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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Woltaire said:
not sure why u quoted me since my questions was about litteraly summoning greenskins? not about apparitions
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ReImagined said:
Because people confused summoning greenskins, figuratively, with summoning greenskins, literally, and your boneyquote provides context for the answer that they're not the same thing.
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This, exactly.
Humbaba said:
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the issue with Tributaries in Kislev that while we've got one enthusiastic supporter the current overall Kislevite non-magical leadership isn't particularly interested? So it's better to give them something visually impressive (Waystones) to get buy in for projects to actually implement our findings?

Tributaries are potentially greatly useful but, not to put too fine a point on it, it's something like the magical equivalent of improving the sewage network. Very useful where it would work, but it will take a decade or more to pay off and seems and pretty boring for the average person.

Assuming I haven't misremembered, then if we want to get politician buy in for actually rolling out our improvements in Kislev it seems to make more sense to wait.
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They solve different problems. New Waystones will allow for the extension of the network, new tributaries make the network more effective in the areas where it already has Waystones.
Derpmind said:
I'm always interested in what you have to say. You're one of the best contributors to discussions in this thread. (And many others.) That said, I'm much more interested in what the cat on your shoulder is thinking. What secrets lie underneath that aloof, fuzzy exterior? 🕵️‍♀️
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That's very sweet of you to say, but the cat on my shoulder is orange. Orange cats live lives far too blessed to be troubled with things like "thoughts."
Derpmind said:
I agree with everything else you bring up, but I'd rather take a pause on having Eike learn spells. For one thing, after her failure to learn Sounds, I don't want to tell her to put her nose to the grinder and try to break through her block on her own. (And it would be on her own- the first time we had Eike learn Petty Spells, she didn't have Mathilde personally tutoring her. That only happened here because Eike basically did this turn's EIC action for Mathilde, saving her the time to do so. Most of the time, we'd likely need to spend a AP to directly teach Eike.) That aside, I just think it would make narrative sense to do some kind other kind of training. Eike hardly needs the full Petty Spell list or +1 Magic at this point, and she's got enough spells to engage in basic wizarding things for now. After a full year of Magic Training, let's do some more Grey Training.

The other reason is that Mathilde can teach Eike her Masteries, but that's only going to happen when Mathilde is personally teaching her. If we want Eike to pick up Blessed Hands, a very useful Mastery for anyone who doesn't have a full set of enchanted weapons, we'll have to make sure Mathilde is there to do so. (I guess we could very specifically write in that she shouldn't learn that spell specifically, but that feels weird.) And the same holds for Shadowrider, when Eike gets done with the Lesser Magics list.
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Extremely reasonable. Taking a break and then swinging back to spell study after doing some other stuff (either Intrigue training or Enchanting, depending on the answer to the question I asked Boney) seems like a good way to keep Eike moving forward while not just forcing her to bull through roadblocks.
 
picklepikkl said:
This, exactly.

They solve different problems. New Waystones will allow for the extension of the network, new tributaries make the network more effective in the areas where it already has Waystones.

That's very sweet of you to say, but the cat on my shoulder is orange. Orange cats live lives far too blessed to be troubled with things like "thoughts."

Extremely reasonable. Taking a break and then swinging back to spell study after doing some other stuff (either Intrigue training or Enchanting, depending on the answer to the question I asked Boney) seems like a good way to keep Eike moving forward while not just forcing her to bull through roadblocks.
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Personally intrigue is my pick. We are a grey wizard (even if we don't act like it all the time) and sneaking good should be in any of the grey's handbooks.
 
@Boney : When a Waaagh collapses what does the energy look like to Mathilde. Does the energy disappear into nothing, break apart into winds, something else? Wondering what might happen to Waaagh in the absence of greenskins.
 
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LawsOfRobotics said:
  • I had Eike studying Intrigue, because I want to give her a break from memorizing spells, and I want to do something different with her instead of more rolling to see how well she does. She doesn't need more magic ASAP, and I want to round out her education, and our understanding of her. I really like @mathymancer's idea to have her Red Team against the Hochlander and the EIC. It is similar to how Regimand had us practice Intrigue, it helps her connect with the Hochlander and the EIC spy network, and it helps make the EIC better.
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Potential flaw in such an action, though it might be worthwhile regardless: Eike has an in depth knowledge of the EIC already, and this might mean she would learn a lot less than if she were to train against an orginsation she did not know. (The flipside being, if not the EIC then who can she train against?)

I do like the idea of her taking a break from spell learning orr a bit. All I think she needs is shafowsteed, blessed weapon and then maybe the one that makes people forget you, with a distant fourth place for the one that makes you blend in. Maybe we can look to her religous education?

------

General intrigue training: @Boney how might we ask Regimand if he's free for a teaching-visit on a turn we aim to teach Eike intrigue, if you'd be up for such a scene? Write it in as part of the action? Have it as a social vote (though I don't see hiw that would work)? Might it be nessecarry/helpful to append one or two or five favour to the action so he can get someone to cover some transferable work he might be doing?

I want Eike to meet her wizard-grandpa.
 
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I've been mulling it over and here's my thoughts on what to do next turn:

Plan: Running Shoes, Measured Steps (Temp)
-[] COIN: The Gambler
-[ ] Waystone: Foundation (Hatalath, Sarvoi, Thorek, Elrisse, Egrimm, Johann)
-[ ] Tributary: International (Kislev) (Tochter, Cadaeth, Aksel, Zlata, Baba Niedzwenka, Max)
-[ ] Attempt to create a liminal realm (The Gambler)
-[ ] JOHANN: Hunt an apparition (Rider in Red)
-[ ] MAX: Study an artefact (Books and rubbings from an Asur explorer of Lustria and the Southlands)
-[ ] EGRIMM: Write a paper (Observations on the Windfall north of the Dark Lands), Egrimm credited as primary author and Mathilde as secondary
-[ ] EIC: Negotiate and plan a magical route through the Schadensumpf to allow for easier trade with the Eonir without compromising their defenses
-[ ] KAU: Begin copying the full corpus of a Partner Library (University of Nuln)
-[ ] SERENITY: Aethyric Vitae book, part 1
-[ ] Eike Actions: Lustrian books study, Windfall paper, EIC action, Aethyric Vitae book
-[ ] Eike Study: Learn Sounds and/or Lesser Spells

As well as my extensive reasoning for each action:
  1. I know we floated the idea of putting everyone on the Foundation, but being realistic, that's probably putting too many cooks on one pot. It's also vaguely possible that it will go like the Capstone and that it might yield several possible components, and too many components to choose from could be counterproductive.
  2. Kislev needs tributaries badly. A big reason why we gave them to Stirland first is because Boney noted that it would be eyebrow-raising in some circles for foreigners to see the benefits of the Project before the Empire which is actually heading it. And while the Tsar could still be a problem and not prioritize the rituals for some time, I can't in good conscience support putting it off when they're losing a lot of land each year.
  3. AV needs advancing, and I feel like making a Liminal Realm is riskier than trying to capture an Apparition. Worst case scenario, Chaos takes notice again.
  4. I feel confident in being able to handle the Apparition without Ranald's help. Mathilde is not the Journeywoman she was twenty years ago, she is not the one being hunted, she just advanced her swordsmanship to Master, and we have a punchwizard backing us up. We could alternately, if we really wanted to, capture a different Apparition than the Red Rider, like the Black Essence - Boney highlighted some interesting possibilities with that one.
  5. We've been putting off the Lustrian books and rubbings for some time and now's the best time to do them. Eike can meaningfully contribute here not only due to being a smart cookie, but also because she has learned Eltharin.
  6. We can finally push our boy Egrimm to write the damn paper and not worry about us getting mad. It was his project in the first place, he shouldn't have to be afraid of tiptoeing around us. It would also be useful for Eike to take a look at several other peoples' perceptions of Windsight, though I do think she'd learn better with something more practical.
  7. Establishing a magical route should be rather easier to do than not with RoW codified. Eike has probably considered the matter of the Schadensumpf before so she might also have some ideas about how to take advantage of a road that can go through it magically.
  8. Part of me wants to start with the Minor Colleges of Nuln so the scribes aren't thrown off the deep end right off the bat, but I can't imagine that winning any vote.
  9. I'm inclined to think that Morbs themselves wont make us revise earlier parts of the text so we should do part 1 of the book here during the Serenity action and the rest on the following turn's.
  10. Eike: It bugs me to see her Learning skill be unfinished, and it would be a good opportunity to see Wilhelmina. And she should finish off Sounds, too.
Edit: Made some suggested changes.

Imugi said:
What benefit does Johann get from capturing one Rider in Red with Mathilde?
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Boney has said before that Johann can punch normally intangible beings like Apparitions because of his gilding. Which is helpful, when we've been told backup and a magical weapon would be useful against a Rider.
 
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BeepSmile said:
Potential flaw in such an action, though it might be worthwhile regardless: Eike has an in depth knowledge of the EIC already, and this might mean she would learn a lot less than if she were to train against an orginsation she did not know. (The flipside being, if not the EIC then who can she train against?)
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She probably has a thorough grasp on how the merchant side of the EIC works, but I don't think she really knows much about the espionage side of it. Mathilde's the one who's running it--if with a light hand, because it's the Hochlander who's handling most of the details--and while reports/summaries should also go to Wilhelmine as a matter of course, I don't think Wilhelmine actually knows the nitty-gritty of how the spy network functions.

Which should mean Eike doesn't either, so introducing her to that side of the EIC should be educational.
 
@Parabola if you are going to have Eike learn spells I think she would get more out of being allowed to roll that into attempting for more lesser magic. I know we abstract journeys, but narratively I feel that uprooting her to go not just in the normal Laurelorn to K8P route but back to Stirland in addition to all the other stuff may be a bit of a strain on her, especially especially as you are sending her back to her grandmother, who loves her yes, but also has her own expectations that Eike has to juggle.
 
The coin on apparition is not to ensure the safety of the action, it's to get the correct version of Rider in Red, the one that rides a horse the one in armor.

Edit: Apparently I've been reading the Rider in Red's description wrong this whole time. It's not that they sometimes appear as a knight riding a horse and sometimes as a naked man, it's that they always ride a horse but appear in armor or naked.

Anyway would still want to capture a Rider in Red that is a knight and in armor.
 
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picklepikkl said:
Hunh. Important question for Boney at such time as you have bandwidth: is Enchanting an Eike Study action that we'd expect her to be able to make independent headway on? I was kind of assuming that one would require actual AP to spend teaching her, since my impression was that Petty Spell actions have been primarily self-study from scrolls as opposed to directed teaching. If not, then yeah, let's get her started on the basics.
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If you think it's something she needs to learn, then it has to be either taught to her or lessons need to be paid for. It's not part of the standard curriculum and most Wizards never learn it. Getting your Apprentice to self-study an entirely new field of magic is a great way to have one less Apprentice.

mathymancer said:
@Boney, something I noticed about the books from the Elementalists is that the the Manann books go up to Esoteric. Is this the sort of thing the Cult of Manann will be mad about if it finds out? Do we know how the Elementalists got those books?
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You can assume that if the Cult of Elementalists gave custody of it to Grey Wizard Lady Magister Mathilde, it's not the sort of thing they'd get in trouble for having.

mathymancer said:
And what shocking Cult secrets are in the rarer books, other than the revelation that Manann is definitely Mathlann?
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You're asking me to invent highlights from an entire bookshelf of books. This is an immensely broad question that would require a huge amount of time and effort to accurately answer.

cog-nito said:
@Boney

Once we hopefully (Ranald willing) get the Waystone Foundation done next turn and the Waystone as a whole the turn after that, will the Waystone Project (Or at least Mathilde's part of it, as just like with the Tributaries I doubt she'd be personally involved with setting up the individual Waystones) have been completed with that? With us presumably moving on to the next arc?

Or does the project team intend to try their hand at making their own Waystone Nexuses?
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That will be up to a vote.

cog-nito said:
1. How old is Prince Mandred currently?
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He was born in 2481, so 9.

cog-nito said:
2. Of all the things in things quest that have made you get up on your balcony, what had you up there the longest?
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Probably Roswita being vociferously anti-magic.

fictionfan said:
@Boney : When a Waaagh collapses what does the energy look like to Mathilde. Does the energy disappear into nothing, break apart into winds, something else? Wondering what might happen to Waaagh in the absence of greenskins.
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It evaporates.

BeepSmile said:
General intrigue training: @Boney how might we ask Regimand if he's free for a teaching-visit on a turn we aim to teach Eike intrigue, if you'd be up for such a scene? Write it in as part of the action? Have it as a social vote (though I don't see hiw that would work)? Might it be nessecarry/helpful to append one or two or five favour to the action so he can get someone to cover some transferable work he might be doing?

I want Eike to meet her wizard-grandpa.
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As per hiring a tutor, but just to manage expectations, 'Wizard-Grandpa' isn't automatically a thing. Regimand has never met Eike and has no relation to Eike. It is entirely possible that he won't see her any differently than he would the other two hundred Apprentices in the Order.
 
DragonParadox said:
@Parabola if you are going to have Eike learn spells I think she would get more out of being allowed to roll that into attempting for more lesser magic. I know we abstract journeys, but narratively I feel that uprooting her to go not just in the normal Laurelorn to K8P route but back to Stirland in addition to all the other stuff may be a bit of a strain on her, especially especially as you are sending her back to her grandmother, who loves her yes, but also has her own expectations that Eike has to juggle.
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True, true. The EIC and Serenity actions are also essentially free so she should have a lot more time. I'll add that onto the next revision.
 
Boney said:
As per hiring a tutor, but just to manage expectations, 'Wizard-Grandpa' isn't automatically a thing. Regimand has never met Eike and has no relation to Eike. It is entirely possible that he won't see her any differently than he would the other two hundred Apprentices in the Order.
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he treats most Apprentices/journeymen that aren't his own like bronze-age people treat babies/small children.

They aren't a person until they hit Journeyman without blowing up/not going to bother remembering their name until they hit Magister without being eaten.

emotionally saver that way.
 
...Guys, I don't mean to burst your bubbles, but the entry of the Rider in Red in the RPG says that they always manifest as riding a horse. Hence the name. What seems to vary is the exact appearance of the rider - sometimes nude with flaming red skin, sometimes adorned in red armor; possibly the weapon varies too, but it's clear on how it's always riding a black steed that exhales plumes of smoke from its nostrils and whose feet cause sparks to appear when stamping.
 
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Boney said:
In a vacuum they might, but as is, they're seeing that an apparent lack of heir worked out great for them the last two times and having an established heir completely failed to prevent the previous dynasty from being a disaster.
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Love this detail. "No, I don't want to know who's going to be in charge next. It's better when they show up out of nowhere after the current ruler dies. Heirs have years to go crazy, but mysterious witch hunters showing up in the middle of the night at least have to be competent enough to find the castle and fill out the paperwork to get in"
 
I'm attempting to combine all the Winds of Chaos maps of the Empire like Boney did with Stirland and Sylvania, and it is really annoying how some borders line up perfectly, while others are just misaligned enough to be an issue. Probably would have to edit the positions of things a bit to get things to line up unfortunately.
 
Parabola said:
-[ ] Eike Actions: Lustrian books study, Windfall paper, EIC action, Aethyric Vitae book
-[ ] Eike Study: Learn Sounds and Lesser Spells, finish up Old World Economics with Wilhelmina
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This is asking Eike to do too much stuff. Last time we had her tag along on four actions, she only had time to learn two spells. I don't think she'd even have the time to for two self-study actions unless we only had her on two following-Mathilde actions. I'd seriously suggest cutting this down.

I do take your point about using the Coin, though. Should we do it next turn, liminal realm creation is more risky than apparition hunting, especially when we have Johann along with us. The Coin would go a long way to keep a repeat accidental demon summoning from happening.
 
Derpmind said:
This is asking Eike to do too much stuff. Last time we had her tag along on four actions, she only had time to learn two spells. I don't think she'd even have the time to for two self-study actions unless we only had her on two following-Mathilde actions. I'd seriously suggest cutting this down.

I do take your point about using the Coin, though. Should we do it next turn, liminal realm creation is more risky than apparition hunting, especially when we have Johann along with us. The Coin would go a long way to keep a repeat accidental demon summoning from happening.
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The EIC and book actions are free-ish due to the Hochlander and the Room of Serenity, but you're right. Though I don't like leaving things half-finished, I'll take Eike off studying with Wilhelmina.
 
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