Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Derpmind · Dec 21, 2021

Derpmind said:
I know some people are voting to prioritize windherding, or rituals, or other actions. Would people be willing to vote for a variant of my plan that switches things around to do one(?) of those actions instead?

...

Ok, I haven't gotten direct feedback on this, but I've seen plenty of people objecting to the Kurgan weapons and that would really like us to do the Rituals action. Also I've slept on it, and I personally think picking up the knowledge of Rituals is going to be much more useful for us that likely nothing better than a handful of college favor. So:

I want to switch Max's action in my plan to learning rituals. If I haven't heard much/any pushback against this in about the next 12 hours, I'm going to make that change. And if lots of people support the change, I'll make it sooner just to get things moving.

(Putting in a windherding action would be too big a change in what the plan does. I think it'd only be fair as a plan variant, not a plan alteration. Sorry.)

Also, adding an approval vote:

[X] Plan Stacking Advantages
[X] Plan Pickle's Political Protector Proposal

DragonParadox · Dec 21, 2021

Tobtorp said:
How tf would the weapons help with waystones? And yes, our shadows steed is pretty neat. It totally sucks ass if we want to have a group bigger then one... And we only need a landing pad if we want it close to the tower (though we probably should build one)

And the fading of memories is kinda not a big deal because we already have so much favour. We don't need to write a research paper for literally everything...

Actually we can cast shadow steeds for other people as well, though they would not be as good as ours.

MonkeyTypewriter · Dec 21, 2021

[X] Plan Stacking Advantages

Candesce · Dec 21, 2021

Derpmind said:
I want to switch Max's action in my plan to learning rituals.

I don't feel strongly about this either way; it won't change my vote for your plan.

ReImagined · Dec 21, 2021

DragonParadox said:
What is Alric going to do, crawl to Dragonas to complain about the Grey wizard looking into his affairs?

Personally, I think that if he gets foiled in Talabecland, Nordland could be a willing patron.

Swantree said:
While I also like the Gyro option, I think the reason is that Kurgan would help with waystone research. Also while gyro has a been an option since a while ago, research papers are subject to urgency because of the memory mechanic. Gyro isn't also that high in priorities to make a decisive enough difference. We'd have to build a landing pad and our shadowsteed hasn't been slow enough to give us trouble yet.

We might also have trouble with using gyrocopters in Laurelorn? Maybe, probably not.

Boney said:
Returning from Altdorf with you is Maximillian, who has been busily scouring the libraries of Altdorf for any trace of Waystone information, and you read through his notes on the gyrocopter ride to Middenheim and have him fill you in verbally in the relative quiet of the trip into Laurelorn.

Currently, the gyrocopter route karak-hops from K8P all the way to Middenheim, which is over a thousand miles, and from there she uses shadowsteed for that last stretch. Learning to fly doesn't make us able to land in Laurelorn, but it does unlock using the gyrocopter to its full potential.

picklepikkl · Dec 21, 2021

So, one thing @Thomasfoolery said stuck with me:

Thomasfoolery said:
The more I look at the Stacking Advantages plan idea to just get to know the Frost Ward while also statring to lay the foundations, the worse an idea it seems

Mathilde: Hey Cadeath, how are things going over here, mind showing me around?
Cadaeth: Sure, let me introduce you to some people
....
Mathilde: Well thanks for the tour, be seeing you.
Cadaeth: Not a problem, say about when do you expect to start up the project?
Mathilde: Oh, I've been working on that for the past few months, making great progress.
Cadaeth: I see... I suppose our invitation got lost in the mail...?

This seems like a really good point: if we investigate the Frost Ward and don't lay the foundations on the same turn, it's fine, but doing the first real "start the project" thing without trying to bring in Cadaeth feels... potentially incredibly uncomfortable. Not necessarily incredibly uncomfortable, but we don't know (because we haven't talked to Cadaeth yet) and that's the problem.

The result of this musing is that I'm getting more enamored of "starting up debt free" as a plan outline, but really don't like "bring Egrimm to investigate his own ex-boss about whom he has extremely complicated feelings." That also seems like playing with lit matches and gunpowder.

DragonParadox · Dec 21, 2021

ReImagined said:
Personally, I think that if he gets foiled in Talabecland, Nordland could be a willing patron.

A willing patron in what exactly? Norland cannot declare war on the Eonir with any hope of victory and as a wizard of the Colleges Alric cannot help them with that anyway. He is also really bad at anything truly covert because well... order of light, he is constitutionally adverse to much of that thinking,

Swantree · Dec 21, 2021

Tobtorp said:
How tf would the weapons help with waystones? And yes, our shadows steed is pretty neat. It totally sucks ass if we want to have a group bigger then one... And we only need a landing pad if we want it close to the tower (though we probably should build one)

And the fading of memories is kinda not a big deal because we already have so much favour. We don't need to write a research paper for literally everything...

As I said, I am not familiar with Warhammer, my point was that people had a reason. We can use and have used shadowsteed for multiple people. I think we talked over each other and I need to reiterate, I don't know why you brought up favors when I didn't mention them. But I related the research with the waystone project.

In case you think I'm doing this to convince you to vote for the currently winning vote, I voted for Starting Up Debt Free.

Tobtorp · Dec 21, 2021

Swantree said:
As I said, I am not familiar with Warhammer, my point was that people had a reason. We can use and have used shadowsteed for multiple people. I think we talked over each other and I need to reiterate, I don't know why you brought up favors when I didn't mention them. But I related the research with the waystone project.

In case you think I'm doing this to convince you to vote for the currently winning vote, I voted for Starting Up Debt Free.

I brought up the favours because you brought up the research papers, because that is what we get from the papers, collage favours. And I still haven't gotten an answer to why the kurgan weapons would help with the wqystones in any way. And you answered that it wss my expectations you had a idea for that...

Redshirt Army · Dec 21, 2021

picklepikkl said:
So, one thing @Thomasfoolery said stuck with me:

This seems like a really good point: if we investigate the Frost Ward and don't lay the foundations on the same turn, it's fine, but doing the first real "start the project" thing without trying to bring in Cadaeth feels... potentially incredibly uncomfortable. Not necessarily incredibly uncomfortable, but we don't know (because we haven't talked to Cadaeth yet) and that's the problem.

The result of this musing is that I'm getting more enamored of "starting up debt free" as a plan outline, but really don't like "bring Egrimm to investigate his own ex-boss about whom he has extremely complicated feelings." That also seems like playing with lit matches and gunpowder.

Consider the following:

[X] Plan Compromise
-[X] MAX: Learning: Rituals from the colleges. Mathilde pays gold costs.
-[X] EGRIMM: Attempt a Windherder enchantment with Egrimm
--[X] Shadowsteed & Clarity, allowing the user to ride all night without sleep
-[X] WEB-MAT: Investigate Gryphon Wood with one or more members of WEB-MAT (Johann)
-[X] Personally scrutinize a Waystone as thoroughly as you possibly can.
-[X] Attempt to bring a Major House or Ward into the Waystone Project (Frost)
-[X] Investigate Alric
-[X] EIC: Try to uncover what's going on in Gryphon's Wood.
-[X] Library: Seek an agreement with a Cult to have access to their libraries (Quinsberry)
-[X] SERENITY: Write a paper: Observations of Johann's prosthetic arm (FRESH)
-[X] COIN: The Night Prowler

Swantree · Dec 21, 2021

Derpmind said:
I want to switch Max's action in my plan to learning rituals. If I haven't heard much/any pushback against this in about the next 12 hours, I'm going to make that change. And if lots of people support the change, I'll make it sooner just to get things moving.

With this the main differences will be the:
Johann, Egrimm, and Library actions
[] Plan Stacking Advantages
Johann on Alric
Egrimm on Gryphon's woods
Library for Verenna
[] Plan Starting up debt free
Johann on Gryphon's woods
Egrimm on Alric
Library for Brettonia

OOC-wise they're pretty negligible on the whole. They do the same actions, even the library ones since it's a matter of sequence.

Whether you believe that Egrimm will help with Alric, or that it will cause unforeseen complications. The succcess of the investigation will still depend on dice rolls.

So if you are only focused on the personal actions themselves, they shouldn't be any difference between the two.

picklepikkl · Dec 21, 2021

Redshirt Army said:
Consider the following:

[X] Plan Compromise
-[X] MAX: Learning: Rituals from the colleges. Mathilde pays favor costs.
-[X] EGRIMM: Attempt a Windherder enchantment with Egrimm
--[X] Shadowsteed & Clarity, allowing the user to ride all night without sleep
-[X] WEB-MAT: Investigate Gryphon Wood with one or more members of WEB-MAT (Johann)
-[X] Personally scrutinize a Waystone as thoroughly as you possibly can.
-[X] Attempt to bring a Major House or Ward into the Waystone Project (Frost)
-[X] Investigate Alric
--[X] COIN: The Night Prowler
-[X] EIC: Try to uncover what's going on in Gryphon's Wood.
-[X] Library: Seek an agreement with a Cult to have access to their libraries (Verenans)
-[X] SERENITY: Write a paper: Observations of Johann's prosthetic arm (FRESH)

That's not bad at all. As per standard for these things, either it will rocket to the top of the vote (because it unifies the things people like) or it will languish at the bottom (because it contains none of the things people really want). Two notes:

It seems you intend to pay for the Rituals class with CF rather than gold. Is that intentional? You should make it more explicit if so.
Night Prowler doesn't need to be assigned to a specific action, but rather than be on the turn as a whole. Who knows, it might come in handy in Gryphon Wood.

[X] Plan Pickle's Political Protector Proposal
[X] Plan Stacking Advantages
[X] Plan Compromise
[ ] Plan Compromise + Verenans

Redshirt Army · Dec 21, 2021

picklepikkl said:
Two notes

Fixed both, thanks!

mathymancer · Dec 21, 2021

I still don't get the point of the EIC action for the Gryphon's Wood when we are going there ourselves, for reasons I've gone over before, but this does seem like an improvement on the current leading plan. It also finally does windherding, and while I personally don't care much for windherding it is nice to finally get around to it.

SuperSonicSound · Dec 21, 2021

DragonParadox said:
At this point any plan that at the very least puts the Gambler on the foundation has my vote.

I still maintain that doing the framework this turn is a mistake and we should use the gambler on scrutinising the waystone, if we do both this turn we don't have any opportunities to fill in our gaps in knowledge before the framework action is taken. That said I agree if the framework is being done it needs the Gambler as well.

Derpmind · Dec 21, 2021

I still don't think Night Prowler is a good use of the Coin; Mathilde can already hide very well in a human city. IMO it's better to use The Gambler to have a trick or two up our sleeve that Alric wouldn't consider defending against. But aside that I'm ok with this Compromise plan.

[X] Plan Stacking Advantages
[X] Plan Pickle's Political Protector Proposal
[X] Plan Compromise

Redshirt Army · Dec 21, 2021

I'm very indifferent about the EIC action, so if more people say they prefer something else, I'll change it - that's the essence of compromise, no?

Swantree · Dec 21, 2021

Tobtorp said:
I brought up the favours because you brought up the research papers, because that is what we get from the papers, collage favours. And I still haven't gotten an answer to why the kurgan weapons would help with the wqystones in any way. And you answered that it wss my expectations you had a idea for that...

Sorry for being unhelpful, I'm really ignorant about Warhammer. I was mostly replying to this

Tobtorp said:
Can someone explain to me why we have max research the kurgan weapons if we... Oh I don't know... Could finally learn how to use the damn gyrocopter we have that has been covering dust in karak eight peak?

I interpreted that as "Why is it that the plan puts the Max action to write about the Kurgan thing instead of learning to use a gyrocopter?", if your meaning was that we should pick it because it's been neglected, I'm sorry.

My response was saying "The intention was that it would help with waystone research so it got put into the plan".

mathymancer · Dec 21, 2021

Redshirt Army said:
I'm very indifferent about the EIC action, so if more people say they prefer something else, I'll change it - that's the essence of compromise, no?

Well, as long as we're voicing our concerns, I also dislike the library action. Of the three leading plans, the two plans that currently share first place include the actions
-[ ] EIC: Try to uncover what's going on in Gryphon's Wood.
-[ ] Library: Seek an agreement with a Cult to have access to their libraries (Verenans)
while the third plan includes
-[ ] EIC: Investigate what trade goods the Eonir might be willing to import from the Empire. (NEW)
-[ ] Seek the publishing contacts to start acquiring large amounts of books from a nearby realm (Bretonnia)
I personally prefer the second set of options to the first, but I don't know how common that is - honestly I think EIC and library actions are pretty low in priority for most people.

Altom · Dec 21, 2021

For now this will do.
[X] Plan Compromise

The Phoenixian · Dec 21, 2021

[X] Plan Pickle's Political Protector Proposal
[X] Plan Compromise
[X] Plan Starting up debt free, Windherd Edition
[X] Plan Stacking Advantages, Windherd Edition

Even if it's final form and the coin or EIC changes, I'm quite okay with plan compromise.

LilyWitch · Dec 21, 2021

[X] Plan Pickle's Political Protector Proposal
[X] Plan Stacking Advantages
[X] Plan Compromise

IronFist · Dec 21, 2021

[X] Plan Compromise

Jyn Ryvia · Dec 21, 2021

[X] Plan Compromise

Not happy, but it is at lest some things.

Briefvoice · Dec 21, 2021

picklepikkl said:
The result of this musing is that I'm getting more enamored of "starting up debt free" as a plan outline, but really don't like "bring Egrimm to investigate his own ex-boss about whom he has extremely complicated feelings." That also seems like playing with lit matches and gunpowder.

Do it and be legends!

Look, I really think the thread has been way over-cautious of Egrimm. You know what, if we offend him we can apologize. We've been through some shit together by now. I think Mathilde has a little credit in the bank. I'd actually rather he be angry for a while but at least we know the full extent of his feelings rather than this constant tip-toeing.

Like, what is the worst possible outcome here? What are we really afraid of?

EDIT: That Egrimm gets mad, quits, and stomps off? You know what, if he's the sort of person likely to do that then I'd rather it happen now before we invest even more in him.

Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

This isn't even my nerdiest form

Cannon Fodder

This isn't even my nerdiest form

Cannon Fodder

Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal

Cannon Fodder

I might have quest addiction

The Glacier Witch