tower because it was being sandwiched in place by solid rock, but in something that's going to be moving around it wouldn't last very long.
 
The best part of the Dammerlichtreiter, to me, is that it already has a ready-made spell name and we don't have to go stretching for puns or alliterations or anything. And "Twilight Rider" is just a cool spell name for Grey Wizards.
 
Gavin Prince said:
I don't think it's been brought up in the first 30 pages, but it's neat that this action let us learn Eike's missing Diplomacy skill. I would not have pegged it as Nobility, given she's mostly a Burgher - I was kinda assuming it would be a foreign diplomacy like the Karaz Ankor.

It's odd how often random tangents end up teaching you things you'd never expect to learn about friends and family.
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Yeah, we're now down to just one skill unknown, happened quite a bit faster than I expected (That naval tactics skill especially feels like it could have gone undiscovered for a long time if we hadn't had the pretty rare circumstance of interacting with shipbuilding). Considering her Seen, not Heard trait I feel like there's a decent chance her unknown intrigue skill is probably stealth related, maybe infiltration since that's the closest college class available.
 
Ericwinter said:
It really is fun how Eike was actually able to help as a result. I wasn't even expecting her to be able to do anything at all, not with two Magister Lords on the subject already, but lo and behold she did.
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It's a very smooth inclusion of her. We did send her to Enchanting Class this turn, and the time to mention that in the narrative would naturally be before the Enchanting action. But at the same time, Enchanting 101 alone was never really going to give her the insights necessary to contribute to that scene when the other two characters have been doing it professionally for years. Enough to be present and learn something, sure. But not to contribute unless she wants to come off as one of those intolerable "correcting the teacher" Wesley Crusher types. She needs a personal angle.

So, yes, a very very neat way to get her into the scene beyond Egrimm's offhand comment noting her windsight isn't applicable to the task.
 
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[X] [SEVIROSCOPE] Visual
[X] [RIDER] Mounted Wraiths

As much as being able to put Mathilde's name onto a single spell twice intrigues the chaos gremlin in me, we came into this looking for Ringwraiths, might as well leave with Ringwraiths.
 
Alratan said:
Something clearly inhuman basically can't be used outside of battlefields. Something that looks like a person can be called up in a much wider range of scenarios, because it won't cause mass panic or riots.
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The concern is that ultimately this thing is and will always be a Rider In Red in a costume. This isn't like Wolf who looks scary but is friendly, it's a being that exists only to Do Violence and Eat Magic. You shouldn't use it outside of combat for the same reason you don't want people to approach the lion enclosure.

A form that makes soldiers want to stay a good distance back is a feature that will protect them, not a bug.
 
Guile said:
Well, I'm not saying peasants COULDNT look at the image of the Hunter Count trampling skeletons 'neath the hooves of his mighty steed, runefang hewing through some foul necromancer, probably with his long hair flowing in some unseen wind, nod their heads sagely and say, 'Yes, clearly this was made to mock a great man.'
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It's not so much that I think people will believe Riderhelm was meant to mock Abelhelm in the heat of battle-obviously not, as you said, he'll look glorious.

It'll be the moments after the battle when people ask us how a deadman has come to fight on our side that we'll have to explain that Riderhelm is not Abelhelm. Instead we have molded the form of a mute, unintelligent being whose kind Abelhelm as a witch hunter was sworn to destroy into a replica of his body. And that we now hold this being in permanent bondage for use in battle.

And of course that's only the real explanation, rumors will abound that we have summoned him from the dead or some such.

I think that some people, without full knowledge of our relationship with him, will view this as a mockery.
 
Zero Gravitas said:
Considering that the Apparitions are being bound and Ranald is pretty much the most anti-binding and freedom loving 'Order' deity... I really wouldn't like associating Ranald's anything with the Apparition.

Even if we - quite sensibly - don't use actual Ranaldite imagery even using Ranald's sacred animal is iffy.
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Enslaving a warp entity and then consciously making their literal bonds of servitude in the form of religious iconography of the patron god of Sic semper tyrannis and the guillotine is a bold move.

I mean, Mathilde would be IC using the cat iconography in 'homage' to Ranald, as that's the only reason to do it, which would be a bit of a punchy statement to make to your patron god/best friend.
 
Cogsprocket said:
The concern is that ultimately this thing is and will always be a Rider In Red in a costume. This isn't like Wolf who looks scary but is friendly, it's a being that exists only to Do Violence and Eat Magic. You shouldn't use it outside of combat for the same reason you don't want people to approach the lion enclosure.

A form that makes soldiers want to stay a good distance back is a feature that will protect them, not a bug.
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Why not? The job of the Colleges is to take the inimical, chaos originated powers of magic and use them for the good of the Empire, in and off the battlefield.

As I said, Apparitions are selective about their targets. They don't go on murder sprees through the regular citizens of Altdorf. Generally they seem to be perfectly safe for anyone who isn't their target.

Given that, that they have a mind and can be selective in their targeting, unlike many spells, there's good reason to expect that a well trained apparition would be safer to use around civilians than other spells. At least they have the capability to choose only to target the things their enemy wants to kill and not to kill indiscriminately or cause collateral damage.

The fact that Appariitons have minds and can make choices is a big part of their benefit. It's a large part of the point behind binding an apparition, that they have a mind.

You want an Apparition so you can use one in a crowd and have it only kill the person you want to kill. Otherwise we might as well buy a fireball item.
 
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[X] [RIDER] Great Cat Knight
[X] [RIDER] Knight
-[X] Demigryph Knight
[X] [RIDER] Knight
-[X] Conventional Empire
[X] [RIDER] Spider
 
Alratan said:
I mean, Mathilde would be IC using the cat iconography in 'homage' to Ranald, as that's the only reason to do it, which would be a bit of a punchy statement to make to your patron god/best friend.
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It's not the only reason to do it—there's the inherent danger and deadliness of big cats, the monsterfication of the mount, disguising its origins as a red rider, and also a subtle nod to the Gold Order's Dark Hounds by having a Dark Feline.

... Although I will admit the Ranald connection is still a rather prominent reason.
 
Gavin Prince said:
It's a very smooth inclusion of her. We did send her to Enchanting Class this turn, and the time to mention that in the narrative would naturally be before the Enchanting action. But at the same time, Enchanting 101 was never really going to give her the insights necessary to contribute to that scene when the other two characters have been doing it professionally for years. Enough to be present and learn something, sure. But not to contribute unless she wants to come off as one of those intolerable "correcting the teacher" Wesley Crusher types.

So, yes, a very very neat way to get her into the scene beyond Egrimm's offhand comment noting her windsight isn't applicable to the task.
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It's also a really good reminder that for all that Mathilde is super knowledgeable about magic, has a vast library on many other subjects, and is generally smart enough to engineer practical solutions to problems off the top of her head, there's still a lot of things about the world that she just doesn't really know. And not even the sort of stuff you need to be a super genius to learn. Even Apprentices can contribute with the right experiences.
 
[X] [RIDER] A man who could look like a depiction of Ranald, though there's a lot of ambiguity about it due to the smoke drifitng around him partially obscuring his face at all times, in a knight costume, wielding swords, riding a horse-sized housecat.

[X] [RIDER] Great Cat Knight

EDIT : I've been sold on the usefulness of a decoy.

[X] [RIDER] Mathilde on a Shadowsteed
[X] [RIDER] Mist-shrouded Grey Wizard on a Shadowsteed
 
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Gavin Prince said:
It's a very smooth inclusion of her. We did send her to Enchanting Class this turn, and the time to mention that in the narrative would naturally be before the Enchanting action. But at the same time, Enchanting 101 was never really going to give her the insights necessary to contribute to that scene when the other two characters have been doing it professionally for years. Enough to be present and learn something, sure. But not to contribute unless she wants to come off as one of those intolerable "correcting the teacher" Wesley Crusher types.

So, yes, a very very neat way to get her into the scene beyond noting her windsight isn't applicable to the task.
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This is a great point. That said, I do hope she manages to learn something from the Windherding; that was the whole point of Enchanting class, after all.
Ericwinter said:
It's also a really good reminder that for all that Mathilde is super knowledgeable about magic, has a vast library on many other subjects, and is generally smart enough to engineer practical solutions to problems off the top of her head, there's still a lot of things about the world that she just doesn't really know. And not even the sort of stuff you need to be a super genius to learn. Even Apprentices can contribute with the right experiences.
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One of the running themes of the quest has been the value in diversity. Different people with different backgrounds see the world differently and have different kinds of insights and that allows you to gain useful parallax on a problem. This is why we invested so much time in recruiting a team for the Waystone Project, after all.
 
Alratan said:
Why not? The job of the Colleges is to take the inimical, chaos originated powers of magic and use them for the good of the Empire, in and off the battlefield.

As I said, Apparitions are selective about their targets. They don't go on murder sprees through the regular citizens of Altdorf. Generally they seem to be perfectly safe for anyone who isn't their target.

Given that, that they have a mind and can be selective in their targeting, unlike many spells, there's good reason to expect that a well trained apparition would be safer to use around civilians than other spells. At least they have the capability to choose only to target the things their enemy wants to kill and not to kill indiscriminately or cause collateral damage.

The fact that Appariitons have minds and can make choices is a big part of their benefit. It's a large part of the point behind binding an apparition, that they have a mind.

You want an Apparition so you can use one in a crowd and have it only kill the person you want to kill. Otherwise we might as well buy a fireball item.
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Ultimately I'm less optimistic about the performance of this thing than you are, it seems. The fact that it has a mind means we can probably make it understand what we want but ultimately while it's intelligent, it's an alien intelligence and I think you're assuming a bit too much about how it's going to get to that one person in the crowd (I think it's natural tendency is just to go through them).
 
I see that "Great Cat Knight" is one of the two leading votes, but I'm not clear what it is,

Are we just talking a conventional Empire knight mounted on a large cat rather than a demigryph or horse? If so, why isn't it under the conventional knight subvote? If not, what does it mean?
 
[X] [RIDER] Great Cat Knight
[X] [RIDER] Mounted Wraiths

For Mathilde Lookalikes; I think we'd get more milage from the Handmaidens. They're naturally us-shaped, they're naturally much more inclined and able to utilize teleportation, and they're invisible to everyone except their target, which means that if we teleport away in the process of dropping one then anyone not already our victims is on the lookout for an Invisible Mathilde, which a Handmaiden can mimic much more accurately than a Rider can mimic a Battle-ready Mathilde.

They also have hands, so theoretically we could tell them to pop over and go grab somebody, and then they might be able to pop the corpse back to us so that we can steal their stuff afterwards.


I have also seen mentions through the thread of the Apparitions remaining ethereal to mundane arms, armor, and flesh. Does this mean that, whatever we end up choosing, we'll be able to replicate the vaunted feat of having some cavalry ride through the walls to just absolutely G-E-T someone hiding out in a tavern?
Briefvoice said:
I see that "Great Cat Knight" is one of the two leading votes, but I'm not clear what it is,

Are we just talking a conventional Empire knight mounted on a large cat rather than a demigryph or horse? If so, why isn't it under the conventional knight subvote? If not, what does it mean?
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I'm personally imagining a mundane knight on top of a House Cat of Unusual Size. I don't... actually have any other kind of cat in mind, and am legitimately assuming that this is the default.
 
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Another thought. Apparitions seem drawn to/shaped by people's fear of them.

I can see it being easier to train them not to attack people who aren't terrified of them, which is a reason not to choose a shape that regular humans will be very scared of.

Nerdasaurus Rex said:
It's not the only reason to do it—there's the inherent danger and deadliness of big cats, the monsterfication of the mount, disguising its origins as a red rider, and also a subtle nod to the Gold Order's Dark Hounds by having a Dark Feline.

... Although I will admit the Ranald connection is still a rather prominent reason.
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Thread narrative seems to influence Mathilde's thought process, and cats seem to have been all about Ranald.

Big cats probably aren't a very culturally significant thing to her either. She didn't watch nature documentaries on TV as a child or see books with illustrations of them when she was in her formative years.

Cogsprocket said:
Ultimately I'm less optimistic about the performance of this thing than you are, it seems. The fact that it has a mind means we can probably make it understand what we want but ultimately while it's intelligent, it's an alien intelligence and I think you're assuming a bit too much about how it's going to get to that one person in the crowd (I think it's natural tendency is just to go through them).
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The thing is, currently it's perfectly happy to leave people who aren't its favoured targets unharmed. I don't see why training it to change its favourite targets would change that attitude.

If we had to teach it not to attack civilians that would be one thing, but that seems like its default behaviour.

I think Red Riders are imperceptible save by wizards, but I don't think they're incorporeal. I don't think they can selectively phase through people or objects. They're horror movie monsters that would batter down the door, not walk through it, I feel. Rotwyrms are specifically noted to be incorporeal, which strongly suggests the others aren't.

This is supported by Boney saying that a monster without magical weapons could push away an apparition, but being unable to harm it would eventually have its limbs disabled by its attacks. That suggests they're by default invisible, not ethereal. The Ulgu coating would make them visible to everyone when manifest, but I wouldn't have thought it could grant incorporeality.
 
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Alratan said:
an apparition that can pass as a human.
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Alratan said:
The training should be, if we've any sense, first to let Mathilde specific acceptable targets in place of Bright wizards
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Alratan said:
They don't go on murder sprees through the regular citizens of Altdorf. Generally they seem to be perfectly safe for anyone who isn't their target.
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I'll be honest, I can't tell what you are saying because you know if to be true, what you are saying because you think it is likely, and what you are asserting as true because it's useful to your argument that it be true, but you have no evidence for.

"Perfectly safe" isn't something I associate with a thing most commonly mistaken as a demon of Khorne.

But I've got no evidence one way or another whether they actually avoid killing people who aren't magic.
 
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