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NorseQuest (A Norse Xianxia)

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Shard said:
Does Puncture pierce Rebuke? It sounds like a Perfect defence.
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Rebuke's countermeasure is inherent to it. "Just spend enough resources". As such, I don't think Puncture is effective, since it can be easily beaten as long as you're willing to invest in it.

Chivalrics and Priestly cultivators don't have any issues with that because their resource pool regenerates quickly, so it just means they have to make each individual attack count, though it does mean battles between them are basically a chess match (Which again, working as intended, historical Knights for instance were virtually invincible except against their peers or unless they were dumbfool enough to get their horse killed and dragged down by a mob).
 
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Shard said:
Does Puncture pierce Rebuke? It sounds like a Perfect defence.
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I think Rebuke works slightly differently, because it's more of a "You must be this tall to ride" on the Orthstirr for incoming attacks. But I and Deadman are putting Puncture on the Flashfire Cleaves we're throwing just in case, because it would be very annoying if he has a sneaky Perfect defence hiding somewhere, and it costs like, 8 Orthstirr a pop so why not.

I amended my plan to nine basic attacks, btw. (It was already throwing 8).
 
I mean, we've seen Gabriel have a really powerful active defense--that Passage of Arms shit he pulled against the Threaded Elephant for instance. Puncture is there to hedge against it being a Perfect.
 
'You must be this tall to attack' is also how Semi-Halting Vortex works, mind. And Puncture works on it.
 
Skippy said:
I think I may have misspoken here; I guess what I'm saying think if we're throwing X attacks in a round, then Imperial Fister prolly adjudicates it so that the other guy is throwing X +/- N depending on whether our opponent is pursuing a high-attack (+ve N) or low attack (-ve N) strategy that round, so things roughly fit neatly within a Turn. (Assuming nothing round-breaking happens.)

But if we're throwing X attacks and they're throwing X+1, but our defences only hold up for the first attack, let's say... then we're potentially open to X attacks. Realistically what seems to happen here is we get punched in the face and then get a forced Turn Break to regroup, but that's still not great.

So yeah, this is maybe a long-winded way of saying that I think one Atgeir Bodyguard is tempting fate a little.
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Per what IF has said previously, it sounds like he assigns most of their actions before he reads our plan, giving them some leeway to adjust to our plan based on their tactical skills, so our attacks don't necessarily effect their number of attacks at all...they're more likely to effect their number of defenses, while our number of defenses effects their number of attacks.

Skippy said:
That's fair enough, but I think there would still be opacity of information if you gave a baseline value for dice pools, it would just be centred more in terms of correctly reading enemy intentions and anticipating their actions. Rather than misreading what the "floor" of dice is to begin with and ending up in a place where none of your attacks or defences work.

So I think a baseline rather than removing hidden information entirely, would more move it in a direction which is more fun and more centred in the story/fight itself, which feels broadly preferable to me?
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I don't necessarily disagree, this is just very much a 'what is the QM looking for in this system' kind of question.

Alectai said:
I don't think he has an active persistent or it would have been called out given our massive Tactics result, the 'Persistent Defense' that Chivalrics have is by putting down a "You Must be This Tall to even roll to attack me" approach.
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I'm not sure active persistent defenses are impossible for Feudal Cultivators, but I'd say they'd be very rare (since, as you say, they rarely need them), and that the Tactics Analysis section, which specifically notes he's overspending to defend against basics and was as good a success as possible with, like 52 successes, means Gabriel specifically doesn't have one, or at least not one that he's using.

Shard said:
Does Puncture pierce Rebuke? It sounds like a Perfect defence.
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Probably, but given that Puncture costs 9 Orthstirr, we may never know since the cost increase alone gets it past the barrier of entry.
 
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Alectai said:
Was there any major feedback that I missed?
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Just wanted to say thank you for taking those comments on board, I know critique can always feel not great even if it's intended as constructive.

The only other advice I'd give (beyond thinking that we want a Sword Guard and an Atgeir Bodyguard, etc.) is maybe put the total dice pools for everything somewhere, just so Imperial Fister does not need to add it up when he's reading the plan?
 
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Sure, let me add that in.

EDIT: Done, total dice pools for all moves that are rolled have been added in.
 
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This is the plan I would go for, skeleton-wise, since I don't fully grok the combat mechanics:

[] Plan: Shard's Skeletal Plan
-[] Stoke Frami (+187 Orthstirr)
-[] 18d6 Attack
-[] 68d6 Defense
-[] 0d6 Intercept
-[] Maintain Stoker State Stage 2 (-6 Orthstirr)
-[] Prepare a Atgeir Bodyguard (20 + 1 (Hugareida) + 31 (Extra Orthstirr): Total 52d6 + 4 (Frenzy) ) (45 Orthstirr)
-[] Activate Slipstream (-16 Orthstirr) immediately and use Ember-Wing Cloak (-6 Orthstirr) as necessary to control distance
-[] Use up to 9x Honed, Lightning-Charged Basic Attacks (1d6 + 7d6 (Hone) + 4 (Frenzy)) (Total of 72 Orthstirr). Follow up 6x of them with a 1x Sharpened Sword Strike (54 Orthstirr Total for the extra attacks, 1d6 + 2d6 (Sharpen) + 4 Frenzy), and 3x of them with 19x Sharpened Sword Strikes (81 Orthsirr for these extra attacks, 1d6 + 38d6 (Sharpen) + 4 Frenzy)
-[] After the Atgeir Bodyguard is overcome, react to the incoming attack using Contested Movement, augmented with all Stoked Dice (3 Orthstirr for 8d6 + 14d6 (Stoked Dice, could be higher)+ 4 (Frenzy)) replying with a Sharpened, Lightning Enhanced Flashfire Cleave with Puncture as our retaliation (16 Orthstirr Total), then a [INSERT 48d6 WORTH OF DEFENCES HERE]. Disengage using EWC if all remaining defenses are exhausted to try to Round Break.
-[] Tactics – Counter Gabriel's likely high-powered attacks, then wail on him with lots of low-powered rapid attacks to drain his Fervor when he overexerts himself. Combine with a handful of powerful attacks randomly slotted in to keep him on his toes and ideally overspending to prevent us from sneaking anything past his guard.
 
Shard said:
This is the plan I would go for, skeleton-wise, since I don't fully grok the combat mechanics:

[] Plan: Shard's Skeletal Plan
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That actually all looks correct. Well, obviously you need to fill in the 48d6 of defenses, but otherwise the mechanics seem pretty much accurate.

I'm pretty sure you should have some more actual follow-up after all the attacks designed to soften him up (the high-die Sharpens do a total of 3 damage each...they won't even get through the armor on their own), or the turn likely doesn't actually achieve much, but that's a planning critique, not really a mechanical one.
 
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Skippy said:
-[X] Open up with a Contested Movement with 14d6 Stoked Dice
--[X] Hit with a Sharpened x8 Lightning-Charged Flashfire Cleave attack using Puncture (-24 Orthstirr)
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It's better to use Contested Movement defensively (we negate an attack in addition to getting in a free hit), plus we don't know how it mechanically works on the offence.
 
Shard said:
It's better to use Contested Movement defensively (we negate an attack in addition to getting in a free hit), plus we don't know how it mechanically works on the offence.
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Hmmm, fair point. It was mostly a matter of wanting to start off with a strong opener.

I'll move the regular Flashfire Cleave up in the priority order to replace it, and integrate the Stoked-Dice Contested Movement in with the other Contested Movements I'm doing as counter-attacks, with a note that we'd like to use at least two and will use our Stoked Dice pool to power the first.
 
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[] Plan: Shard's Skeletal Plan Mk2
-[] Stoke Frami (+187 Orthstirr)
-[] 18d6 Attack
-[] 68d6 Defense
-[] 0d6 Intercept
-[] Maintain Stoker State Stage 2 (-6 Orthstirr)
-[] Prepare a Atgeir Bodyguard (20 + 1 (Hugareida) + 31 (Extra Orthstirr): Total 52d6 + 4 (Frenzy) ) (45 Orthstirr)
-[] Activate Slipstream (-16 Orthstirr) immediately and use Ember-Wing Cloak (-6 Orthstirr) as necessary to control distance
-[] Use up to 9x Honed, Lightning-Charged Basic Attacks (1d6 + 7d6 (Hone) + 4 (Frenzy)) (Total of 72 Orthstirr). Follow up 6x of them with a 1x Sharpened Sword Strike (54 Orthstirr Total for the extra attacks, 1d6 + 2d6 (Sharpen) + 4 Frenzy), and 3x of them with 19x Sharpened Sword Strikes (81 Orthsirr for these extra attacks, 1d6 + 38d6 (Sharpen) + 4 Frenzy)
-[] After the Atgeir Bodyguard is overcome, react to the incoming attack using Contested Movement, augmented with all Stoked Dice (3 Orthstirr for 8d6 + 14d6 (Stoked Dice, could be higher given basic attacks made)+ 4 (Frenzy)) replying with a Sharpened, Lightning Enhanced Flashfire Cleave with Puncture as our retaliation (16 Orthstirr Total), then a 40d6 Honed, Reinforced Slice-asides (24d6 + 7d6 (Hone) +9d6 (Reinforce)) (16+8 = 24 Orthsirr), then a 40d6 Honed, Reinforce Heft-Halter Chop (24d6 + 7d6 (Hone) +9d6 (Reinforce)) (16+3 = 19 Orthsirr). After then try up to a further 3 Contested-Movements, each augmented with Fight of Our Life (3 Orthsirr, Fight of Our Light for 8d6+7d6), replying with Flashfire Cleaves with Puncture for each of those responces. Disengage using EWC if all remaining defenses are exhausted to try to Round Break.
-[] Tactics – Wail on Gabriel with lots of low-powered rapid attacks to drain his Fervor when he overexerts himself. Combine with a handful of powerful attacks randomly slotted in to keep him on his toes and ideally overspending to prevent us from sneaking anything past his guard. Mostly wait for Gabriel to do his powerful Prayers/Tricks, then brutally counter them in turn.
 
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So anyway I was thinking that we should try to extend the battle out some, because that way we can ask Gabriel more questions, and he's much more likely to answer them since its in the heat of combat and he isn't likely to think through the consequences of answering. Plus the closer the fight feels, the higher the relation improvement? I think, anyway.
 
Alectai said:
@Imperial Fister, the investment on the Trick means that the counterattack attempt will still be considered strong enough to break through Rebuke, right?
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Sure. If the armor is pierced, rebuke stops working.

On the topic of hostile dice, I'll go ahead and give you a range that the enemy's dice pool is in going forwards. You can use Reward Dice to ask questions and narrow down the results.

Gabriel's dice pool is somewhere between 150–250d4
 
Imperial Fister said:
Sure. If the armor is pierced, rebuke stops working.

On the topic of hostile dice, I'll go ahead and give you a range that the enemy's dice pool is in going forwards. You can use Reward Dice to ask questions and narrow down the results.

Gabriel's dice pool is somewhere between 150–250d4
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...

That's a big number. That being said, my question was "Does he still have to actually use a defense to block Slice-Aside's follow-up counterattack because Slice-Aside still hit the Rebuke threshold? Or does he just automatically ignore it because technically the counter-attack is separate from the defense, and therefore gets auto-Rebuked" The idea is that we bait out his stacked defenses with as many cherry-taps that bypass Rebuke (And thus, require an actual response instead of "Lol no") as we can muster.

I mean, in practical terms, it's 20% weaker than a Norse die pool in the same ballpark due to being smaller die values, but that's still broadly on par with Halla's own dice pool with a modest edge. But that's about where it should be I guess?
 
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Alectai said:
...

That's a big number. That being said, my question was "Does he still have to actually use a defense to block Slice-Aside's follow-up counterattack because Slice-Aside still hit the Rebuke threshold? Or does he just automatically ignore it because technically the counter-attack is separate from the defense, and therefore gets auto-Rebuked" The idea is that we bait out his stacked defenses with as many cherry-taps that bypass Rebuke (And thus, require an actual response instead of "Lol no") as we can muster.

I mean, in practical terms, it's 20% weaker than a Norse die pool in the same ballpark due to being smaller die values, but that's still broadly on par with Halla's own dice pool with a modest edge. But that's about where it should be I guess?
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30% Weaker.

Halla's equivalent dicepool as converted would be 86*1.4 = 120d4. If we assume the average Gabriel should have a 200d4 dicepool, presumably augmented further by a bunch of Fervor expenditure. We're looking at the benefits of someone going 100% combat focus here.

e: Unless the dicepool includes Fervor expenditure in which case it becomes a lot less impressive.
 
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So yeah, he's a bit stronger, but not unreachably so.

Definitely a good reminder that Chivalrics are absolute beasts, especially ones on the threshold of earning their spurs. But they're not just Straight Up Better in every way. Halla's in the same ballpark as a half-step Knight, and considering the usual setup where you usually need to bring multiple people of comparable experience to take on a Chivalric of equal relative age and experience, that's already amazing.
 
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Alectai said:
So yeah, he's a bit stronger, but not unreachably so.

Definitely a good reminder that Chivalrics are absolute beasts, especially ones on the threshold of earning their spurs. But they're not just Straight Up Better in every way.
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I mean. If we went for a equivalent build where we put in 90% of our training dice, actions and Fylgja Evolutions towards (and only) Getting Good at combat. We would be hell of a lot more stronger for sure. If way less flexible (no Seidr, probably dog/wolf/bear for Fylgja, forget about crafting skills, etc).

Oh, and knowing exactly what to do for Internal Cultivation of course. Mustn't forget that.
 
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Specialization Matters, yeah. Like, if we went the Steinarr "Double our Basic Action Dice" route, we'd probably be wiping the floor with him, but that means we wouldn't be able to have our massive bag of tricks on hand either which lets us pivot to exploit an opponent's weak spots if we detect one.
 
Hm...
"Hey, Blackhand, did you ever learned/create tricks after they were used against/on you? If yes, what were the most useful ones? not just combat ones."
 
The Spider War has escalated. They have crossed a line in the sand.

I found a freaking beetle burrowed in my toilet paper roll. What the fuck.
TheCount said:
Hm...
"Hey, Blackhand, did you ever learned/create tricks after they were used against/on you? If yes, what were the most useful ones? not just combat ones."
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'I do not recall.'

0~0~0

Voting will be called in an hour and a half
 
So, I think that all three of the plans have convergently evolved to some of the same ideas at this point, but I would like to shill for mine one last time.

1. Hedges Against Risk of Persistent/Perfect Trick Defences
Our plan of "throw a lot of Basic Attacks until he runs out of defences" can't work if all of them slam into the same persistent rolled/perfect defence like kittens hitting a glass screen door. Plan Defence in Depth deals with this by putting a Flashfire Cleave with Puncture and a fair chunk of dice right at the start of our offensive, meaning we can smash through whatever he has up, and he'll have to start expending his non-persistent Defence Tricks or Reinforced Basic Defences to stop the Basic Attacks.

2. Hedges Against the Risk of Our Atgeir Bodyguard Getting Taken Down
We know there is bullshit that can eat techniques like Atgeir Bodyguard/Sword Guard, not necessarily by beating it on a roll, but via some sort of special effect. (We've seen Steinarr do it.) We also suspect that attacks which beat one of Sword/Atgeir guard might continue on to hit our last ditch defences without destroying the other Sword/Atgeir guard. (Though this is not confirmed.) Making sure we have two "ablative" persistent defences up lengthens the possible window of time before we need to start tanking attacks with our Slice Aside or Contested Movement. Defence in depth.

3. Better Prioritisation of Defence
My plan, uniquely amongst the plans, deliberately prioritises things so that Halla will try and use her Slice-Aside followed up by a Basic Attack when he launches weaker attacks, and Contested Movement followed up by Flashfire Cleave if an attack looks too powerful to try and block*. This means that we have a better chance of making it through his attacks without a really strong one getting through our defences. In effect, it provides greater defence in depth by attempting to best allocate our defensive resources.


None of this is certain to make a difference. Essentially all of it is hedging against unexpected shenanigans, abilities that he might have, the risk of especially dangerous attacks. However, if you look at our fights in the Quest thus far, it is almost always the unexpected stuff that bites us in the behind because we assumed we'd planned around it. Fear the unknown unknowns. Of course I can't guarantee that my plan won't also end up tripping up on something we didn't plan for, but I think I can say that it guards against more unknowns than Plan Like a Book, and on point 3. specifically, even Plan Counterattacks. As the saying goes, it's not paranoia when they really are out to get you.

Please give it a look if you're still on the fence!



*(It also specifies we should use at least two Contested Movements whatever, as they also do a nice chunk of damage.)
 
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