I think the ambers are a shoe in for when we go after the whole network. We pretty much know they could draw us a map of most waystones in the empire (that aren't hidden in a city) and if we need a corrupted one or a destroyed one they also should be able to help. The building of a waystone itself seems not to be in their wheelhouse at all.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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NavySeel
"I don't know what I'm doing."
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Whether the Amber's have actionable information or not, I do think going to them for information on the networks layout and maybe asking if they have any good candidate stones that may be broken but not corrupted to study and collect samples from is something that seems useful even this early on.
One thing that got overlooked in the last update is that we finally have some confirmation that Ulthuan does have some capacity to fix the network still, more than either the Eonir or the dwarfs certainly and likely more than the Kislevites as well. Too bad they would not take an offer of cooperation well. Maybe in the future if we manage to actually get some skill in fixing stones and making tributaries.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
I mean, if their method does rely on a pre-existing supply of Old One monoliths, it wouldn't exactly be an available option for anyone else.
True, but it is not like they are the Ad Mech in 40K praying to the holy toaster, the Asur would understand what they are doing to at least some degree which would mean some kind of broadly applicable principles I would think
Actually if they need old stone monoliths they might not know enough. If they only have a manual in the sense of "put sign onto monolith, put monolith onto plinth. Press start."
I think it's probably something in the middle. They know enough to know that they need a monolith but not what the monolith does.
The way I see it the issue can be any of the following or a combination thereof:
- Not enough standing stones: they need those things to replace major stones and there are no more Old Ones to make them, they might even be cannibalizing the stones from places the network is less strained
- Not enough wizards: What it says on the tin, without dwarfs they are left with the long laborious and potentially dangerous process of making Gen 1 Waystones as were made in the days after the making of the Vortex
- Not enough force projection: The only place we know that they raised a new stone was in Maianburg, which is notable as being the only High Elf enclave in the Old World, maybe they do not trust these things out of their sight
- Location
- Chicago
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- She/They
My impression is that everyone on Mallus treats the waystone network more or less the same way we treat the issue of global warming.
You may infer from that how much I expect it to be an actual concern in the minds of policy makers.
Literally the WOG on the college option says "will trigger unwanted attention" so I'm not sure what you are basing "unlikely" on.
I would argue that it is worse. Imagine if only a small subset of the population would be able to even see the primary emissions (magic) and there are no instruments... also the world is feudal, no mass communication to raise awareness though. I mean you could make an argument that feudal lords would be more likely to think in the long run than elected officials since they are meant to think of rule in terms of generations and not election cycles, but that is a dutiful lord of which there aren't many
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- Washington
If we're being honest, the waystone matter is something that has been slowly getting worse for a VERY long time without getting catastrophic, and probably will continue on slowly getting worse without getting catastrophic for a very long time more. That waystones will ultimately matter is making some assumptions about holding off the next few everchosen that aren't actually guaranteed.
NavySeel
"I don't know what I'm doing."
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There's also the other flaw in feudal succession, even if your current lord is great there's no guarantee his successor will be.
I do not think we can assume an even rate of decline, less waystones means more magic more daemons and more chaos... which will all try to take down the waystones. It all goes slow until the last one which lets the Everchosen be just strong enough to take out whatever last stand champion of order came against them and then the world is doomed. The decay of the Network is not like global warming in that sense since there aren't CO2 Eldritch horrors out there trying to speed it up (oil companies come close though
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- Location
- Netherlands
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- She/Her
I don't think the politics of Waystones is nearly as bad as the politics of climate change in real life.
The thing about climate change isn't just that its hard to tangibly grasp its effects, its that there lies a great deal of power and influence in the hands of those who benefit from preventing action against climate change. Oil and coal and capitalism and all that.
In comparison, there aren't really any big players among the Order factions that would suffer from having more Waystones. It's still a matter of justifying the expenditure of time, effort, and resources, but there aren't nearly as many active saboteurs that weren't already enemies anyway.
Also, while climate change is a relatively recent worry for humanity, Chaos has always been a worry in this world. "fighting climate change" is something you need to explain the importance of, "fighting Chaos" is not. So while you might need to explain the value of Waystones themselves, you do not need to explain the importance of their purpose.
The thing about climate change isn't just that its hard to tangibly grasp its effects, its that there lies a great deal of power and influence in the hands of those who benefit from preventing action against climate change. Oil and coal and capitalism and all that.
In comparison, there aren't really any big players among the Order factions that would suffer from having more Waystones. It's still a matter of justifying the expenditure of time, effort, and resources, but there aren't nearly as many active saboteurs that weren't already enemies anyway.
Also, while climate change is a relatively recent worry for humanity, Chaos has always been a worry in this world. "fighting climate change" is something you need to explain the importance of, "fighting Chaos" is not. So while you might need to explain the value of Waystones themselves, you do not need to explain the importance of their purpose.
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- Washington
Sure we can't assume an even rate of decline but like... the ELVES aren't acting like this is expected to turn catastrophic (the elves involved are straight up hoping for national infrastructural benefits, not world savinv), if it's not looking like it'll turn catastrophic in elf lifetimes why would any humans be more concerned with the waystone network than directly prepping for the next everchosen.I do not think we can assume an even rate of decline, less waystones means more magic more daemons and more chaos... which will all try to take down the waystones. It all goes slow until the last one which lets the Everchosen be just strong enough to take out whatever last stand champion of order came against them and then the world is doomed. The decay of the Network is not like global warming in that sense since there aren't CO2 Eldritch horrors out there trying to speed it up (oil companies come close though
If we want to survive everchosen the thing to do is to set up as many order factions as possible making as many cannons as possible. The point where waystones matter more than that is WAY down the line.
I mean it's not like anyone has a holistic sense of how far gone any of this is, the Asur might come close but they aren't talking to us. We do not really know how bad it is except 'bad enough than when the last everchosen came the wastes expanded hundreds of miles'.
- Location
- USA
[x] Accede
kfrar
Aspiring Encyclopedia
College Dispensation isn't just us grabbing Dragomas and having the same conversation with the Emperor we'd have had anyway, it's -as you said - Dragomas relying on delegated authority, and Dragomas' authority is lesser than the Emperor's. The Emperor going out of his way to personally say "Yes, this thing you're doing is fine, go for it buckaroo" is more bulletproof than Dragomas doing so, especially when having Dragomas do so involves telling more people where to shoot their bullets.
I understand arguments that it shouldn't matter; I understand arguments that it won't matter. I even understand the argument that however little influence through Heidi this will cost us would be better spent elsewhere, though I personally prefer spending a pittance on preventative measures over calling in favors to deal with consequences.
But I do not get where the insistence that the personal backing of the Emperor is somehow not the strongest guarantee we can get is coming from.
All the colleges we asked provided the help we asked for. The favours we were asked in return were commensurate with the resources they were committing, worthy of a lady magister's attention and in the imperial interest. Nobody turned us away or started undermining the project.
This is what a very positive response looks like.
This is what a very positive response looks like.
NavySeel
"I don't know what I'm doing."
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It's literally the same piece of paper with ehe Emperor and Dragomas signatures.
How we went about getting it isn't going to be something pretty much anyone knows, going to the Emperor doesn't give it any greater authority, because he would be approving it if we went to Dragomas.
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- Washington
Getting what you paid for is a neutral response.
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- Earth
A positive response is closer to what Cadaeth did, whereas a somewhat negative response might involve a very high price (sure, that project is a total waste of time, but if she's so insistent about it, why not wring her for favors?).
I feel that a lot of the political opposition we're going to be facing isn't specifically directed at us because they hate the Project in particular, but because we're a piece on their playing board and it's funny when their opponent who was backing us gets screwed over.
I feel that a lot of the political opposition we're going to be facing isn't specifically directed at us because they hate the Project in particular, but because we're a piece on their playing board and it's funny when their opponent who was backing us gets screwed over.
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A statement that perfectly summarises every single CK2 campaign I've played.
The College dispensation and the Imperial dispensation are the same thing, the only difference is how we acquire it. Nobody is going to look at the College dispensation and say "Well, you filled out all the correct paperwork, but I don't recognise Dragomas's authority, so now I'm going to burn you for treason and heresy."
We go to the Emperor, he consults with Dragomas, and together they sign the dispensation in secret, so that nobody knows we are allowed to study treasonous and heretical magic (which in my view defeats the entire point of having a dispensation) or we go to Dragomas, he consults with the Emperor, they sign the the same dispensation, and then Dragosmas sends a note to the heads of the Grey, Gold, Jade and Light colleges to let them know what he and the Emperor just did and puts the whole thing on permanent record under high security clearance.
kfrar
Aspiring Encyclopedia
You're right - this isn't going to be something pretty much anything knows. This isn't going to be tried in the court of public opinion. If this ever becomes an issue at all, it will become an issue when somebody comes to us, and tries to squeeze us for concessions or just personally be rude.
And at that moment, being able to tell whoever is accosting us that this piece of paper was produced by having the Emperor personally tell us that our work sounds pretty cool would provide us with greater protection against their meddling than if we could only tell them the research was College sanctioned.
Especially if the source of the interference was within the Colleges.
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- Earth
Not really? Everyone who finds out we're studying dark magic is getting a paper with the Emperor's signature on it pushed in their face, which is the point of getting official permission. The thing is, even if they can't shut us down outright for the Dhar thing, they can still use it for fearmongering.
If few people know we're studying dark magic in the first place, and we can tell them we have permission, then that's no longer a problem on that front. It's just that I don't see the need to send a bunch of copies to a bunch of uninvolved people (some of whom might either be or tell troublemakers) just for the sake of bureaucracy.
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