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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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DragonParadox said:
Actually, wait... are we about to show off the Night Prowler to Regimand? Not that I am against it mind but I am sure it will raise some eyebrows.
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I hope he figures it out on his own.

Mathilde has never had reason or opportunity to test its effects when working with other people, so it would please me if he noticed something was up.

The old "unstoppable force of a lie you can't disbelieve vs. the immovable object of someone from the Grey College going "wait, why do I know for a fact that she is being honest?" only applied to the the bolded bit below:
- The Night Prowler: As long as you are outside of private property and within a town or city, nobody will question your presence and nobody will be able to find you if you do not wish them to. For non-human population centres, will work if it's not completely unknown for humans to be present, or if you are disguised as that species.
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[X] Plan CoolPlanName
 
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Boney said:
It wouldn't just be further Waystone assistance on the table, you could also use this to plump out the library or commission an enchantment or anything else the Light Order would be able to provide. And Mathilde would have a stronger bargaining position than she did previously for the same assistance because now she can point to an exact cause célèbre that Alric might be on the verge of claiming credit for.
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You had me at 'library.'
[X] Plan Redshirt v1
[X] Plan Renegotiation
 
LightLan said:
We are mindholing them.

If there are servants, they'll get mindholed as well. Doesn't matter if the daemon has contacts, no one will remember us.

And Mathilde is a very good infiltrator even without the coin.
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I would not bet on Chaos cultists being as easy to mind-hole as normal people, for one thing there is quite the suite of metal mutations out there. Mindhole is only a Relatively Simple spell for most of our stealth.
 
DragonParadox said:
I would not bet on Chaos cultists being as easy to mind-hole as normal people, for one thing there is quite the suite of metal mutations out there. Mindhole is only a Relatively Simple spell for most of our stealth.
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The simplicity of Mindhole doesn't matter. The way it works is that it's an opposed Willpower test:

"If the target fails an Opposed Will Power Test with you, all knowledge and memory of your existence is wiped from his mind."

Willpower is either Learning or Piety. The reason Mathilde has never failed in a Mindhole is because she never used it on a person with particularly powerful mental/spiritual resistance.

I have a feeling the thread sometimes views Mindhole as infallible, but it really isn't. It works because of the targets we choose. I'm not entirely certain on your hypothesis of Chaos Cultists being inside the Hunting Lodge, but theoretically, in your suggested scenario, Mindhole actually isn't a guaranteed win scenario.

It's not a perfect spell.
 
BeepSmile said:
I hope he figures it out on his own.

Mathilde has never had reason or opportunity to test its effects when working with other people, so it would please me if he noticed something was up.

The old "unstoppable force of a lie you can't disbelieve vs. the immovable object of someone from the Grey College going "wait, why do I know for a fact that she is being honest?" only applied to the the bolded bit below:
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Ah... wait that means Mathilde could just go 'I wish Regimand can keep track of me' and he would have nothing to go on but other people's reactions, which could just be down to being unobservant. I think she can keep the coin secret, fun as it would be to show it off.
 
DragonParadox said:
Ah... wait that means Mathilde could just go 'I wish Regimand can keep track of me' and he would have nothing to go on but other people's reactions, which could just be down to being unobservant. I think she can keep the coin secret, fun as it would be to show it off.
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Regimand has windsight and he's sharp. We've never tested what another person sees with their windsight when the Coin is in effect, but Regimand might notice discrepancies in the Ulgu manifestation of a person's thought process when interacting with Mathilde. Theoretically. It would require an impressive level of alertness, but he certainly has that. It also would require a good magesight, but Regimand taught Mathilde what she knows, even if she surpassed him in that area.

We could keep it secret, but it's not out of the realm of possibility that he notices that something is off. Most likely, he'd assume it's a magic artifact she found or a new spell she's keeping hidden than Ranald's Coin.
 
I think people are over-estimating our own abilities and under-estimating Alric and the Lights in general for this kind of assignement. Bringing in Light wizards means skipping on a lot of research that we would be doing in a rush because they would already know all this stuff. Plus, if we make this an official request from Mira, there is no reason NOT to approach Alric and it would be even harder for him to refuse us.

Bringing in our Lights and/or Alric skips a lot of research and investigation and raises our chances of stopping the murders as soon as possible. And realisticly, Alric's plan is pretty great on paper, I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up working. Better cut the grass under his foot by making it a shared endeavour.

[X] Plan Bring In The Light College
-[X] Renegotiate with Mira
-[X] Bring in Egrimm and Elrisse
-[X] Investigate Krieglitz Manor

[X] Plan Strongarm
-[X] Renegotiate with Mira
-[X] Bring in Egrimm and Elrisse
-[X] Approach Alric directly

Also approval voting for those since they include renegociation. Being able to bring Egrimm and/or Elrisse is huge in my opinion since they both are specialists in the matter.

[X] Plan Renegotiation
[X] Plan Redshirt v1
 
Sparsebeard said:
I think people are over-estimating our own abilities and under-estimating Alric and the Lights in general for this kind of assignement. Bringing in Light wizards means skipping on a lot of research that we would be doing in a rush because they would already know all this stuff. Plus, if we make this an official request from Mira, there is no reason NOT to approach Alric and it would be even harder for him to refuse us.

Bringing in our Lights and/or Alric skips a lot of research and investigation and raises our chances of stopping the murders as soon as possible. And realisticly, Alric's plan is pretty great on paper, I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up working. Better cut the grass under his foot by making it a shared endeavour.
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I don't think bringing in the Lights will help us at the research stage at all. The only unique thing they can contribute is anti-chaos magics, but we don't really need that—certainly not at this stage of the investigation. Besides, it will cost two actions to bring them in officially, and we only have eight until the next murder. That's a quarter of our actions spent on recruitment. And how many actions will it really save in the long run? Maybe the chaos vengeance and murder ritual actions? They won't be able to do anything on the turn we recruit them on, because they'll spend most of that week on shadowsteeds blazing across the countryside. Not to mention that bringing in more people will make it much harder to conceal our true objective, which is to stop anyone finding out that Heidi is a Ranaldian priestess and that Mandred is our godson—because if the wrong ears hear that, they are both dead.

This is the waystone project all over again—except here we're on a time limit. We should not be scared of starting before we've amassed every possible advantage—sometimes we need to accept that we are as prepared as possible and just dive in. This is one of those times.
 
picklepikkl said:
I agree, I don't feel the need to renegotiate with Mira. Would rather use the time on something directly useful to cracking the case in the limited time we have.
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I don't think renegociating with Mira is a wasted action. If anything, reinvestigating things that Alric probably already has investigated and/or researching (in a rush) things that anti-chaos specialists would already know such as Alberich's form, Chaotic Vengeance and Murder Rituals is the real waste of time.

Plus, I think it's VERY optimistic to think that we wil be able to close the case without Alric either noticing or being the one to slay the deamon seems pretty unlikely. After all, many investigative path will leave tracks and Alric's plan is probably more likely to work than anything we cook out in a rush.

By renegotiating with Mira, we also shift the blame on her. She gets part of the credit for sending us in.

Also, by renegociating with Mira we can also negociate for help actually cracking the case.

TLDR : If anything, renegociation is the most efficient action to crack the case without Alric getting the credit.
 
[X] Plan CoolPlanName

I also like the other two top plans (which differ from this one by one action) but this one I like best. I will approval vote the other two if Renegotiation starts gaining.
Speaking of which, I really dislike the idea of renegotiating with Mira at this point. If we think the investigation is over and we have time to spare then we can talk about maximizing our own selfish gains. Until then, I would rather we focus on stopping Chaos and saving innocent lives.
 
mathymancer said:
Speaking of which, I really dislike the idea of renegotiating with Mira at this point. If we think the investigation is over and we have time to spare then we can talk about maximizing our own selfish gains. Until then, I would rather we focus on stopping Chaos and saving innocent lives.
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We have eight weeks until the next person dies, and the "selfish gains" part of this is getting more support on the waystone project. You know, the thing we're angling to maximise the benefits from to save countless lives in the future? I weigh the benefits of the Waystone Project more greatly than the life of a single noble.
 
mathymancer said:
[X] Plan CoolPlanName

I also like the other two top plans (which differ from this one by one action) but this one I like best. I will approval vote the other two if Renegotiation starts gaining.
Speaking of which, I really dislike the idea of renegotiating with Mira at this point. If we think the investigation is over and we have time to spare then we can talk about maximizing our own selfish gains. Until then, I would rather we focus on stopping Chaos and saving innocent lives.
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The problem is that if we finish this then we don't have a basis to stand on for negotiation, we already did what we did why should Mira pay us for something she didn't agree to.
 
You barely have time to also visit the public park of the Taalgarten and the conservatory of the Sea of Roses, taking advantage of the Coin's effects to take a few interesting cuttings for Panoramia while you do so, before your vacation plans are interrupted by an Illusion-clad Regimand arriving at the daily rendezvous point a mere four days after the letter was sent. Alys Schmidt makes a show of greeting him politely while he wraps the two of you in Cloak Activity.
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You know, it occurs to me that if the rendezvous point is outside and in town, Mathilde would be impossible to spot (since she has Night Prowler up) and would therefore have been certain to be the one to surprise Regimand rather than the other way around.

Which is exactly the sort of game you know two Grey Wizards meeting in a public location always play. Who spots who first? And he's going to lose every goddamn time they're on this mission together and need to meet somewhere in town. Hah-hah.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
I don't think bringing in the Lights will help us at the research stage at all. The only unique thing they can contribute is anti-chaos magics, but we don't really need that—certainly not at this stage of the investigation.
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It also means the difference between a fast research and bringing in people who actually studied those subjects for years and have done similar investigations in the past. If we study ourselves, we litteraly roll the dice on the quality of information we get.

Plus, if we approach Alric, we get some or all of his previous investigations depending on how collaborative he feels.

After that, we can focus on what is actually missing instead of redoing what Alric has already done or researching what our subordinates already know better than us.

Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Not to mention that bringing in more people will make it much harder to conceal our true objective, which is to stop anyone finding out that Heidi is a Ranaldian priestess and that Mandred is our godson—because if the wrong ears hear that, they are both dead.
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I feel the best way to avoid that is by making it about Mira and Alric as much as possible and closing the case as soon as possible. The best way to do that is to use the specialists we have on hand.
 
Sparsebeard said:
I don't think renegociating with Mira is a wasted action. If anything, reinvestigating things that Alric probably already has investigated and/or researching (in a rush) things that anti-chaos specialists would already know such as Alberich's form, Chaotic Vengeance and Murder Rituals is the real waste of time.

Plus, I think it's VERY optimistic to think that we wil be able to close the case without Alric either noticing or being the one to slay the deamon seems pretty unlikely. After all, many investigative path will leave tracks and Alric's plan is probably more likely to work than anything we cook out in a rush.

By renegotiating with Mira, we also shift the blame on her. She gets part of the credit for sending us in.

Also, by renegociating with Mira we can also negociate for help actually cracking the case.

TLDR : If anything, renegociation is the most efficient action to crack the case without Alric getting the credit.
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Real talk: do we actually care if Alric gets the credit or not?
Boney said:
Your implied objective: Limit or prevent Alric getting credit for saving the Unfähigers.
Your actual objective: Ensure this matter is resolved without revealing the Empress is not a Haupt-Anderssen.
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If we fail to limit Alric getting credit, but do prevent Heidi getting outed, I think we call it a win and not a loss. We agreed to investigate for Mira, not to interfere, and I'd prefer to keep that freedom of action rather than commit ourselves to having to stop Alric from getting the credit if it turns out that letting him play hero will keep the Empire from dissolving in scandal.

Besides, as @Nerdasaurus Rex pointed out, renegotiating with Mira and then bringing in a Light for this investigation would be a full quarter of the actions we have until the next murder. That's a lot to wager on "they will have enough information to offer that it will save us actions overall."
 
picklepikkl said:
Real talk: do we actually care if Alric gets the credit or not?

If we fail to limit Alric getting credit, but do prevent Heidi getting outed, I think we call it a win and not a loss. We agreed to investigate for Mira, not to interfere, and I'd prefer to keep that freedom of action rather than commit ourselves to having to stop Alric from getting the credit if it turns out that letting him play hero will keep the Empire from dissolving in scandal.

Besides, as @Nerdasaurus Rex pointed out, renegotiating with Mira and then bringing in a Light for this investigation would be a full quarter of the actions we have until the next murder. That's a lot to wager on "they will have enough information to offer that it will save us actions overall."
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Elrisse is a High Luminary, the highest level of Witch Hunter in the Light Order as well as an Abjurer, which indicates expertise in Daemon Hunting:
Codex said:
Her full title is High Luminary, Treatite, and Abjurer Elrisse, which signify a Lord Magister who focuses on the pursuit of practitioners of unsanctioned magic and has secondary specializations in academia and the banishment of Daemons.
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Horstmann is also an Abjurer and a Daemon Slayer. These options:
Boney said:
[ ] Research: Alberich's form
Alberich would not have been unchanged from a trip to and return from the Chaos realm. Research what changes may have occurred to him that may help you locate him.
[ ] Research: Chaotic Vengeance
This would be far from the first time someone's sold themselves to the Dark Gods for vengeance, and the Dark Gods tend to act in patterns. Research earlier examples of the same phenomenon.
[ ] Research: Murder Rituals
Eight quiet murders in one family forty years. Eight brutal murders in one family in forty months. This smacks of some sort of ritual. Go digging through every resource you can find for what this might be about, and what might happen if it goes uninterrupted.
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Are likely covered by their expertise. Neither Regimand nor Mathilde are proficient Daemon Hunters. They focused more on societal manipulation and subterfuge than Daemon Hunting, which is the Light Order's specialty.
 
Codex said:
We have eight weeks until the next person dies, and the "selfish gains" part of this is getting more support on the waystone project. You know, the thing we're angling to maximise the benefits from to save countless lives in the future? I weigh the benefits of the Waystone Project more greatly than the life of a single noble.
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I'm sure the Alrics of the world tell themselves something like that every time they maximize their own personal goals rather than do their jobs.
We already have the assistance of the Lights, they are on the project. Do we need more? Maybe, we don't know. But if we decide that we do, we can always do some favour for Mira at a later date. It would be inconvenient, but it wouldn't be impossible. It would be impossible to bring back to life the people who are about to be murdered, and I value the life of a single person (noble or otherwise) over our personal convenience.

Tobtorp said:
The problem is that if we finish this then we don't have a basis to stand on for negotiation, we already did what we did why should Mira pay us for something she didn't agree to.
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If we have any spare time left when we feel our investigation is done to negotiate, we negotiate. Obviously we won't tell Mira we're moments from the finish line and just trying to squeeze her for what we can.
If we don't find ourselves with any spare time, then it sure is good we didn't waste any time negotiating.
 
mathymancer said:
I'm sure the Alric's of the world tell themselves something like that every time they maximize their own personal goals rather than do their jobs.
We already have the assistance of the Lights, they are on the project. Do we need more? Maybe, we don't know. But if we decide that we do, we can always do some favour for Mira at a later date. It would be inconvenient, but it wouldn't be impossible. It would be impossible to bring back to life the people who are about to be murdered, and I value the life of a single person (noble or otherwise) over our personal convenience.
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This feels like an indirect jab, and I'm not sure how to respond. Are you calling me an Alric or something? If you're going to disparage me, at least be direct about it.
 
picklepikkl said:
Real talk: do we actually care if Alric gets the credit or not?

If we fail to limit Alric getting credit, but do prevent Heidi getting outed, I think we call it a win and not a loss. We agreed to investigate for Mira, not to interfere, and I'd prefer to keep that freedom of action rather than commit ourselves to having to stop Alric from getting the credit if it turns out that letting him play hero will keep the Empire from dissolving in scandal.

Besides, as @Nerdasaurus Rex pointed out, renegotiating with Mira and then bringing in a Light for this investigation would be a full quarter of the actions we have until the next murder. That's a lot to wager on "they will have enough information to offer that it will save us actions overall."
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I think we have interferred enough in Alric's affairs to have a vested interest in him not regaining power.

And brining in the Lights also means getting their anti-chaos magics. If people are right and the demon ends up going for the hunting lodge instead, we are going to need some staying power to actually slay the deamon and Egrimm has shown that he has that kind of power.

Plus, any anti-chaos research we do in a rush is much more likely to be flawed than Egrimm, Elrisse or Alric's pre-existing knowledge on the matter. It allows us to focus on things we are actually good at.
 
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