Remove ads

Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Reader mode
DragonParadox said:
Guys just because we cannot see diplo rolls does not mean they do not exist and I really do not think getting Thorek and the Grey Lords to actually cough up secrets to each other and not condescend is going to be an easy job. Remember how it went with Algard and Kragg when we made the tower, well I am betting Algard is a lot thicker skinned then the Grey Lords of Laurenlorn, since he has not had millennia at the peak of his craft.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I agree with your assessment of the situation. Spending Gambler on framework is a much better choice.

I would much prefer if we started with books from Bretonnia rather than the Verenans, I feel that EIC is wasted on Gryphon's Wood and would be much better spent on Eonir trade and I would like to learn about the rituals while the weapons aren't going anywhere.

Unfortunately:

Boney said:
"Outranking you gives me no utility," you say instead. "If you don't want to be a part of what I'm doing, then using rank to force you would be the same stupid mistake Alric made. I'd rather have no help at all than rightfully recalcitrant help."
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
 
Lampshade said:
I agree with your assessment of the situation. Spending Gambler on framework is a much better choice.

I would much prefer if we started with books from Bretonnia rather than the Verenans, I feel that EIC is wasted on Gryphon's Wood and would be much better spent on Eonir trade and I would like to learn about the rituals while the weapons aren't going anywhere.

Unfortunately:
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I mean... you know we could just ask? @Boney what does Horstman think of helping to investigate his former boss?
 
I understand the arguments against having Egrimm investigate Alric. But the idea that Johann is a good alternative is frankly bewildering.
If we didn't have WEB-MAT I don't believe for a second that anyone would be advocating taking Johann with us on the investigation. It's just that if we want to use a WEB-MAT action to free our personal actions we have to bring someone, and if you don't want to bring Egrimm you have to have to come up with someone else who will come with us.
 
mathymancer said:
I'm not sure if I understand your reasoning here. You agreed with a post that said windherding was better than Kurgan weapon studies and then voted for a plan with Kurgan weapon study and no windherding. Did you perhaps mean to vote for [] Plan Starting up debt free, Windherd Edition? Or []Plan Stacking Advantages, Windherd Edition?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I think I miscopied a previous vote I was updating, yeah.

[X] Plan Starting up debt free
[X] Plan Pickle's Political Protector Proposal
 
Horologer said:
"What do you think of helping to investigate your boss" seems like the kind of question you don't want to ask unless you know they'll give you the right kind of answer.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Er... why? Seriously do you trust this man or not? Because if you cannot even ask the question in the privacy of Laurelorn as a hypothetical I am not sure what he is doing here... well other than bitching about said boss 24/7. That might be a clue as to the answer.
 
I mean, Investigating Alric with him was straight out an option last turn.

Boney said:
WEB-MAT: Magister Egrimm van Horstmann, Light Wizard
[ ] EGRIMM: Investigate what Alric is up to. (NEW)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I really don't think any sort of objection he has to the matter has to do with anything but practical hurdles (Which I think between Mathilde and him they're eminently capable of working around) rather than some sort of philosophical objection to spiking Alric's wheels (Which would completely clash with basically all the interactions we've had with him once he let his guard down enough to let his feelings show). I'm also not at all worried that he's suddenly going to go off the chain and make some dumb move compromising the investigation out of spite. Considering both his wind, and his demonstrated competence it just doesn't seem like a particularly relevant concern. Additionally he doesn't just want Alric out, he also clearly very much admires Mira, so it's not even a contest between someone he doesn't like and someone else he doesn't like or is neutral about.

mathymancer said:
What mundane detective work? What could possibly make you think Johann is good at any type of detective work?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

He's very good at ingratiating himself with people and is an excellent liar. Those are two pretty solid building blocks for the job.
 
Last edited:
Worth keeping in mind that in the Empire all wizards suffer from the universal diplomacy debuff known as 'being a wizard' at least if they are known by it... such as a man might be if they have blazing gold eyes.
 
Thomasfoolery said:
He's very good at ingratiating himself with people and is an excellent liar. Those are two pretty solid building blocks for the job.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
He also has molten gold for eyeballs and a body made of gold. He is extremely recognizable. It would be trivial to find out that he was there if he goes around talking to people. Bringing him to the investigation means giving up on the idea of investigating Alric without his knowledge - he will find out.
Being likable and a good liar are, as you say, 'solid building blocks', but he has literally no experience or training doing this kind of work. None whatsoever. Maybe he could learn it if he wanted, but he never did and he is unfit for this task. And he has no particular insight into Alric's character like Egrimm does.
Again, what do you see Johann actually doing? Going around interrogating people? Why do you think he knows what kind of questions to ask in an investigation and how to handle a suspect or a witness when he has never done anything like this before? What expertise does he have?
DragonParadox said:
Worth keeping in mind that in the Empire all wizards suffer from the universal diplomacy debuff known as 'being a wizard' at least if they are known by it... such as a man might be if they have blazing gold eyes.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yes, very much so. It's easy to forget this because we spent so much of the quest in K8P, which is unusually wizard friendly.
 
DragonParadox said:
Worth keeping in mind that in the Empire all wizards suffer from the universal diplomacy debuff known as 'being a wizard' at least if they are known by it... such as a man might be if they have blazing gold eyes.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

True, he's definitely not my first choice for the job. But if it was put to him I do think he would have decent odds of making something useful happen.

mathymancer said:
He also has molten gold for eyeballs and a body made of gold. He is extremely recognizable. It would be trivial to find out that he was there if he goes around talking to people. Bringing him to the investigation means giving up on the idea of investigating Alric without his knowledge - he will find out.
Being likable and a good liar are, as you say, 'solid building blocks', but he has literally no experience or training doing this kind of work. None whatsoever. Maybe he could learn it if he wanted, but he never did and he is unfit for this task. And he has no particular insight into Alric's character like Egrimm does.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

He 100% has experience creating a cover and inserting himself into a population while maintaining that cover, It's how we met him.

mathymancer said:
Again, what do you see Johann actually doing? Going around interrogating people? Why do you think he knows what kind of questions to ask in an investigation and how to handle a suspect or a witness when he has never done anything like this before? What expertise does he have?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

He would probably talk to people and try to find out clues about the monster doing the killing. He could easily come up with a rationale for that. Alric may or may not find out sure.
 
Thomasfoolery said:
I mean, Investigating Alric with him was straight out an option last turn.
[ ] EGRIMM: Investigate what Alric is up to. (NEW)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...


The fact that there are so many issues to discuss and that it's such a controversial topic are indicators in and of themselves. There are just too many things that could go wrong, up to a fringe chance that he's not a cultist yet and a critical failure here pushes him over the edge. Why risk that?
mathymancer said:
What could possibly make you think Johann is good at any type of detective work?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Mathilde is good at sneaking into places and interrogating confined people but Johann is the kind of guy I'd sit down for a beer with.

As for being easily found, 50k+ is enough to get lost in the crowd. Even if he's discovered, Johann has a plausible excuse of simply being attracted to a big event, whereas Egrimm being found looking into what Alric is doing, even if he's less likely to be discovered, has a completely different context.
 
Thomasfoolery said:
He 100% has experience creating a cover and inserting himself into a population while maintaining that cover, It's how we met him.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
"Creating a cover and inserting himself into a population"? He was a Gold wizard, openly declaring himself to be a Gold wizard, joining an expedition that included wizards. He was lying about his eventual goals and about his exact rank in the Colleges, that was the extent of his deception. How is this anywhere close to doing detective work?
Thomasfoolery said:
He would probably talk to people and try to find out clues about the monster doing the killing. He could easily come up with a rationale for that. Alric may or may not find out sure.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
He has no experience collecting clues in that manner. None. Why do you think he will be good at this? And what will he be able to do that Mathilde Weber, expert interrogator capable of changing her apperance and erasing people memories, can't?
Being likable is a skill that might be useful in a detective, it does not make someone a detective. It's like if we needed a hockey player and you recommended someone whose sole qualification is being fit. 'But is he a good hockey player? Does he even know how to play?' 'No, but physical fitness is a good foundation'. This makes no sense.

Lampshade said:
Mathilde is good at sneaking into places and interrogating confined people but Johann is the kind of guy I'd sit down for a beer with.

As for being easily found, 50k+ is enough to get lost in the crowd. Even if he's discovered, Johann has a plausible excuse of simply being attracted to a big event, whereas Egrimm being found looking into what Alric is doing, even if he's less likely to be discovered, has a completely different context.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Johann literally works for Mathilde, this isn't a secret or anything. Attracted to a big event? Do you think Alric is going to buy that Johann was just curious so he left his job in Laurelorn, the one he's doing for Mathilde, to come over and see what's up, and this has nothing to do with Mathilde? Are you serious?
Also, I can't say this enough times - the golden man with the molten eyes does not 'get lost in the crowd'. No one who is later asked who they talked to is going to say 'just some guy, nothing recognizable about him'.
 
Last edited:
DragonParadox said:
Er... why? Seriously do you trust this man or not? Because if you cannot even ask the question in the privacy of Laurelorn as a hypothetical I am not sure what he is doing here... well other than bitching about said boss 24/7. That might be a clue as to the answer.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That complaining* is related to the problem. Alric's been been a millstone around Egrimm's neck for most of his career. It's a really difficult ask for anyone to remain impartial and restrained in that kind of situation. That whole dynamic seems like the kind of complicating factor you'd want to avoid introducing unless you were sure it wouldn't come back to bite you.

* I'm not sure Egrimm complains that much about Alric?
 
Johann is capable of many things; relying on being "the sort of guy you'd have a beer with" to convince a magic-phobic population to talk to him with an extremely obvious arcane mark isn't going to be one of them, because that's a hefty malus.

I remain baffled by all the plans wanting to use Max to investigate random artefacts we've had laying around instead of attending the Rituals class with him. Two updates ago people were literally arguing that an understanding of Rituals is so vital to the project we ought to hire the ritualists over the keepers of secret lore!
 
Last edited:
The more I look at the Stacking Advantages plan idea to just get to know the Frost Ward while also statring to lay the foundations, the worse an idea it seems

Mathilde: Hey Cadeath, how are things going over here, mind showing me around?
Cadaeth: Sure, let me introduce you to some people
....
Mathilde: Well thanks for the tour, be seeing you.
Cadaeth: Not a problem, say about when do you expect to start up the project?
Mathilde: Oh, I've been working on that for the past few months, making great progress.
Cadaeth: I see... I suppose our invitation got lost in the mail...?

Lampshade said:
The fact that there are so many issues to discuss and that it's such a controversial topic are indicators in and of themselves. There are just too many things that could go wrong, up to a fringe chance that he's not a cultist yet and a critical failure here pushes him over the edge. Why risk that?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Why did we hire him then, since he could be a cultist afterall? Sorry I don't find that reasoning particularly compelling. You weigh the balance of evidence to decide risk rewards factors. And the balance of evidence from Egrimm in the various scenes he's been in is pretty clear, he has no issue informing on Alric's movements to us, he's done it, he has no issue wishing and hoping for Alric's failure, he's done it, he has no issue hoping for Mira's success, he's done it. At some point you just have to look at what's been shown and accept it for what it is. Rather than hedging against remote longshots, or else you're not going to get much done. So I find the risk to be negligible, while the reward is an incredible resource to plumb regarding Alric's history and thought processes.

mathymancer said:
"Creating a cover and inserting himself into a population"? He was a Gold wizard, openly declaring himself to be a Gold wizard, joining an expedition that included wizards. He was lying about his eventual goals and about his exact rank in the Colleges, that was the extent of his deception. How is this anywhere close to doing detective work?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Yes, he successfully lied to everyone and got them to respect and accept him (Rather impressive considering dwarves are not noted for being particularly quick to warm up to people) while maneuvering himself into a position he could pursue his actual goals. Exactly the kind of social engineering skills that would serve him well in chasing down leads.

Finding things out from people is not an incredibly niche skillset at the end of the day. The skills he has map well to it. You don't need some hyperspecialized skillset to get people to think you have a good reason for wanting to know something while also making them inclined to tell you that thing.
 
Last edited:
Horologer said:
That complaining* is related to the problem. Alric's been been a millstone around Egrimm's neck for most of his career. It's a really difficult ask for anyone to remain impartial and restrained in that kind of situation. That whole dynamic seems like the kind of complicating factor you'd want to avoid introducing unless you were sure it wouldn't come back to bite you.

* I'm not sure Egrimm complains that much about Alric?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

It was a part of most of his on screen interactions with Mathilde, I think it is fair to say the complaining is common. Also this is an investigation not Alric's sentencing, we do not have to pass judgement, we do not have to act. All we need is to know what he is doing. If this were sabotage I would abolutely be against bringing Egrimm in but it is not.

For an investigation having a man who knew the target that well is invaluable
 
Thomasfoolery said:
Yes, he successfully lied to everyone and got them to respect and accept him (Rather impressive considering dwarves are not noted for being particularly quick to warm up to people) while maneuvering himself into a position he could pursue his actual goals. Exactly the kind of social engineering skills that would serve him well in chasing down leads.

Finding things out from people is not an incredibly niche skillset at the end of the day. The skills he has map well to it. You don't need some hyperspecialized skillset to get people to think you have a good reason for wanting to know something while also making them inclined to tell you that thing.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
He got people to respect and accept him by being useful in the millitary expedition he joined. This has very little to do with 'social engineering skills' good enough to make someone trust you enough to share information with you over the course of a single conversation.
Who is he going to investigate, exactly? If it is just random bystanders, why can't Mathilde do it and why does the golden wizard with molten eyes look like a better choice for getting information out of the general population? If it is people somehow related to the thing that we are investigating, that have reasons to hide information, then questioning someone who has something to hide absolutely is a specialized skill, and one that Johann doesn't have (and Mathilde does).
IronFist said:
Also regarding Johann's recognizability: no one seems to be mentioning the elephant in the room, the prosthetic.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
You are absolutely right, I completely forgot. The literally golden man with the molten eyes and the golden claw lizard hand is sure going to have an easy time making people open up to him.
 
Last edited:
mathymancer said:
He got people to respect and accept him by being useful in the millitary expedition he joined. This has very little to do with 'social engineering skills' good enough to make someone trust you enough to share information with you over the course of a single conversation.
Who is he going to investigate, exactly? If it is just random baystanders, why can't Mathilde do it and why does the golden wizard with molten eyes look like a better choice for getting information out of the general population? If it is people somehow related to the thing that we are investigating, that have reasons to hide information, then questioning someone who has something to hide absolutely is a specialized skill, and one that Johann doesn't have (and Mathilde does).
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

It wouldn't be an either or, they would both obviously pursue different avenues as befit their own skillsets. That being said, since I'm not even voting for Johann to investigate this, i'll leave it there, rather than going further into pointless hypotheticals.
 
DragonParadox said:
I mean... you know we could just ask? @Boney what does Horstman think of helping to investigate his former boss?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Unknown, because this would be a really awkward quest if Mathilde jumped up and down on every potential conversational landmine on her own initiative.

DragonParadox said:
Er... why? Seriously do you trust this man or not? Because if you cannot even ask the question in the privacy of Laurelorn as a hypothetical I am not sure what he is doing here... well other than bitching about said boss 24/7. That might be a clue as to the answer.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I really don't understand the logic between this artificial dichotomy. Egrimm is capable of being useful even if he's not willing to pour out his heart at a moment's notice.


If you think that Egrimm's help is worth the potential risk of him not being fully comfortable with the situation, then vote for it. If you don't, don't. "Just ask" is not the one weird trick to have your cake and eat it too, it's a way to potentially not eat your cake and still have no cake, because then you run the risk of not having Egrimm's help and stomping on his sore spot.
 
Boney said:
I really don't understand the logic between this artificial dichotomy. Egrimm is capable of being useful even if he's not willing to pour out his heart at a moment's notice.


If you think that Egrimm's help is worth the potential risk of him not being fully comfortable with the situation, then vote for it. If you don't, don't. "Just ask" is not the one weird trick to have your cake and eat it too, it's a way to potentially not eat your cake and still have no cake, because then you run the risk of not having Egrimm's help and stomping on his sore spot.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Sorry if this came off glib but it seems to me that asking a question is less of a risk when it comes to sore spots like this than putting him in front of the fait accompli, 'we are going to Talbacland'. If asking risks the same sort of harm as an order in Mathilde's judgement than I am afraid to say that might itself be an answer, though not the one I would like.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top