Orc Quest; or, A Critical Examination of Agency Through in Interactive Fiction (Warcraft)

Welp, here's hoping that this is FelDad deepening ties with Varimathras for the Local team and not the Legion. And if not, hopefully he is getting a good price for it. It seems like dumping a Legion Loyalist quest item from a quick look at WoW head, so that seems promising. If Grok has impressed him enough to start hedging more towards the Horde then the Legion, divesting of those more shakey resources to build up potential allies or just get more trustworthy resources is always a good idea.

I do hope that this isnt payment for Varimathras conniving the Alchemical Wall though. Keeping the Morally Grey Undead out of the way of the Idealist Son seems like something Neeru might do, especially if he thinks it can get the Horde better allies in the region then the Forsaken. After all, if Vari does switch to the BB rather then the BL he doesnt need the Forsaken to be worthwhile. And locking up the potentially nutter undead in a dead city with the Mentally Unstable PTSD ridden Banshee Queen might not be the best for their long term mental health. Ah well, guess it remains to be seen!

I also enjoy how things are being left off with Solliden. Its not much, but they are a little better off for the BB having shown up. And now the Orcs too got a bit of a shindig out of it. Hopefully the mild sermonizing helps them out. Between that and the Pyremaster action, Grok is laying down the groundwork to be quite the leader in time. The Plaguelands should be a good rubber meets road moment too.

The various warband manuvers seems to prove that the BB will be able to win the Scarlets some breathing room if they need it, and help take out some particular troublesome points if not. Hopefully there will be things to loot there, though I will say trying to send trusted scouts down to the Blackrocks might be worth it. Spreading the word around of another Orcish location on better terms with folks might help some of the more infrastructure/metalworking inclined individuals leave whatever insanity is happening over there.
 
I thuoght the Cairn thing happened because the old tauren got poisoned due to Tauren Politics!...And then they sadly squander the oppertunity to ACTUALLY do Tauren Politics by killing off Grimtotem, because of course they do. BAH!
I think it stuck out because it was before he got the poison in him.

I was thinking of getting it back from Orgimmar or finding loot. An issue to explore later provided there's an opportunity to get funding.
I think Orgrimmar is probably non viable, and most loot needs to be readjusted for orcs who are big. Grok is the only one who can get by with human stuff.

I still advocate eventually marching south to give the black dragonflight better allies. And help fighting Old God corruption.
I assume you mean killing them then? Cause there's only two members of the black dragon flight left and one's not even been born yet, but we can sure fight old god corruption there.
 
I think it stuck out because it was before he got the poison in him.


I think Orgrimmar is probably non viable, and most loot needs to be readjusted for orcs who are big. Grok is the only one who can get by with human stuff.


I assume you mean killing them then? Cause there's only two members of the black dragon flight left and one's not even been born yet, but we can sure fight old god corruption there.
I mean redeeming them and helping them heal and regain their sanity.
 
I have an idea for the warband name. How about the Immortals as a Grimgor and Persian reference of powerful infantry?
 
I have an idea for the warband name. How about the Immortals as a Grimgor and Persian reference of powerful infantry?
I think we need to earn the name before we start giving them rather hubristic titles like that :p

If we do something crazy like come out the otherside of a massive battle with the undead with no casualties that's another matter.
 
When was that classified as impossible?
Currently by Fahrad in the near future by Wrathion, hence why he made sure to eliminate every single one of them save Ebonhorn the other sane one.

Even black dragons who think they're in control of themselves can have themselves over ridden seemingly very easily by the Old Gods such as Fahrad who thought he was in control, but when the Old Gods realised he was trying to eliminate the black dragons took control and made him try to kill Wrathion.

Even then common sense would hinge in that direction, as its been 10,000 years and black dragons who can manage even what he did are extraordinarily rare (in fact on Azeroth he is entirely unique), which makes sense since the Old Gods seemingly have a direct link into their brains and are proven to be incredibly effective at driving people insane.

There are two lines of inquiry we could investigate, the first is Sabellian Sabellian who despite being Deathwing's lieutenant seems to display few to no signs of madness, his anger at Grruul motivated by the deaths of his friends and the destruction of their eggs, and the black dragons on the Outlands seemingly being non-hostile he even considers Rexar a friend come the burning crusade even if he hasn't revealed he is a black dragon.

Thus its potential that distance from the Old Gods can cause their influence to fade and he and his kin are a very long way away. Furthermore Wrathion doesn't end up killing this Outlands branch in his campaign, and while its reported he doesn't know of them Wrathion's a very observant fellow and the official Alliance report on Sabellian knows he's a black dragon, but classifies him as a not threat and seemingly happy to remain in the outland and protecting the growing black dragon population.

Furthermore the black dragons change has been gradual, the Wyrmcult (a cult that worshiped the black dragons) is something Sabellian is undermining and trying to rescue the black dragons wyrms they've got. Presumably their needs no longer align with the rather destructive cult.

Its not definitive proof though, since black dragons can suppress the Old Gods to the point they are in control (theoretically) but as shown that can be overriden almost as fast.

The other is the Netherwing flight, who are weird. They range from being friendly and curious to extremely hostile, and while I assumed that it was fel magic that made them the way they are its likely much more complicated than that. Eitherway none have ever been shown falling to the Old Gods, although those that stayed in the Netherstorm long time started to succumb to a "corruption." However that might have been fel (exactly what mana the storm is is never revealed, but Kael's arcane forges can convert it into arcane magic). Nothing definitive there.

They seemingly can absorb a vast amount of magic at least.

Anyway something about their power was able to bring Malygos back to a semblance of sanity for a bit which would be a tick in the not corrupted camp, but it maybe more accurate to say it made him more active since he subsequently decided to declare war on all magic users, though whether that was the result of the old gods is unclear.

Either way they certainly don't join with the old Gods, but that maybe because the Netherwings serve as the inspiration for the twilight dragon flight who retain their incorporeality and have greater ability to absorb magic, while being entirely loyal to the Old Gods.

Its possible that the Netherwing are touched by shadow magic, since their incorporeality kinda looks like stuff it would do.

Eitherway neither options are viable for us to investigate, we lack both a draenor and a literal apocalypses worth of random magics to irridate dagon eggs with.

If we do end up encountering black dragons though I am going to advocate for saving their eggs if we can, and if we manage to kill the Old Gods then they should be fine, as Wrathion manages to save a large clutch of eggs that were being incubated within the caprapace of N'zoth itself. So there's hope, but our means of helping the black dragons conventionally are very limited to non existant.
 
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Currently by Fahrad in the near future by Wrathion, hence why he made sure to eliminate every single one of them save Ebonhorn the other sane one.

Even black dragons who think they're in control of themselves can have themselves over ridden seemingly very easily by the Old Gods such as Fahrad who thought he was in control, but when the Old Gods realised he was trying to eliminate the black dragons took control and made him try to kill Wrathion.

Even then common sense would hinge in that direction, as its been 10,000 years and black dragons who can manage even what he did are extraordinarily rare (in fact on Azeroth he is entirely unique), which makes sense since the Old Gods seemingly have a direct link into their brains and are proven to be incredibly effective at driving people insane.

There are two lines of inquiry we could investigate, the first is Sabellian Sabellian who despite being Deathwing's lieutenant seems to display few to no signs of madness, his anger at Grruul motivated by the deaths of his friends and the destruction of their eggs, and the black dragons on the Outlands seemingly being non-hostile he even considers Rexar a friend come the burning crusade even if he hasn't revealed he is a black dragon.

Thus its potential that distance from the Old Gods can cause their influence to fade and he and his kin are a very long way away. Furthermore Wrathion doesn't end up killing this Outlands branch in his campaign, and while its reported he doesn't know of them Wrathion's a very observant fellow and the official Alliance report on Sabellian knows he's a black dragon, but classifies him as a not threat and seemingly happy to remain in the outland and protecting the growing black dragon population.

Furthermore the black dragons change has been gradual, the Wyrmcult (a cult that worshiped the black dragons) is something Sabellian is undermining and trying to rescue the black dragons wyrms they've got. Presumably their needs no longer align with the rather destructive cult.

Its not definitive proof though, since black dragons can suppress the Old Gods to the point they are in control (theoretically) but as shown that can be overriden almost as fast.

The other is the Netherwing flight, who are weird. They range from being friendly and curious to extremely hostile, and while I assumed that it was fel magic that made them the way they are its likely much more complicated than that. Eitherway none have ever been shown falling to the Old Gods, although those that stayed in the Netherstorm long time started to succumb to a "corruption." However that might have been fel (exactly what mana the storm is is never revealed, but Kael's arcane forges can convert it into arcane magic). Nothing definitive there.

They seemingly can absorb a vast amount of magic at least.

Anyway something about their power was able to bring Malygos back to a semblance of sanity for a bit which would be a tick in the not corrupted camp, but it maybe more accurate to say it made him more active since he subsequently decided to declare war on all magic users, though whether that was the result of the old gods is unclear.

Either way they certainly don't join with the old Gods, but that maybe because the Netherwings serve as the inspiration for the twilight dragon flight who retain their incorporeality and have greater ability to absorb magic, while being entirely loyal to the Old Gods.

Its possible that the Netherwing are touched by shadow magic, since their incorporeality kinda looks like stuff it would do.

Eitherway neither options are viable for us to investigate, we lack both a draenor and a literal apocalypses worth of random magics to irridate dagon eggs with.

If we do end up encountering black dragons though I am going to advocate for saving their eggs if we can, and if we manage to kill the Old Gods then they should be fine, as Wrathion manages to save a large clutch of eggs that were being incubated within the caprapace of N'zoth itself. So there's hope, but our means of helping the black dragons conventionally are very limited to non existant.
Sounds fun bathing dragon eggs with various energies but Grok isn't a mad mage scientist or Medivh.
 
Sounds fun bathing dragon eggs with various energies but Grok isn't a mad mage scientist or Medivh.

No but we can provide safety and resources to one over time to try things out! During the recent chat with the Shadowmagic orc, it was pointed out that FelDad has been good at keeping his loyalty by helping him research magic.

Obviously as the boss, there would need to be alot of safety features Grok would need to oversee. Plus check ins. Lots of those. But magical research/poking shiney things could probably happen with a bit of set up.

Second the warnings about the Blackdragons / Void corruption. All down to try and save them, but should probably make sure we have some people who have shown resistance to the Nilism of Shadow. Good thing there is going to be alot of that in the Plaguelands. Might be a good time to experiment with outsourcing research actions there.
 
Obviously as the boss, there would need to be alot of safety features Grok would need to oversee. Plus check ins. Lots of those. But magical research/poking shiney things could probably happen with a bit of set up.

Second the warnings about the Blackdragons / Void corruption. All down to try and save them, but should probably make sure we have some people who have shown resistance to the Nilism of Shadow. Good thing there is going to be alot of that in the Plaguelands. Might be a good time to experiment with outsourcing research actions there.
I think while a great thing to aspire towards, it is aspiration only at this moment in time and we have to remember that.

My view is that when Grok has even a decent chance of surviving an angry dragon then we can start considering how we can try to poke and prod the most evil dragons in the setting sound fair?
 
I think while a great thing to aspire towards, it is aspiration only at this moment in time and we have to remember that.

My view is that when Grok has even a decent chance of surviving an angry dragon then we can start considering how we can try to poke and prod the most evil dragons in the setting sound fair?

Tis indeed aspirational. There are no dragons about, and none in the near future. But it would be remiss of me to not lobby for the expansion of the Burning Blade magical staff on the off chance there will be a chance at one in the future.

Personally I think the most likely first step in that path would be looking deeper into the Light/Shadow interplay. Between the Pyremaster and Paladin actions, Grok seems to be starting to find a connection to the Light. Plus there will be alot of mindless undead to see how various magics work in the near future.

Either unraveling the binding/animating magics, learning how they work, or finding other magical interactions. The Necrolyte seems like a decently curious sort/not overly sketchy given his background. With luck/planning, the BB can benefit from those advances while also being hopefully checked corruption-wise by the influence of the Light from working with the Scarlets.

Obviously aspirational, but one does not get anywhere if they dont start walking/tackling smaller projects.
 
I assume you mean killing them then? Cause there's only two members of the black dragon flight left and one's not even been born yet, but we can sure fight old god corruption there.
Pretty sure that has been classed as entirely impossible.
Currently by Fahrad in the near future by Wrathion, hence why he made sure to eliminate every single one of them save Ebonhorn the other sane one.
I'm sure I've mentioned this previously at some point, but I'll note a two main points again. Firstly, this is Agency Quest. I'm giving the characters agency rather than each black dragon just having a button the old gods can press to make them go mad. Onyxia has her own plans, various others do as well, it's not like they're all a hive mind. Secondly, there's plenty of black dragons which seem pretty normal, if dragony. There are plenty of members of the black dragonflight left, fewer are as old or powerful as ony and nef but they're still about, or example, Kalaran who contracts the player to kill dwarves, rewards them, and then flies off. If the blacks were all corrupted completely then he wouldn't have been combatting the dark irons, who of course are also old god aligned.
Plus check ins. Lots of those.
I find this highly amusing given you had plenty of chances to stop doing Dark Shamanism but still did, even when two separate people warned you against it.

In my other quest the questers tried to discover magic on their own and stuff and ended up horribly mutated because warhammer Dhar is bad.

There is in fact another thing being set up currently which may or may not be revealed in a while in a similar manner as Dark Shamanism was.

Incidentally, if anyone thinks they have a guess what it is, please don't say it in thread, send me a PM as I don't want it spoiled.
 
I'm sure I've mentioned this previously at some point, but I'll note a two main points again. Firstly, this is Agency Quest. I'm giving the characters agency rather than each black dragon just having a button the old gods can press to make them go mad. Onyxia has her own plans, various others do as well, it's not like they're all a hive mind. Secondly, there's plenty of black dragons which seem pretty normal, if dragony. There are plenty of members of the black dragonflight left, fewer are as old or powerful as ony and nef but they're still about, or example, Kalaran who contracts the player to kill dwarves, rewards them, and then flies off. If the blacks were all corrupted completely then he wouldn't have been combatting the dark irons, who of course are also old god aligned.
No this really isn't true.

Just as an example, you use Kalaran, who was recalled by the Black Dragon flight as they scoured Azeroth for Wrathion's egg, that's when he dies, I can't imagine he'd be working with Onyxia's sister, who has been laying old god tainted eggs for her entire life and produced the egg that was purified to make Wrathion if he was not also corrupted since the black dragon flight make it a point to kill any of their kin who are not tainted by the Old Gods its one of the two reasons that Ebonhorn's been stuck for 10,000 years, if he leaves the high mountains they can instantly start corrupting him and also every black dragon within a thousand mile radius starts homing in on him.

Like yes they have agency, but its agency that I'd synonymise best with indoctrination a la reapers, they ultimately serve the end goals of the Old Gods, but they still kill each other constantly if for no other reason than to be the foremost servants, hell they made the elemental lords fight for their amusement during their war against the pantheon, arguing that its proof some are not old god corrupted when it is constantly shown as built into their DNA just is not correct.

This is not incompatible with the characters having agency, Onyxia and Nefarion are still doing what they want to do, its just they're going about it in a way that ultimately furthers the end goals of the Old Gods.

Incidentally, if anyone thinks they have a guess what it is, please don't say it in thread, send me a PM as I don't want it spoiled.
No I can't. I mean I can give random guesses, but unlike dark shamanism which is a case of what the hell were people thinking, we've not really done enough of anything. I'm assuming Grok is fucking up again though.
 
I'm assuming Grok is fucking up again though.
Not necessarily, or at least not yet, as you say you've not done much. That doesn't mean things aren't going on around you though.
No this really isn't true.
So I think when I referred to this previously I was noting that we don't really know the specifics of how corruption works. I really dislike the 'character goes mad and turns into an enemy' thing that WoW frequently employs. I agree entirely that that is indeed a thing Kalaran did, but I disagree about various other points. Essentially my question is, 'to what extent are the actions of black dragons motivated by old god stuff, and to what extend are they comparably motivated by various other factors'. Kalaran wants to kill dwarves presumably because he doesn't like them and is vengeful because the dark irons have killed dragons. That's a pretty relatable motivation.

We have: "My father was slain by the filth that inhabits the cauldron. My pleas for assistance to the Stormwind magistrate fell on deaf ears. Nay, they want not to admit that this part of the world even exists, let alone send their precious military in to administer justice. I seek vengeance, <race>, plain and simple. Is there a more passionate cause in this world?"

Excluding the stuff about the magistrate, Kalaran is seeking vengeance for his family. Comparably, on the specific point around Wrathion's creation. We have "My kin won't forget what you've done! We will rage, mortals!" from his mother. Now yes, perhaps the blacks like Kalaran are motivated by the old god switch in their brains. Perhaps they're just following orders from their bosses (who may or may not be more corrupted), but perhaps they're just as offended as Nyxondra was that the reds raped her and then stole her children?

In fact, reading it a lot of that quest is pretty dark: "Remember, <name>... this is for the good of the black dragonflight. We are here to redeem them, not to hurt them. This is but a step in their recovery.... You will need to beat Nyxondra into submission before you can take [the eggs]."

As I said I don't really like the 'goes mad because corruption' plot types. I think they're pretty unnecessary a lot of the time. I don't disagree with what you're saying, yes there's plenty of evidence that the blacks in particular are corrupted, and sure, maybe if they want the Old Gods can use their connection to the earth to focus a telepathic attack or whatever and make them do stuff. Equally though there's evidence for other motivations and I'm planning to use that evidence to have more ambiguity than just 'all blacks are evil, kill them all'.
 
Its much less insidious if the old gods have an Easy Button in black dragon brains that they can push to make you do things you wouldn't normally do.

Its far more insidious if they worm their way into your head and try to insert thoughts and make you act on those thoughts. To the point where you struggle to separate your own thoughts from theirs. But that's an incredibly long term thing, and with effort and therapy and understanding you can fight it off and help them learn to ground their identities.

But they are in too deep. Its possible for them to do it themselves but it would be far easier if they had a friend they could trust to have their own interests at heart. A friend who could help them remain grounded and pull them back when they start to slip. The problem is that the Black dragons have allies and acquaintances. But not so many actual friends they can turn to when they have doubts or concerns.
 
@FractiousDay

I can only assume that the general foreboding statements mean that unlike Martial things, Magic is one where you would prefer Grok do training rather then actually experiment with his powers via doing.

I also only have wild guesses to something that could be unveiled, but my best guess lies in the end of one of last turns actions.
 
Not necessarily, or at least not yet, as you say you've not done much. That doesn't mean things aren't going on around you though.
We've also not met a lot of people, and I am not telepathic.

So I think when I referred to this previously I was noting that we don't really know the specifics of how corruption works. I really dislike the 'character goes mad and turns into an enemy' thing that WoW frequently employs. I agree entirely that that is indeed a thing Kalaran did, but I disagree about various other points. Essentially my question is, 'to what extent are the actions of black dragons motivated by old god stuff, and to what extend are they comparably motivated by various other factors'. Kalaran wants to kill dwarves presumably because he doesn't like them and is vengeful because the dark irons have killed dragons. That's a pretty relatable motivation.

We have: "My father was slain by the filth that inhabits the cauldron. My pleas for assistance to the Stormwind magistrate fell on deaf ears. Nay, they want not to admit that this part of the world even exists, let alone send their precious military in to administer justice. I seek vengeance, <race>, plain and simple. Is there a more passionate cause in this world?"

Excluding the stuff about the magistrate, Kalaran is seeking vengeance for his family. Comparably, on the specific point around Wrathion's creation. We have "My kin won't forget what you've done! We will rage, mortals!" from his mother. Now yes, perhaps the blacks like Kalaran are motivated by the old god switch in their brains. Perhaps they're just following orders from their bosses (who may or may not be more corrupted), but perhaps they're just as offended as Nyxondra was that the reds raped her and then stole her children?

In fact, reading it a lot of that quest is pretty dark: "Remember, <name>... this is for the good of the black dragonflight. We are here to redeem them, not to hurt them. This is but a step in their recovery.... You will need to beat Nyxondra into submission before you can take [the eggs]."

As I said I don't really like the 'goes mad because corruption' plot types. I think they're pretty unnecessary a lot of the time. I don't disagree with what you're saying, yes there's plenty of evidence that the blacks in particular are corrupted, and sure, maybe if they want the Old Gods can use their connection to the earth to focus a telepathic attack or whatever and make them do stuff. Equally though there's evidence for other motivations and I'm planning to use that evidence to have more ambiguity than just 'all blacks are evil, kill them all'.
And?

This is not incompatible with the characters having agency, Onyxia and Nefarion are still doing what they want to do, its just they're going about it in a way that ultimately furthers the end goals of the Old Gods.

It kinda feels like you just ignored me here I was arguing that they can have other motivations, but those motivations also align with the Old God's end goals, wanting to kill people for killing your family or get vengeance for Nyxondra certainly does not go counter to the Cuthulu esque mind rapers's wishes.

My point is that fundamentally there's nothing we can do to get them to not be working against us in the end. They're not automatons no, they have their own wishes and motivations but they're also subverted agents and there's not a lot we can do to change that.

And I disagree this is one of the few places where WoW actually does have mind control going on, because usually its "people make choices for incredibly stupid reasons that end up turning them evil." See Garrosh, Sylvanus, Arthas, Azshara more and more and more. There's moral ambiguity to be had, but fundamentally you can't change what they've been forced into becoming, which few to none of them fight against.

WoW does not use mind control very often, the only other major examples I can think of is Medivh and Garona.

And yes the entire quest line is incredibly dark, a lot of stuff involving WoW's dragons is really, and the black dragon flight is amongst the worst see all the incest.

Its much less insidious if the old gods have an Easy Button in black dragon brains that they can push to make you do things you wouldn't normally do.

Its far more insidious if they worm their way into your head and try to insert thoughts and make you act on those thoughts. To the point where you struggle to separate your own thoughts from theirs. But that's an incredibly long term thing, and with effort and therapy and understanding you can fight it off and help them learn to ground their identities.

But they are in too deep. Its possible for them to do it themselves but it would be far easier if they had a friend they could trust to have their own interests at heart. A friend who could help them remain grounded and pull them back when they start to slip. The problem is that the Black dragons have allies and acquaintances. But not so many actual friends they can turn to when they have doubts or concerns.
They also have lots of incest. :p

Thing is I'd agree if there was literally a scrap of evidence for it.

Most of the time it is what you say it is, its described as their "whispers" but there's no therapy for it, since its not your own brain its an active hostile influence backed by a vast amount of magical ****.

There's a reason I made the comparison to the reapers, whose indoctrination is also described as whispering, also makes you do their bidding as if it was your own thoughts, can also be cranked up at the cost of lobotomising the person in the process and is also entirely incurable, with only a few people able to resist it long enough to blow their brains out.

The difference of course is indoctrination doesn't seem to spread genetically.
 
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And your arguing with the GM about how the world works in their own quest? Thats like arguing with the sun about how it rises in the morning and sets in the evening.

As for the response to my post...

Its basically artificial intrusive thoughts. Helping them recognize the intrusive thoughts for what they are allows them to exercise agency, such as choosing not to act on them. I also view it a lot like a mental disorder, like having your self esteem eaten away at by voices constantly putting you down over and over. There might be ways to help block that out, or identify it for what it is, old gods, not yourself.

No people is beyond salvation.
 
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Lordaeron Turn 4
Lordaeron Turn 4

You smell the Scarlet encampment before you see it.

It's the smell of civilisation. Fire and leather, soap, tallow, animals and other things.

Then there's fires and hammers and boots. The fires are the first thing and you see plumes of smoke in the air as you approach, but soon enough you also hear the hammers and marching feet of an army.

"This reminds me of home." grins Sorek, walking beside you.

You know what he means.

Excepting that the warriors all around you are dressed differently, and occupying a different environment, the feel of the place is identical as the Valley of Honour.

Instead of Blackrock smiths there are human ones, men from Gilenas, Hillsbarad, Stromgarde, Lordaeron, even some from Kul Tiras with anchor badges. Instead of duelling aspirants under blademasters instead you see companies of warriors drilling under the direction of stern paladins.

Even more than this there are dwarves and elves, gnomes and even a few Forsaken, the undead wearing elaborate silver chains and white robes as they pass between the living. Beasts wander about, here a tattooed dwarf leading a mighty gryphon, there a company of knights passing on fine horses.

"So many, and of so many peoples!" you exclaim, having seen nothing like it, even in the most cosmopolitan districts of Orgrimmar.

"The Light is the bond between all things. Everything that is, everything that will be." Mirador says, leading his old horse as he walks beside you. "And in the Light we are one."

And you see that it is so.

All around you these diverse people from all nations have come together. While your own people were a united folk for the most part, here you saw an army of faith, and where faith dwelt, hope shone eternal.

Mirador is clearly known there, and your suspicions regarding his true identity are largely ignored when one paladin calls out 'Lord Tirion!' in greeting and salute.

Tirion Fordring.

You know the name, as do many in your warband.

For one thing, as before the names of famous human warriors are known among the orcs, and Tirion Fording had been a feared combatant and general in the First and Second Wars.

However he draws greater favour from your people for his fame as a friend to orcs. Fordring had protected Eitrigg, a well-respected Blackrock orc, now one of Thrall's advisors, from other humans and subsequently been exiled for it. Indeed, the story of Fordring had frequently been used by Thrall with other stories such as that of Jaina Proudmoore as example of honourable humans, stories to show the possibility of cooperation between the Alliance and Horde.

Fordring leads you into the camp and is admitted through each checkpoint without delay. The army is clearly strong and well organised, and you see tradespeople as well as warriors, with Sorek being particularly interested in a sort of wheeled forge the humans seem to have, perhaps for equipment maintenance on the move?

You leave the warband in the camp as Fordring escorts you toward a cluster of larger tents. You barely spare a thought about the safety of your warriors among so many potential enemies, simply because of the manner in which you've been received. While there's the occasional dark look, the Crusaders seem overwhelmingly interested rather than hostile, and you see a few curious points and murmured words.

You go to the largest tent, a magnificent red structure with a dozen banners of various styles set around it on staves. You recognise several, from the phoenix of the Quel'dorei to the eagle of Alterac.

"These are the colours of the dead." Fordring remarks with a gesture, "In this way we remember them, and look to the day when they'll fly strong once again."

"A worthy memorial." you reply diplomatically.

Fordring makes no further statement, and again is permitted entry into the tent without delay. You follow, finding yourself in an opulent, but martial setting, for while the structure is temporary the place is just as grand as the Warchief's throne room in Orgrimmar.

On one wall there are a dozen maps and you make out the details of some, scribbles and ribbons affixed to various locations. On the other wall there are stands of weapons and armour, each of exceptional quality and richness. And on the last wall you see a few personal items, an old bow, a painting of a grey-bearded man, a fine robe, and other things. But before it is your host, and you find Saiden Dathrohan sitting behind a light table piled with various papers.

Dathrohan is known to you as well, though for his victories against the Armani trolls rather than against the Horde.

"Brother." Dathrohan greets Fordring, and he rises, embracing the other paladin, who nods back.

"And Grok'mash of the Burning Blade." he raising his eyes to you once he's returned to his seat, switching into the Orcish tongue just as easily as Fordring had. Did all the paladins learn the language or was he using whatever power the Light granted such channelers?

Even sitting down the man seems to exude a sense of power, and like Fordring his eyes seem to shine unnaturally. While Fordring has a certain intensity, his power narrowly focused to the subject of his attention, Dathrohan seems to simply embody something greater, as if there's something more within him.

"I am." you reply simply.

"You have come to join our war."

"I have."

Dathrohan smiles. The expression isn't unpleasant, not necessarily, but again you sense something else behind the gesture. "We accept all who would stand with us, regardless of origin." he says, "And we welcome the hand the Horde extends in this matter, despite the past differences between our people."

The remark makes you slightly uncomfortable. It would be better, more convenient, if you were able to ignore the statement, but your honour demands you answer, "It is not the Horde that sends me." you say, "I came on my own initiative, and I was supported by my father, Neeru, chief of the Burning Blade."

And under the Grand Crusader's inquisition you tell your story, prompted along by subtle questions and piercing insight.

"I see." he finally says after you've told the tale of Forneus' march and the events after, "My brothers will be interested to hear it."

Did he have family? You look at Tirion standing to the side, no, no doubt he meant 'Brothers in the Light' or some similar turn of phrase. Even if there were no affection between the two men, such associations could only be good for the morale of the Crusade. After all, every person in the camp must have known someone who was lost to the Scourge, for Dathrohan to have established such a policy of a larger family was a shrewd one, and you thought perhaps one you might adopt to bring the newer clansfolk in your warband closer to you…

"My warriors are strong." you say next, "I've directed my band as seemed best to me, but this is your war, where are we needed? What evils of the Legion are there to be slain?"

"The Legion?" Fordring breaks in and you see confusion evident on his face. "The Burning Legion? There are no here, the Light would expose any such creature!"

You do not refer to Varimathras' presence not more than ten miles to the south, "The Scourge are the agents of the Burning Legion." you say, "That is who we've come to fight, the Legion enslaved my people and we know they work through many dark servants like the Scourge."

"Ah." Dathrohan exclaims. "Yes, it's true that once the demons controlled the activities of the Scourge, but they were a poor tool, as disobedient as the orcs once were."

So it seemed he knew your people as well as Fordring did.

"And like the orcs the Scourge slipped the Legion's leash, shortly after the glorious victory at Hyjal the masters of the Scourge rebelled and struck out on their own. I know of no connection between them now. Does this change your intentions?"

You think for a moment, but shake your head quickly, "No." you reply, "It is thought among my people that the Scourge remain a weapon of the Burning Legion. That they are a separate evil is meaningless, it is still a darkness to be banished. Besides, even learning that that weapon has been discarded doesn't ease my fear that it'll be taken up again. Would the Legion not seek to reassert control? They did to my own people, they tried at least…"

Dathrohan looks at you. "There may be much you do not know regarding these matters, and no doubt the departure of your people before the war against the Scourge means you're lacking in particular information if you don't know the place of Ner'zhul in all this."

"Ner'zhul!" you exclaim, taken aback, how did he fit into all this? As far as you know he'd been destroyed by his own magics and cast into the Twisting Nether twenty years ago or more.

Dathrohan nods, "I have little time to speak of history now. Suffice to say, there are more enemies than you might expect, and in more places than you might guess."

"But with faith in the Light, the Legion too will fall." Tirion says, voice stern and unyielding.

"Yes that is certainly so." Dathrohan replies lightly and with rather less zeal than the other paladin, "And let us pray that day comes swiftly. But to return to your previous question, that depends on your position. The orcs are a proud people and I don't expect you to take up our sigils despite the good omens of your clan's banner."

Indeed, you'd noticed the similarity as well and considered it fortunate. Fordring had told you somewhat of the Ashbringer, a magnificent sword once wielded by Alexandros Mograine, the once commander of the Crusade. That your banner was a similarly burning blade was a fine coincidence.

"I cannot accept such direct authority." you reply, "But nevertheless this is your kingdom."

"I understand." Dathrohan says, "We have many who've not joined our crusade, from the remnants of other kingdoms to mercenaries looking for pay. In any case, I gladly accept you as an ally, and I'll have this proclaimed to the camp. In the meantime I'll assign an equerry to brief you on the areas your warriors could make the greatest effect."

"Darion." Fordring says.

You assume it's a name rather than a word which you simply don't know, but Dathrohan switches into the human tongue to address his peer, "Very well, speak with Fairbanks, he's come to me twice regarding Renault, I won't tolerate a third."

Fordring winces but nods.

After a few more pleasantries you're dismissed and find yourself thinking that the meeting could have hardly gone any better! The leader of the crusade welcomed you and promised several things, and you stand outside the tent feeling optimistic yet eager for the road ahead.

You look up at the banners, noting that the 'L' of Lordaeron is missing from those of the fallen, perhaps given its good representation in red and blue among the soldiery, it brings a question to mind, "Where is the Scarlet Princess?"

"Safe, and secret." Fordring replies, or rather he does not, for his response is hardly informative, "Actually that brings something to mind, some advice if you'll hear it?"

"Of course, I'd be glad to." not only are you being courteous but you genuinely respect the man, he has a strength of character and a certain grace you've rarely seen.

"Many remember the orcs as invaders and conquerors." the paladin tells you, "I realise you've come here to fight, but I don't doubt you've also come here to build relations between our people. I know you fight for something greater than nation or people, and the Scourge threaten this world just as much as the Burning Legion do, but you must know others don't share that belief."

"I'm aware." you reply.

"Consider this your opportunity to make new impressions. For the people of Lordaeron, and many other nations, to reacquaint themselves with the honour and culture I know to be present in the orcs. For example, Lady Prestor and Lord Bolvar are due to arrive shortly as emissaries from Stormwind. That city was destroyed utterly in the wars, but perhaps you can show your worth to them now."

Those are names you don't recognise, but you thank the paladin for his advice. "I know my people have committed many wrongs." you reply, "If I can begin to right them in this war I will."

"Then Light be with you."

"And the Spirits with you."

You can do write ins for any category. You can also vote for actions individually rather than in plans, or you can vote in plans if you want. The normal policies apply including plans without reasoning being ignored. I've shuffled the geography of Tirasfal a bit but most stuff still applies. Ask me if unsure.

If there's an action which notes some unspecific element, this is where you're meant to indicate a preference or reasoning.

Choose 7 actions. At least 2 action have to be from your Warband, but you can take additional time to take more Warband actions if you decide to.

The Warband

These actions relate to the activities of your warband.

[ ] Agamand Mills
Though the west of Tirasfal is safer due to your actions than it might be, there's a large area of hill and plain to the north of the Soliden Farmstead. The Agamand Mills could be rapidly put into cultivation again but they'd have to be cleared of undead first. While the Mills aren't a true bastion of the Scourge, they are at least active there, and the undead in that area are directed rather than mindless.

[ ] Fields of Tears
From Dathrohan's words you know the Crusade will be expanding into the Plaugelands, a vast province which used to compost most of Lordaeron's kingdom. Currently the Crusade only control small pockets of land and rely on networks of couriers and caravans for communication and supply. Apparently the area just north of Anderhol is known to be particularly dangerous, full of farms and plague caldrons which corrupt the land. You cannot allow this.

[ ] Silverpine Forest
The woods to the south by comparison seem less malevolent than those here in Tirasfel Glades, journey there instead, perhaps survivors remain?

[ ] Training the Warband
There are a number of different competencies among your warriors, see if you might spread these among the others to increase the general level of skill of your band. Indicate if you want to train particular people or particular skills. This can include specialist training that might be offered.

[ ] Requisition
While you can train your warriors in particular things you already know, there are some things you have to get from elsewhere. Requisition supplies or personnel from the Crusade. The success of such requests will depend on your value to the Crusade. Write in what you want. This action represents the request and some basic integration into your force.

[ ] The North Coast
The Crusade receive extensive supplies from Kul Tiras, yet the supplies are frequently delayed by storms around the coast. Dathrohan has suggested clearing the north coast of Tirasfal to open another line of supply. Go there and kill anything that's not human and alive.

Lordaeron
These actions relate to specific areas around your current location.

[ ] Brill
The Scarlet Crusade surround the town of Brill, laying siege. It's only through the intercession of Inquisitor Fairbanks, the so called 'Apostle to the Forsaken', that the Crusade hasn't attacked. You've yet to meet this man but perhaps you should. Perhaps you can even help the situation somehow?

[ ] Strange Lights
There were reports from a few warriors of strange lights seen in the sky over Lake Lordemere. You don't know what this might be, but perhaps you should journey there and see what may be seen.

[ ] The Scarlet Monastery
One of the earliest bastions of the Scarlet Crusade, the great fortified cloister to the north has stood for years as a light in the darkness. Supposedly there's a large library there, perhaps you could learn more of the Crusade's history there.

[ ] Posture
Hold a conference of your officers to discuss your strategic posture over the next few months, or even years. You seek the knowledge of your peers and any suggestions they might have.

[ ] Diplomacy
Apparently a significant delegation of Kul Tirans and other notaries of the Alliance from the southern regions such as Stormwind is due to arrive soon, go and meet them. This is perhaps the best opportunity you have to make a good first impression.

Training
It's important for a warrior to keep themselves well trained at all times.

[ ] The Blade Reborn
Request a program of calisthenics from Sesk and Ishi. 2 actions due to intensity of workouts.

[ ] Tactics
You're good with a sword but you know there's more to victory than the ability to swing a weapon.

[ ] Stealth
The Shattered Hand are known to be a dishonourable lot, striking from the shadows and using poison and though you don't intend to adopt their methods you might at least learn them.

[ ] Scholarship
Make use of what resources you can to learn, particularly the papers you took from the Kul Tirans, as well as anything you can find around the camp.

[ ] Shadow Magic
While you don't expect to learn the necrolyte's arts immediately, you decide to speak to Keldran to understand more of what his magic actually is.

[ ] The Light
Consult Fordring regarding the Light. You currently perceive it as another of the Elements, just as you've essentially decided that Fordring is a shaman, but is this true?

[ ] Slayer
You know something of the undead and their different forms, but you could do with learning more. You've heard tell of one among the Crusade called Vishas, a man who apparently knows a great deal about the undead.

[ ] Arcane
The Darkspear had mages, but the traditions of Dalaran are far more advanced and better codified. Seek out a teacher among the mages of the Crusade.

Personal actions
These actions relate to activities you take for your own benefit, or to improve yourself.

[ ] Meditation
Sit in contemplation.

[ ] Speak with someone
While you speak with various people frequently, your conversations are often on practical subjects rather than a more social talk, take the time to talk to someone in more depth. Write in the person and any particular subjects you want to cover.

[ ] Many Blades
There's some tension between Sorek and the aspirants and the blademasters. You're not sure what but it would be best solved now rather that allowed to fester.
 
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, as if there's something more within him.
but again you sense something else behind the gesture

Oh you sunnova :p

BALNZAR IF YOU'RE IN THERE I'M GOING TO REACH DOWN UP THAT CORPSES'S ARSE YOU'RE PILOTING AND NUT PUNCH YA!

even a few Forsaken,
Well that's good.

Thrall with other stories such as that of Jaina Proudmoore as example of honourable humans, stories to show the possibility of cooperation between the Alliance and Horde.
Surprised his sister does not feature.

"Ah." Dathrohan exclaims. "Yes, it's true that once the demons controlled the activities of the Scourge, but they were a poor tool, as disobedient as the orcs once were."
DAMN YOU AND YOUR SUSPICIOUS DIALOGUE!

"Darion." Fordring says.
Ohhh that'll be...

Yikes.

And oh ballz what did the elder do.

For example, Lady Prestor and Lord Bolvar are due to arrive shortly as emissaries from Stormwind. That city was destroyed utterly in the wars, but perhaps you can show your worth to them now."
Ohhh fuck.

And your arguing with the GM about how the world works in their own quest? Thats like arguing with the sun about how it rises in the morning and sets in the evening.

As for the response to my post...

Its basically artificial intrusive thoughts. Helping them recognize the intrusive thoughts for what they are allows them to exercise agency, such as choosing not to act on them. I also view it a lot like a mental disorder, like having your self esteem eaten away at by voices constantly putting you down over and over. There might be ways to help block that out, or identify it for what it is, old gods, not yourself.

No people is beyond salvation.
I am stubborn enough (and at times dumb enough) to do just that. I can argue like a sophist when motivated :p

Seriously though if I am told to stuff it I will, but I do think that one should be allowed to voice their opinions on the GM's designs and intents, to offer an alternative if nothing else.

And artificial it maybe, but its not that simple to deal with.

And I agree and we can even point to potential things we can do to help them. However, they are unfortunately giant, angry dragons many of whom have been exposed to thousands of years of this crap and are completely happy being what they are.

No people is beyond salvation, but I also don't believe in sacrificing many more lives for them.

Right plan time.
 
Right then

[X] Plan: Yikes there's a lot to do
-Warband actions*
-- Fields of Tears
-- The North Coast
--Agamand Mills
Personal actions**
-Brill
-Diplomacy
-Posture
-Many Blades
-

*Ok, my first instinct is to go for the Mill and the coast, but I also want to make an impression. However, I'm more than willing to go mill and coast for maximum sweet sweet infrastructure.

**I'm currently considering dropping posture as it feels like we could leave it for now in order to do something else, Many Blades I don't want to leave to fester, diplomacy is presumably time locked and Brill it feels we might be able to help with. However, if you want I can drop posture for the Mill or a different action if ya'll are interested.

I am also considering dropping Brill for something else even though it physically pains me. My preference would be dropping it for a requisition, either of a healer/magic user especially for an assault on the field.

realising I have one extra action I'm going big or going home with three actions campaiging.
Edit: Please bare in mind that like most things in my plans I can change it very quickly if given even a slight push what with how indecisive I am.
 
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