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They could certainly say the words but there is no realistic way to enforce them short of putting a spy on us 24/7 which is untenable so I do not think they will do it under the principle of 'don't give orders you cannot enforce'.

They ban lots of Dark Magic or Chaos related, and High Magic related research.

Yes, they can't easily enforce it, but would Mathilde want to break the rules after just reporting herself for being potentially compromised by a Tzeentchian daemon.

While what you've said is likely true, it is possible that something like divine aid, or intervention of a powerful caster with knowledge of the divine ( like, say,Cython) could giveus that information. Which is why I asked boney.

The thing is, why would Tzeentch let us study it? It happens as and how he chooses. It's a phenomena directed by an apparently sapient mind. It's only as predictable as he chooses to make it.
 
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The thing is, Tzeentch could do that anyway to any wizard at any time, so it's not probative evidence of anything about Mathilde

The thing is, why would Tzeentch let us study it? It happens as and how he chooses. It's a phenomena directed by an apparently sapient mind. It's only as predictable as he chooses to make it.
Can he though? We don't know that. For all we know, the caster has to touch his magic first willingly, something we just did.

Ugh. I need some time to think.
 
They ban lots of Dark Magic or Chaos related, and High Magic related research.

Yes, they can't easily enforce it, but would Mathilde want to break the rules after just reporting herself for being potentially compromised by a Tzeentchian daemon.

I mean yes they ban Dark Magic on pain of death so the question is would they be willing to kill us over this? I suspect the answer would be no because if it were yes they'd skip right to the killing.
 
Can he though? We don't know that. For all we know, the caster has to touch his magic first willingly, something we just did.

Ugh. I need some time to think.

Question is, why would Tzeentch's ability to control his own magic he dependent on that though?

I mean yes they ban Dark Magic on pain of death so the question is would they be willing to kill us over this? I suspect the answer would be no because if it were yes they'd skip right to the killing.

But, IIRC, they also ban High Magic research as it's prone to catastrophic failure as well.

There can be lesser penalties than death as well for lesser rule-breaking.
 
Fated: +20 to spellcasting in the presence of Tzeentchian sorcery, ??? when spellcasting in the presence of Tzeentchian sorcery.

I'm going to try and throw out a few guesses as to what the "???" is. Note that these are only guesses, and I'm just bouncing ideas around.

  • Increased chance of mutation when spellcasting in the presence of Tzeentchian sorcery
  • Increased chance of miscast when spellcasting in the presence of Tzeentchian sorcery
  • Surrounded by multicolour flames when spellcasting in the presence of Tzeentchian sorcery
  • Receive visions/messages from Tzeentch when spellcasting in the presence of Tzeentchian sorcery
  • Chance of upgrading to a stronger skill when spellcasting in the presence of Tzeentchian sorcery
  • Chance to attract Tzeentchian demons when spellcasting in the presence of Tzeentchian sorcery
  • Create a magical beacon when spellcasting in the presence of Tzeentchian sorcery
 
Boney said that something like this could happen from a particularly bad miscast anyway. This won't taint AV.
I'm pretty sure that quote is saying we won't have to confess AV and ruin the orbflex. I don't think Boney's said anything on how the colleges will react to us publishing a once in a lifetime magical discovery right after having an encounter with a Lord of Change. I'm only a bit worried about it, because of Thorek, but it's definitely not something we should discount altogether.
 
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If every insight of every Magister or Lord/Lady Magister that ever met a powerful daemon was considered inherently suspect then the Colleges wouldn't ever get anything published. Wizard Lords are by definition some of the most powerful order-aligned beings in the Old World, and them facing or having the attention of daemons - even Greater Daemons - isn't exactly uncommon. Remember, this wasn't one of them actually contacting us by itself, this was a particularly bad miscast similar to the 'suddenly daemons' kind resulting in said daemon taking the chance to fuck with Matty; this makes her exactly as suspect as if she'd met it on the battlefield and it took the chance to taunt her.

What will probably happen is that the Vitae, along with the snakebox, the orbs and all of Mathilde's research notes, will be meticulously studied and analyzed before deciding on its safety - in which years of use by Runelords without incident will probably matter quite a bit.
I believe you are wilfully ignoring how, in this very update, Mathilde did spell out in no uncertain terms that there will be consequences for disclosing this paranormal encounter.

"Imma double check it again, just to be sure" is not consequences.

This is explicitly not an every day occurance. Just because it's on the miscast table doesn't mean it's common- in fact, it's in the catastrophic miscast table.

And even then, people don't actually tell about lesser daemons that just want to eat your face. And this was not just a gribbly.
 
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I'm pretty sure that quote is saying we won't have to confess AV and ruin the orbflex. I don't think Boney's said anything on how the colleges will react to us publishing a once in a lifetime magical discovery right after having an encounter with a lord of change. I'm only a bit worried about it, because of Thorek, but it's definitely not something we should discount altogether.

Note that this isn't just encountering a Lord of Change. This is having information downloaded into our mind by a Lord of Change.

One risk is that people may fear that any subsequent discovery we make was actually the result of a tainted seed planted in our mind by the daemon, and so is in some way comprised or vulnerable to chaotic exploitation.
 
I'm pretty sure that quote is saying we won't have to confess AV and ruin the orbflex. I don't think Boney's said anything on how the colleges will react to us publishing a once in a lifetime magical discovery right after having an encounter with a lord of change. I'm only a bit worried about it, because of Thorek, but it's definitely not something we should discount altogether.

We have a paper trail for AV going all the way back to when we first mentioned it offhand to Abel. Besides, after we got demon checked for the Queekish stuff, I doubt Mathilde is going to go "Surprise, here's some weird magic I pulled out of my back pocket" without also having receipts proving it's not chaos influenced.

Which is why we might want to repeat the Liminal realm experiment again, but I'm cool if we don't—we've only got so much AP after all.
 
AV as a category is probably defensible, as is using AV to recharge anvils..

Anything we announce, including the orbs, after this incident is suspect though.
 
AV as a category is probably defensible, as is using AV to recharge anvils..

Anything we announce, including the orbs, after this incident is suspect though.

Maybe, but there's no need to limit it to just AV. This could have happened whilst codifying Rite of Way, or binding Apparitions, or trying to create that Malicious Mist Battlemagic spell.

An encounter with a Greater Demon is a known, if rare and unlucky, consequence of all spellcraft, and being suspicious of everything a wizard that a does and creates in the wake of such an incident is overkill.
 
Likewise, the Grey Order likes to be kept abreast of this sort of thing so they know to be on the lookout for any sudden penchant for feathers and coloured flames. But the price of those admissions would be an erosion of trust and repute that you have spent thirty years building. Perhaps not an irreversible one, but you already have a lot of demands on your time without having to reassure your allies of your reliability, and if your Collegiate and Dwarven contributors to the Waystone Project - currently the staunchest members - were to suddenly have reason to distance themselves, that could bring the entire Project into jeopardy.
I feel people aren't really giving this section its due weight.

This is exactly the sort of consequence we are talking about when we say it casts shade/taints what we do.

Say nothing of the Morbs, of creating liminal realms. The Waystone Project could very easily be harmed.

And for what? Letting them know the suspicious clue we give them about the Everchosen is actually extra suspicious?
 
I'm going to try and throw out a few guesses as to what the "???" is. Note that these are only guesses, and I'm just bouncing ideas around.

  • Increased chance of mutation when spellcasting in the presence of Tzeentchian sorcery
  • Increased chance of miscast when spellcasting in the presence of Tzeentchian sorcery
  • Surrounded by multicolour flames when spellcasting in the presence of Tzeentchian sorcery
  • Receive visions/messages from Tzeentch when spellcasting in the presence of Tzeentchian sorcery
  • Chance of upgrading to a stronger skill when spellcasting in the presence of Tzeentchian sorcery
  • Chance to attract Tzeentchian demons when spellcasting in the presence of Tzeentchian sorcery
  • Create a magical beacon when spellcasting in the presence of Tzeentchian sorcery
After the trait showed up I suggested the trait could possibly be something along the lines of "More chance of being dispelled or being forced a miscast when spellcasting in the presence of Tzeentchian sorcery." Carrot and stick. Higher highs, lower lows.
 
Question is, why would Tzeentch's ability to control his own magic he dependent on that though?



But, IIRC, they also ban High Magic research as it's prone to catastrophic failure as well.

There can be lesser penalties than death as well for lesser rule-breaking.

I think that is just discouraged not forbidden.

I'm going to try and throw out a few guesses as to what the "???" is. Note that these are only guesses, and I'm just bouncing ideas around.

  • Increased chance of mutation when spellcasting in the presence of Tzeentchian sorcery
  • Increased chance of miscast when spellcasting in the presence of Tzeentchian sorcery
  • Surrounded by multicolour flames when spellcasting in the presence of Tzeentchian sorcery
  • Receive visions/messages from Tzeentch when spellcasting in the presence of Tzeentchian sorcery
  • Chance of upgrading to a stronger skill when spellcasting in the presence of Tzeentchian sorcery
  • Chance to attract Tzeentchian demons when spellcasting in the presence of Tzeentchian sorcery
  • Create a magical beacon when spellcasting in the presence of Tzeentchian sorcery

If it were anything that happened every time, certainly anything as visible as multi-colored light we would have noticed already. We closed down the portal with the aid of Tzeentchian sorcery. The others seem like they would be the case though
 
Self-isolation. Where it's not others trusting Mathilde less, but Mathilde trusting others less and subsequently distancing herself from them. And yes, Mathilde is used to keeping secrets, and has kept some big ones- but how many does the demon know about? Its speech implies not all, and certainly not all the ones where Mathilde is keeping the secret for her own personal benefit (as opposed to the colleges', Belegar's, etc,). That means it very much could be aiming for a 'tell nobody' outcome, because keeping secrets for others' sakes is a different kind of wearing on a person that keeping them to protect yourself.

You know, for all blackmail material is one of the most classic elements in intelligence to flip enemy spies and figures is a classic thing here, I think that this, too, warrants inspection.

How do you get people to make and maintain a common understanding? Proximity and Communication. Break that, stop them talking to each other, place lies and secrets* between them, and all that falls apart.

*Not all secrets are equal of course, a good relationship can be built around the understands that some will be kept, but even that comes with conversation and understanding.

----------------------

Honestly, since the idea of the bird telling the Order anything we don't say here keeps coming up...

We talk about blackmail material, but I think we should lay things out on the table and play this out like a move in a spygame.

First off. Accumulation of blackmail material is one of the classic ways to dig someone deeper and deeper into entrapment.

Known Sources of blackmail:
1: Anything we don't say here about this incident here and now.
-Status: As large or limited as we make it during this option.
2: Mathilde's very real collection of dark lore.
-Status: Existent but has does the Smug Bird know about them, and which ones?
3: Anything it just makes up.

So, how could this go wrong?

Telling our boss everything.
1: Grey Order overreaction kills Mathilde or else drives us into enemy hands.
2: Smug Bird burns its current blackmail material for a major response,
3: Loss of trust damages our projects.

Limited information:
1: Anything we don't say will become blackmail. The less we tell, the more relevant blackmail it has to force our hand, which can be weaponized in ways that will produce even more blackmail. The classic spy game.
2: An unsatisfied Smug Bird may decide to burn us anyways to force a conflict.
3: Lesser loss of trust as a result.

Keeping mum:
1: Maximum blackmail gain for the Smug Bird.
1a: many more ways for our hand to be forced.
2: May cause less contact between Mathilde and her allies.

Looking at it this way, this has me of the belief that the Order learning of the offer made to Mathilde, if they react with the same degree of care that and consideration that Mathilde did on learning about Egrimm's candidacy, makes it much, much harder to break her away from the forces of Order. Partially because she will be watched, partially because that watching will be known.

Yeah, I get that, the option to talk about the Everchosen offer is legit terrifying. There's fears of an overreaction, there's fears of an investigation being used by the Smug Bird to find one of Mathilde's very real books of dark lore. Still, there's another side of the coin here.

There's a chance they go for extreme measures but this is the Grey College. Look at the likes Lord Magister Kurtis "Hedgewise Quadruple Agent" Krammovitch, and Magister Regimand "We put on a show of being harsh on our own so that hostile powers will try to entrap us, and get burned in the process," Speiseschrank for instance, and tell me there that the prospect of a double-agent Everchosen-candidate would not at least be a temptation.

Not one that would be a good idea to follow, I think, there's a long history of double agents being turned, especially when we're talking about Lying to the God of Lies, but one that shows that being understanding of the situation is just as much in-character for Boney's version of the Order as overreaction.
 
You know, for all blackmail material is one of the most classic elements in intelligence to flip enemy spies and figures is a classic thing here, I think that this, too, warrants inspection.

How do you get people to make and maintain a common understanding? Proximity and Communication. Break that, stop them talking to each other, place lies and secrets* between them, and all that falls apart.

*Not all secrets are equal of course, a good relationship can be built around the understands that some will be kept, but even that comes with conversation and understanding.

----------------------

Honestly, since the idea of the bird telling the Order anything we don't say here keeps coming up...

We talk about blackmail material, but I think we should lay things out on the table and play this out like a move in a spygame.

First off. Accumulation of blackmail material is one of the classic ways to dig someone deeper and deeper into entrapment.

Known Sources of blackmail:
1: Anything we don't say here about this incident here and now.
-Status: As large or limited as we make it during this option.
2: Mathilde's very real collection of dark lore.
-Status: Existent but has does the Smug Bird know about them, and which ones?
3: Anything it just makes up.

So, how could this go wrong?

Telling our boss everything.
1: Grey Order overreaction kills Mathilde or else drives us into enemy hands.
2: Smug Bird burns its current blackmail material for a major response,
3: Loss of trust damages our projects.

Limited information:
1: Anything we don't say will become blackmail. The less we tell, the more relevant blackmail it has to force our hand, which can be weaponized in ways that will produce even more blackmail. The classic spy game.
2: An unsatisfied Smug Bird may decide to burn us anyways to force a conflict.
3: Lesser loss of trust as a result.

Keeping mum:
1: Maximum blackmail gain for the Smug Bird.
1a: many more ways for our hand to be forced.
2: May cause less contact between Mathilde and her allies.

Looking at it this way, this has me of the belief that the Order learning of the offer made to Mathilde, if they react with the same degree of care that and consideration that Mathilde did on learning about Egrimm's candidacy, makes it much, much harder to break her away from the forces of Order. Partially because she will be watched, partially because that watching will be known.

Yeah, I get that, the option to talk about the Everchosen offer is legit terrifying. There's fears of an overreaction, there's fears of an investigation being used by the Smug Bird to find one of Mathilde's very real books of dark lore. Still, there's another side of the coin here.

There's a chance they go for extreme measures but this is the Grey College. Look at the likes Lord Magister Kurtis "Hedgewise Quadruple Agent" Krammovitch, and Magister Regimand "We put on a show of being harsh on our own so that hostile powers will try to entrap us, and get burned in the process," Speiseschrank for instance, and tell me there that the prospect of a double-agent Everchosen-candidate would not at least be a temptation.

Not one that would be a good idea to follow, I think, there's a long history of double agents being turned, especially when we're talking about Lying to the God of Lies, but one that shows that being understanding of the situation is just as much in-character for Boney's version of the Order as overreaction.

OK this I am going to argue against because it is proposing revealing candidacy, yes the Order as a whole is at least as competent as Mathilde so they would probably not make the wrong choice and try to kill us, but take a note that in that vote Mathilde had the option to make the wrong choice as well so they can too. When 'them making the wrong choice' after a vote leads to death or exile maybe it is not the wisest thing to give them the chance to roll low
 
Maybe, but there's no need to limit it to just AV. This could have happened whilst codifying Rite of Way, or binding Apparitions, or trying to create that Malicious Mist Battlemagic spell.

An encounter with a Greater Demon is a known, if rare and unlucky, consequence of all spellcraft, and being suspicious of everything a wizard that a does and creates in the wake of such an incident is overkill.

Yes. But thee point isn't just that we encountered a Greater Daemon, it's that we think we can't handle the consequences of doing so and need to escalate the matter to the Grey College for them to take further action. That's what telling them is, given the default from what we know, based on discussion about the EIC, is that you only report things that need them to take action.

And this wasn't just an encounter, this was downloading information directly into Mathilde's mind, which is significantly more serious.

You know, for all blackmail material is one of the most classic elements in intelligence to flip enemy spies and figures is a classic thing here, I think that this, too, warrants inspection.

How do you get people to make and maintain a common understanding? Proximity and Communication. Break that, stop them talking to each other, place lies and secrets* between them, and all that falls apart.

*Not all secrets are equal of course, a good relationship can be built around the understands that some will be kept, but even that comes with conversation and understanding.

The thing is, the Greater Daemon has no blackmail material at all. It has no proof whatsoever about what occurred. It's no different to the situation if we'd never encountered the daemon. If we say nothing it has no more blackmail ability and no ability to isolate Mathilde from her allies more than it had before we encountered it.
 
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