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Orc Quest; or, A Critical Examination of Agency Through in Interactive Fiction (Warcraft)

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Nevill said:
Am I missing something about how orcish command works?
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So far seems to be Mankrik's old enough with the charisma and personal strength to go "I am in charge" while the proper chain of command is incapacitated and that's apparently it until such a time as he ****s up.

Nevill said:
As for which exact business it represents... let's just say that I feel no particular guilt or remorse at the events that transpired on the mountain, save for the fact that we allowed his summoning and then failed to put him down. He is a weapon brought to bear by our enemies in a conflict that long precedes our involvement.

Leaning towards Honourable Stupidity, then, but without feeling much penance.
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Because Proudpeak is explicitly called Forneaus's herald. The two had a bond and an elemental duke one of the most powerful elementals below that of a lord might not have agreed to a summoning out of nowhere were it not for that, because there is a significant difference between preparing for something like that on a set date and pulling them in out of no where with a mass sacrifice.

For beings so unyielding as earth elementals the main reason I can imagine they'd decide to get up and do stuff is if they were hopping mad about something.

What the exact relationship the two had isn't certain, they had a relationship and our exact decision to imprison Proudpeak might not have prevented Forneaus's eventual summoning, but I'm quite confident in saying that it caused it now, especially when combined with how our decision to imprison Proudpeak did screw us over massively.

So no I think we have a lot to feel guilty about, I think that had we decided to not stray onto the path of dark shamanism we might have been able to find an alternative means, or at the very least we wouldn't have had a massive earth elemental smashing our evil Fel ritual at the worst possible moment. Had that not happened then it would have likely been Jubei'thelos bringing down the demon after it had at least inflicted some damage, or at the very least getting involved before we were utterly spent.

Netos said:
How could we have predicted that the Centaurs would sacrifice themselves in the hundreds, even using being defeated in battle for this purpose?
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The better question is "how could we have predicted that an elemental duke would allow themselves to be summoned in the first place."

The only time I can think of something of nearly equivalent magnitude happened it was Ragnaros, who required the resources of an entire kingdom with all of its best magic users. Yes there's a big gap between elemental lord and duke, but the point remains the same, entreating and summoning one is a big deal and it being willing to come at all seems to be the hardest part. Ragnaros certain is and in this instance we gave Forneaus a reason near as I can tell.

Netos said:
(may be Void / necromancy, Idk).
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Am leaning towards void or something akin to the original death knights created by Gul'dan, especially since he's in a human body.
 
Nevill said:
Am I missing something about how orcish command works?
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They're too informal for that, and remember they're communalists not a modern military. The flight master is going to be some Thunderlord guy who's job it is to train wyverns because that's how he contributes to the community. He's not the supply officer to a military unit etc. Similarly Mankrik has taken command as an ad hoc thing, he said just an experienced guy who's decided he's going to do it and is obeyed because people don't currently have a problem. If an actual 'horde official' came along and had a quiet word then maybe he'd step back. I've used him because he's the only burning blade guy in the Crossroads so I thought I'd bring him out.
Nevill said:
He is a weapon brought to bear by our enemies in a conflict that long precedes our involvement.
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This is a totally valid view, but Grok has a history of smashing his head against walls of history and tradition, like 'fixing' the blademasters
Doomed Wombat said:
Because Proudpeak is explicitly called Forneaus's herald.
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You've mentioned this a bit in your post but I thought I'd confirm, the relationship between them is indeed unclear, especially to Grok. There's an assumption that two elementals would be talking to each other, but I seem to recall putting a question mark on the herald sentence so yea just for awareness
 
[X] Plan: Honourable Stupidity

Sounds alright to me. I'd anything, I'd insist on not asking the flight master for a wyvern, since that will undermine the local chain puff command and make Mankrik's job harder. I don't want that and I think we can make it without doing so.
 
FractiousDay said:
You've mentioned this a bit in your post but I thought I'd confirm, the relationship between them is indeed unclear, especially to Grok. There's an assumption that two elementals would be talking to each other, but I seem to recall putting a question mark on the herald sentence so yea just for awareness
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You did and I may be interpreting too broadly, but I do think its a bit odd for an elemental duke to come in person beyond sacrifices etc.

Course it might be Forneaus is simply a dutiful chap who will do things if you shower him in enough blood/sacrifices.

Baltika9 said:
Sounds alright to me. I'd anything, I'd insist on not asking the flight master for a wyvern, since that will undermine the local chain puff command and make Mankrik's job harder. I don't want that and I think we can make it without doing so.
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I understand that logic, my view is that if one person going over his head to save Orgimmar is enough to undermine his chain of command then he was barely in command in the first place.

And then what's he going to do? Exile us? Get in line, war chief goes first then our father :p

That said do we need to write in "grab a weapon?" I'm fine keeping a hold of the broken blade for now and all, but still.
 
Doomed Wombat said:
Course it might be Forneaus is simply a dutiful chap who will do things if you shower him in enough blood/sacrifices.
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Also, 'doing a favour for your bosses' daughter', given Theredras the mother of the centaur race is the daughter of chief earth elemental.
Doomed Wombat said:
That said do we need to write in "grab a weapon?" I'm fine keeping a hold of the broken blade for now and all, but still.
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Nothing you could acquire quickly would be effective so I'd say Grok wouldn't bother. I'll write him getting some stuff for a sapta perhaps and give you the option to use that later maybe, not sure.

Adhoc vote count started by FractiousDay on Mar 29, 2021 at 2:45 PM, finished with 60 posts and 8 votes.
  • 14
    [X] Plan: Honourable Stupidity
    [X] By land instead
    [X] The way of caution
    [X]Write-in
    -[X]Ask the Blademasters here if they think they can get to Orgrimmar before you can ride there. Mention that if the Shamen here cannot reach the Elements, the same will apply to the Shamans of Orgrimmar, and you fear the worst ."As they said, you are the boy who wishes to be Blademaster, and time is of the essense. You would request that the fastest traveller Mankirk can spare go on to Orgrimmar, to warn them of the calamity. In exchange, you will take their place, but if you are faster, you will go." For that matter...You may be heir to the Burning blade, but Forneus is your fault. If you stay, you will submit to Mankirk's authority.
    [X] Plan Distraction Redemption: Get a bit of healing, see if any of the refugees in the camp have any useful skills, requisition some wolves, send your companions on to Orgrimmar with a warning of the danger, go and intercept Forneaus. Try and distract it, first by talk, then by being the cockroach that refuses to be crushed. (Essentially an elaborate suicide mission, but the sort of thing a guilt ridden honourable warrior might do.)
    [X] Plan Transformation: If he won't let you take one or send someone who can fly, maybe you can be turned into one. You've no idea what the effects might be on your psyche, untrained as you are, but that is a risk you are willing to take. (Different variation on the above. Replace turn into something with anything that is sufficiently dangerous, but gets us from points A to B quickly.)
    [X] Plan warn at all costs
    [X] Try to distract, delay or calm down Forneaus the elemental duke of earth, while sending on the other two to act as messengers.
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Currently Honourable Stupidity is ahead, will set the vote to close tomorrow morning.
 
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Vote closed
  • Voting
    • Scheduled vote count started by FractiousDay on Mar 28, 2021 at 11:58 AM, finished with 60 posts and 8 votes.
    • 14
      [X] Plan: Honourable Stupidity
      [X] By land instead
      [X] The way of caution
      [X]Write-in
      -[X]Ask the Blademasters here if they think they can get to Orgrimmar before you can ride there. Mention that if the Shamen here cannot reach the Elements, the same will apply to the Shamans of Orgrimmar, and you fear the worst ."As they said, you are the boy who wishes to be Blademaster, and time is of the essense. You would request that the fastest traveller Mankirk can spare go on to Orgrimmar, to warn them of the calamity. In exchange, you will take their place, but if you are faster, you will go." For that matter...You may be heir to the Burning blade, but Forneus is your fault. If you stay, you will submit to Mankirk's authority.
      [X] Plan Distraction Redemption: Get a bit of healing, see if any of the refugees in the camp have any useful skills, requisition some wolves, send your companions on to Orgrimmar with a warning of the danger, go and intercept Forneaus. Try and distract it, first by talk, then by being the cockroach that refuses to be crushed. (Essentially an elaborate suicide mission, but the sort of thing a guilt ridden honourable warrior might do.)
      [X] Plan Transformation: If he won't let you take one or send someone who can fly, maybe you can be turned into one. You've no idea what the effects might be on your psyche, untrained as you are, but that is a risk you are willing to take. (Different variation on the above. Replace turn into something with anything that is sufficiently dangerous, but gets us from points A to B quickly.)
      [X] Plan warn at all costs
      [X] Try to distract, delay or calm down Forneaus the elemental duke of earth, while sending on the other two to act as messengers.
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  • Voting
    • Rolls for newest chapter, took me a while to get around to it.

    Wyvern
    Wolf then
    Get in front of it
    FractiousDay threw 1 100-faced dice. Reason: Wyvern Total: 3
    3 3
    FractiousDay threw 1 100-faced dice. Reason: Get in front of it Total: 32
    32 32
    FractiousDay threw 1 100-faced dice. Reason: Wolf then Total: 89
    89 89
    FractiousDay threw 1 100-faced dice. Reason: Scorn? Total: 51
    51 51
     
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    FractiousDay said:
    This was actually quite easy but then this roll meant I wrote it for a wolf instead.
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    Sigh. Sometimes the dice just want ta dick you over.

    FractiousDay said:
    He's not massively loyal so he needed a roll and passed it by 1%
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    Yeah expected that. Glad he did, but surprised.

    Still, fingers crossed that man is slow enough that even with that dodge roll we can get in front before he hits somewhere populated...or Orgrimmar.
     
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    The March of Forneus 2
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    • March of Forneus 2

    "We have to go." you murmur, crowded with your intimates by an earth-shaken corner wall that leans like a drunkard.

    Did Mankrik have family here, perhaps in the path of the Quilboar? Was that why he refused to allow you to leave? Was he merely overly cautious?

    Such questions were irrelevant, the only important thing was that you got to Orgrimmar.

    First to the flight master. The Thunderlord beast tamers were one of the more independent clans and you doubted they'd owe much allegiance to a random Blademaster.

    Wyverns = 3

    Yet when you reach the artificial nests and posts the beasts are usually chained to you find none there, only a few wounded orcs and trolls.

    "What's happened here?" you demand as you walk up.

    "Da Loa be…" one troll begins, "Enraged mon, de be drivin' the wyverns mad till de turn on us instead!"

    "Are any left?"

    Just then the sky darkens quickly and another orc swoops down, his mount the strange combination of cat, bat and scorpion true to the wind riders, holding its wings in readiness as the orc spoke to another of his kind.

    Their conference is swift and you barely have time to consider grasping the beasts' reins yourself before the orc leaps to the saddle again and the wyvern flaps up, dust swirling in its wake.

    "We had twenty." one of the wounded orcs says in answer after the flier departs, "Now we have six."

    Mankrik has had the wyverns out at all hours, only giving them small chance to rest, one riding the thermals over the Crossroads while others fly out as scouts. None of the former riders seem displeased and rebuff you strongly when you make your address.

    But you still need to get to Orgrimmar…

    By wolf then = 89

    "These are my fastest." the Warsong says, "May Lo'Gosh give you swiftness."

    The Warsong wolf master had been far more amenable to your plight and you'd only had to give a brief summary of the situation before he'd led you quickly to the stable and pulled out three large beasts.

    Their pelts are dark, their eyes glinting with light. Peons gear them easily, giving you enough provisions to eat in the saddle too.

    "At the run it's five days to Orgrimmar." the Warsong continues, "Sleep in the saddle and you'll do it in three."

    "Can they bear such a pace?" Could you?

    "It may kill them at the other end." the Warsong replies with seriousness, "But you have no choice. Ride swiftly, take the roads as much as you can but look to speed rather than secrecy for your safety."

    Could you abandon your companions to the tusks of the quilboar if it meant you got ahead? Or leave behind one if they became wounded or their mount lame?

    You found no irony in the sacrifice the Warsong was making by giving you the wolves. At least this time the sacrifice wasn't for only yourself or your own clan.

    Then you see Scorn standing with arms crossed, the reins of his wolf trailing in the dirt as the beast looks up to him.

    He was far from loyal. By his own confession he'd only survived because he'd deserted the battlefield before he could be crushed, would he now desert you? What was his appetite for such a hazardous mission? For a moment you feel fate's coin balance on its edge, then fall.

    Scorn = 51

    His face set the sergeant throws a leg over his mount.

    You ride. On and on, over plains cracked and burning, twice holding your breath as the wolves fearlessly charger through walls of flame, the pads of their feet untroubled by the heat, crushing cinders beneath them.

    The land burns, each way you look a new plume of smoke is rising, hills are cracked in half, the earth's blood spurting up from underneath and the sky is dark and sorrowful.

    The sun sets and rises again, though from the grey overcast day you'd hardly know it, navigating by the dead reckoning of the wolves and the barest hints on light you get from the heavens.

    You're battered and sore by the time you stop, two days into the ride, somewhere in the high hills overlooking Durotar, the Southfury river below you.

    It's as Kartha said, the great water has spilled out all along the eastern bank and now it looks like a single muddy mass. That was the country where you'd fought Darkstorm. Now Thunder Ridge was submerged almost completely beneath the floodwaters.

    Getting in front = 32

    But further on, looking inland between the river and the sea you spy something else.

    While southern Durotar is all hills and valleys with frequent breaks for small rivers or forests, the north is a wider place, though with fewer settlements due to the land being riven with canyons. There are freeholding farmers but no real settlements and it's really just a series of roads from Sentinel Hill in the rough middle or Durotar to Orgrimmar and the northern capital. You walked these canyons, both when you went to Orgrimmar itself and when you went to fight Darkstorm and you know them well enough.

    Not now.
    A mountain rises from the canyons. A great peak above the flatter plain of the north of the province.

    Forneus.

    "He cannot be more than two days away!" Kartha cries, pointing to the smudge on the horizon you know is the city. "We can't catch him at this rate."

    "Will he not be slowed by the canyons?" asks Scorn.

    You suspect he already has been. Below you down the rise you now stand on you see a great trench that's been driven across the land, likely the path of your quarry. Though the Elemental hasn't been slowed nearly as much as you'd have hoped by the terrain it seems at least that he can't float over it by whatever magic he possesses.

    It's like you're at the three points of a triangle. Forneus is across the river, deep in the canyons of Durotar. You are west of him on the other side of the river, while Orgrimmar is to the north of both of you. While you might make for the city to warn the people there and give them what information you have, you don't think you'd arrive long before Forneus does, if not at the same time. On the other hand you could ford the river here and catch up with Forneus as he exits the canyons network, potentially confronting him.

    You have two options, neither of them to your liking…

    [ ] Warn the City
    You have critical information regarding Forneus, including the conditions of his summoning and his origins. Without knowing the context how can the shaman of Orgrimmar be expected to match him, if they're able to do so at all? However, if you go to the city there's little change of giving them much warning and you'll have no impact on Forneus himself.

    [ ] Confront the Duke
    Send Kartha and Scorn to warn the city and ride for the canyons yourself to confront the Duke. Your companions won't be able to answer all the questions the Warchief or others may have, which will make the inevitable confrontation with Forneus less informed, but you may be able to confront the Elemental yourself, and at least delay him. Forneus is unlikely to listen to reason, summoned up by the hatred of the Kolkar, but perhaps you can at least delay him, even if it costs you your life.


    And once again we have a thematic choice. Do you go try and do something yourself, taking responsibility for your failings and taking the emotional route because of your guilt? Or do you trust in your superiors, acknowledge your failings and slip into greater depression due to your weakness and reliance on others? Some results are guaranteed here, for example the first option means Orgrimmar gets warning and information, but very little time to prepare, while the second option's results are much more nebulous, Orgrimmar may get some information, but neither Kartha nor Scorn were present for key parts of the battle and wouldn't have as good an understanding of events as you do.

    I'd planned a cool flying sequence or similar but you got such a low roll for the wyverns I didn't think I could justify it. In that case you could have gotten there far sooner then by land and given Orgrimmar more warning.

    Also it took a while for me to get around to writing this so let me know if there are any notable issues.
     
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    • Not going to vote just yet, since I do want to consider the implications of just trying to confront.

    Not just in the "imminent death" department, but also the implications it has on his character growth.

    I suppose its just the wording of the update, but "acknowledge your mistakes" makes me feel like the confront option isn't doing that, which I thought it was.

    @FractiousDay what information would we guarantee would be passed on? While not present for most of it, I'm not sure what we can give deeper insights into the situation with Forneaus than they can. AKA who he is, why he's here.

    The only detail that I think they wouldn't be aware of is Proudpeek.

    Side note, if we do end up going to confront, I wonder if we're liable to end up as sort of a flipside Grom in Thrall's eyes. Young, independent, overconfident (a gigantic pain in his kiester) and preferring to rely on themselves to the detriment of the whole. The difference being we cause cataclysms entirely without intending too :p
     
    FractiousDay said:
    And once again we have a thematic choice. Do you go try and do something yourself, taking responsibility for your failings and taking the emotional route because of your guilt?
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    That was what the spirit of our previous discussion sold me on.

    [X] Confront the Duke
    Send Kartha and Scorn to warn the city and ride for the canyons yourself to confront the Duke. Your companions won't be able to answer all the questions the Warchief or others may have, which will make the inevitable confrontation with Forneus less informed, but you may be able to confront the Elemental yourself, and at least delay him. Forneus is unlikely to listen to reason, summoned up by the hatred of the Kolkar, but perhaps you can at least delay him, even if it costs you your life.
     
    Doomed Wombat said:
    @FractiousDay what information would we guarantee would be passed on? While not present for most of it, I'm not sure what we can give deeper insights into the situation with Forneaus than they can. AKA who he is, why he's here.
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    To answer this first, Kartha observed the battle from a significant distance away. She saw what the Kolkar shaman were up to but saw nothing on the mountain itself.

    Scorn fought in the battle, but bailed in 'round 4' when Proudpeak revealed himself, and just before the demon was summon and Forneus showed himself.

    Both of them are missing key parts of the battle, but also the sider context. Neither have demonology knowledge and wouldn't have the theoretical understanding of what went on. For example, Thrall is probably going to want to know whether the situation can be resolved peacefully, and the answer that's given to such a question will be highly dependant on who's presenting the information.

    Take Jubei'thos for example. If you're not there Thrall might get the impression that this is all some sort of overblown internal Burning Blade matter because there's Blademasters on both sides, and therefore believe Forneus is offended by the demonic magics the Burning Blade were doing up on the mountain. In particular things like the Kolkar's weird sacrificial tactics wouldn't be fully realised by Scorn because he's not a shaman and doesn't have the background to identify it, he might not mention it because he'd just think it was a bit weird but not important.

    It goes to who is presenting the information and about what.

    Who is ultimately 'responsible' for the battle?

    Jubei'thos because you picked that 'Hunted' perk at the start?
    The Burning Blade warlocks because they were messing about with demon stuff?
    The Kolkar (and ultimately their controller Theredras) because they don't like orcs?
    You because you brought Proudpeak there and he somehow beckoned Forneus in? (or allowing the warlocks to summon the urzul etc)
    General historical and political motions, specifically tensions in the Barrens over the last few years?

    I'm also not giving the option to give some sort of detailed briefing via the others because of the tense emotional state of all the characters, so you can't have the best of both worlds and warn Orgrimmar and delay Forneus. Everyone's exhausted and it's not like you can sit down and write out a note.

    Doomed Wombat said:
    I suppose its just the wording of the update, but "acknowledge your mistakes" makes me feel like the confront option isn't doing that, which I thought it was.
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    Grom is a good example. Grom is consistently characterised as impatient, glory hungry, desiring honour and so on. He's the first to drink demon blood (twice) and the only one to properly maintain his clan on the move between the Second and Third Wars. He's self-reliant and bullheaded. He starts a war with the night elves and dials it up when he drinks demons blood again. His mission wasn't to exterminate the night elves, it was to set up bases and specifically to get resources, but because of his history and character he escalated that.

    You by comparison have tried to smash your face into brick walls of complex social and political matters and navigate nebulous interactions of tradition and modernity. You want to 'fix' stuff, like bringing back the Blademasters to glory etc. You've tried to seek strength with honour because of your self-doubt, and constantly tried to better yourself in the eyes of others while also maintaining your honour etc. You're very self reliant, you don't like asking for help and you try to do things yourself, like trying to be a shaman by reading a book about your own clans special traditions etc rather than asking others about it.

    The choice here represents falling into the habit of trying to do everything yourself because you want to 'fix' stuff, or comparably accepting that sometimes things aren't actually your fault and sometimes things perhaps can't even be fixed. Akinos practiced a code of very personal honour, but he didn't try to go about improving other people or other issues, his honour was self-contained as it were. Thrall would be the opposite, he wants to 'export' honour and so on.

    I'm rambling a bit now but I think that gets the idea across. Yes you'd be 'acknowledge your mistakes' in summoning a big demon etc, but as mentioned further up in this post, is that actually your fault or is this a result of complex things you don't really have control over?
     
    Kartha and Scorn do not really know the circumstances, whereas Grok'mash does.
    FractiousDay said:
    Both of them are missing key parts of the battle, but also the wider context. Neither have demonology knowledge and wouldn't have the theoretical understanding of what went on.
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    It is necessary to give Thrall and the shamans all the available information: corrupted Jubei'thos, the Kolkar sacrificing themselves, the demon summoning. All of it.
    FractiousDay said:
    Take Jubei'thos for example. If you're not there Thrall might get the impression that this is all some sort of overblown internal Burning Blade matter because there's Blademasters on both sides, and therefore believe Forneus is offended by the demonic magics the Burning Blade were doing up on the mountain. In particular things like the Kolkar's weird sacrificial tactics wouldn't be fully realised by Scorn because he's not a shaman and doesn't have the background to identify it
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    Giving critical information is going to have a better impact than going personally and getting smashed like a mosquito. After all, following duty also means recognizing your role in a given situation.

    [X] Warn the City
    You have critical information regarding Forneus, including the conditions of his summoning and his origins. Without knowing the context how can the shaman of Orgrimmar be expected to match him, if they're able to do so at all? However, if you go to the city there's little change of giving them much warning and you'll have no impact on Forneus himself.
     
    FractiousDay said:
    Who is ultimately 'responsible' for the battle?
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    Causality you bastard!

    Joking aside, the correct answer is all of them, but as you can't blame everyone I imagine we're taking the chop over all (I say we deserve it). I'd blame Jub, but unfortunately we don't know much beyond "he was there and took advantage." That he's responsible for riling up the Kolkar etc. is irrelevant.

    And frankly so is the blame game, at least to Grok. IMO he's probably in the state where he's resolved to take his fall once everything is said and done.

    FractiousDay said:
    I'm also not giving the option to give some sort of detailed briefing via the others because of the tense emotional state of all the characters, so you can't have the best of both worlds and warn Orgrimmar and delay Forneus. Everyone's exhausted and it's not like you can sit down and write out a note.
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    No need, I'm not that oblivious to the obvious :p

    I will say Scorn not mentioning them literally killing themselves as "just a bit weird" is a bit odd, but hey ho.

    FractiousDay said:
    rather than asking others about it.
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    TBF the general impression of the rest of the clan wasn't that they'd welcome questions about it :p

    Especially not with Fel dad in charge.

    FractiousDay said:
    I'm rambling a bit now but I think that gets the idea across. Yes you'd be 'acknowledge your mistakes' in summoning a big demon etc, but as mentioned further up in this post, is that actually your fault or is this a result of complex things you don't really have control over?
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    Personal responsibility (and lack there of) is a hell of a complex thing.

    I'll try and give my two cents here in a way that makes sense, though I'm glad you agree on the Grom point.

    If I'm understanding you correctly, we're being offered the crossroad between lock Grok into a path of "bare the weight of the world on my shoulders" until he breaks vs "common sense" at the cost of worsening his personal feelings of worthlessness.

    To give a bit of a counter, I don't think we're approaching this as a "I must or even can fix this issue" sort of thing. Its not the same as Grom's innumerable fuck ups on more levels than just the intentionality behind the disaster, but also that we are inherantly not relying on others in both scenarios. Grom always had the Warsong, arguably they were practically an extension of him at many points they were that devoted seeing as they followed him into slavery eagerly not once, but twice, so I wouldn't exactly call that "relying" on others in the way we're doing now. See how I'm pretty sure he didn't send messengers down to Thrall with the Night Elves at all etc.


    To get back to Grok, both options by definition demand we accept this is a mess we cannot solve, a fight we cannot win and something we can't "smash our face into a brick wall on."* Only that we are capable of influencing the outcome through a limited degree of personal action.

    If we go and distract we're trusting the two to reach Orgrimmar, that Thrall and co can stop em, info or no and the most we can do is try to give them more time to accomplish this and maybe ensure the battle won't happen next to or in Orgrimmar. If that isn't relying on others I'm not sure what is.

    *Well maybe a granite wall and literally, but that's another matter entirely.

    Warning leans harder in that direction than distract since it does remove the personal element, but I don't see them as that divergent in terms of solidifying Grok's self-reliance ad absurdem. If anything the Distract option deemphasizes it, since he's essentially entrusting his life to them and Thrall in a much more literal way than warning.
     
    Doomed Wombat said:
    Personal responsibility (and lack there of) is a hell of a complex thing.

    I'll try and give my two cents here in a way that makes sense, though I'm glad you agree on the Grom point.

    If I'm understanding you correctly, we're being offered the crossroad between lock Grok into a path of "bare the weight of the world on my shoulders" until he breaks vs "common sense" at the cost of worsening his personal feelings of worthlessness.
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    Don't necessarily disagree on the points there, but yes it's all contributing to the confrontation at the end of the arc, one which will be decided by talking rather than battle.
     
    To present a counter argument,

    Netos said:
    It is necessary to give Thrall and the shamans all the available information: corrupted Jubei'thos, the Kolkar sacrificing themselves, the demon summoning. All of it.
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    While I agree (though can argue for why it might not be, but just from the narrative I imagine that'd be bollocks) I do disagree on Jub. Thing is to my knowledge Jub isn't connected to the Kolkar, as far as Grok or anyone else know he's another rogue blade master, who took the opportunity to strike. OOC we know he's responsible for riling up the Kolkar so they attacked with our assault being the straw on the proverbial camel as it were, but Grok doesn't get meta knowledge.

    As such informing Thrall about Jub is, while liable to be useful in the long term, not really relevant to the immediate problem. Unless he pops up again in the near future, (in which case we are dead, but the issue of needing clarity neatly solves itself) explaining him is the only bit that isn't relevant. First impressions are a massive deal, however I am going to unwillingly put my trust in Thrall and hope that if we do survive our suicide attempt he'll give us a chance to clarify that point at least.

    Netos said:
    Giving critical information is going to have a better impact than going personally and getting smashed like a mosquito. After all, following duty also means recognizing your role in a given situation.
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    This I argue comes down a lot to perspective. If we get there before him (which isn't a guarantee) then our info maybe what Thrall needs to calm the elemental duke of earth down...but we might be too late and accomplish nothing.

    Or, more chillingly, diplomacy may really not be an option here. I hope that isn't the case, but I can't discount it. Forneas is moving for many reasons, and earth elementals I imagine are something like an avalanche, very hard to get moving in a certain direction, but very dedicated to their goal once they've started. We've discussed many reasons why Forneas might be doing this and even one of them would be enough really.

    Thrall is of course Thrall, he is element boi supreme, but as he knows best some elementals are just unreasonable. In which case distract is our best option, since it may well not matter what he says, so preparation for overcoming is key.

    That said as you said, imitating a pancake is a very real risk for distraction. Nat 1 or just shitty roles in general are always possible.

    However, no matter what (assuming no dog shite rolls on their part) Thrall is getting some relevant info on the situation and distraction buys potentially three things as I see.

    1. Time, obviously.
    2. Much less likely, but arguing with Forneaus. You have to remember we have the best information on what really happened there, whether we're the best people to make use of that information is another matter, but we do have it and we can use it to try and at least butter him up in the right direction. Put some thoughts in his head, or calm him with our blood. Of course we may **** up and piss him off more, but that's a risk if Thrall has the info too.
    3. Time in a different way. I'm not sure if this is actually a thing, but I imagine that elementals (never mind ones as strong as him) cannot remain in the material plain, without something keeping them there, and he's not exactly in a place that is inuandated with earth mojo. If anything I'd guess he's running on the dead Kolkar's sacrifices. I've no idea if the longer he's here the weaker he gets, or if it just gets him closer to timing out, but I am hopeful he is on some form of timer that we can put more pressure on through distraction.*
    *Again to clarify I do not know if this is an actual thing, and I'm just hoping it is.

    FractiousDay said:
    Don't necessarily disagree on the points there, but yes it's all contributing to the confrontation at the end of the arc, one which will be decided by talking rather than battle.
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    Confrontation with who :p

    No offense to the big guy, but I'm getting the feeling the big end piece is going to be with Thrall not Forneaus.

    Irregardless, I get what you mean by not necessarily disagree, so all I can do is ask you consider it when deciding how the character arc continues. Its a perspective thing as always, but intentionally or not, no matter what we end up doing Grok's going to be relying on other's to save him more than he ever has in his entire life, since he's extremely dead either way without them.

    Edit: Of course I may have just entire misinterpreted that and you were only refering to that specific quote, instead of the entire post, in which case I'm a ninny...so nothing new there :D
     
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    *crosses arms*...So this is important.
    I realize this is thought that probably will come 'after the fact' but...
    As I understood it, Kartha knows the Centaur were doing a THING, but she doesn't know about the ProudPeak/Uzul demon throwdown at the top.
    Scorn knows the Centaur were weird, but ran the second the GIANT THROWDOWN started because screw getting stepped on. (In fairness, I don't blame him for thinking that!)
    Jubei'thos screws things up further- if Thrall thinks this an internal Burning Blade matter, he's likely to think 'oh I can't let these idiots out of my sight for a second, can I', and thus censure the clan, and likely Grok, for that matter. It arguably solves the problem, but it'd suck mightily for any remaining Blademasters like Mankirk.
    So. What will Thrall know?
    He knows the Centaur DID A THING, and that then there was some sort of GIANT THROWDOWN that happened afterwards. And then something something Duke Forneus arrived to ruin the Horde's day. He could blame the Burning blade, but I also suspect he'll generally be more 'I've got to keep my eye on these idiots!'
    That's the guaranteed knowledge.
    Now, assuming Grok goes to warn Orgrimmar, and makes it in time (Dang rolls!) he will know more specifically what went wrong- Proudpeak being captured, busting loose, fighting the Burning Blade Demon into Forneus appearing.
    Now, it's probably more clearly Grok's screw-up here, but also that Grok is earnestly trying to help, it's just more like he's halping, then helping. Thrall might demote him rank-wise and put him somewhere he'll be less likely to cause trouble, while he gets his head on straight, likely aided by Grok's repentant state. But I think Thrall will have a clearer sense of what happened-namely the Burning blade might have summoned a demon, but even without them the Centaur was going to bring some Earth Elemental to the party-possibly even Proudpeak irregardless of Grok's shenanigans.
    ...So, which way is better for the Clan?
    ...Ideally the one were we distract, and live distracting him somehow.
    But...If we don't distract, it looks maybe like we're just running to the Horde to clean up the mess we made. Thrall probably doesn't approve, but might be willing to hear us out in exchange for knowing our place in the future (He could use the shame to force pressure on getting rid of the Warlocks/forcing them to convert to Shamanism.)...
    IDK.
    Was thinking best to go to the city make sure the full intel was gotten, but there's something to be said for running after the Duke...
     
    Zaealix said:
    Blademasters like Mankirk.
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    Don't think Mankrirk needs to worry wot with him leaving the Burning Blade ages ago.

    Anyway, my issue is that a lot of what you've said focuses on the long term, when the long term feels less relevant to Grok right now. Things like Jub and the future of the burning blade matter comparatively little in the face of the Barren's going cata and Forneas barreling through Orgrimmar's front gates.

    Grok does have key information, Proudpeak, the fact he was always likey coming and what the demon was specifically, but while Thrall will likely form a first impression, as long as he's not literally scraping us off the side of a mountain he's going to learn everything we know from us later.

    Whether this first impression will result in us being more or less condemned in his eye if we give the full story I don't know, but if you want to consider the long term stuff, don't treat it as a binary "he won't know if we distract." The difference is primarily "he won't know until after he's had a chance to form some first impressions."

    Either way he's finding out.

    Anyway, interesting thing with going to the city is that Thrall on a personal level may appreciate it, since one of the Ork's biggest issues is being morons and running off to do stupid stuff. Ordinarily I'd say distract 100% falls into that category, however I'm going to say it only 95% does because we're doing it for legit tactical value with back up plans etc, not just because we want to gain some abstract notion of glory, which is certainly a lot better than the normal.

    Also we're going to need to find a way to repay the warsong.

    Saved our damn buttskies there.

    Gotta sleep, but ATM I'm divided. I want to do distract cause
    A. Cool
    and
    B. I think the character development is interesting.

    Thing is I think I and the QM have different views on what that character development would be, which stays my hand.
     
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    Thematically speaking, I like the choice to confront the elemental and distract him. I imagine, in Grok's mind, he's doing it in a way to repent for his failures. That he, being partially responsible for the deaths of so many, and perhaps instigating the chain reaction that will lead to many more, would sacrifice himself to seek some sort of redemption in death for the dishonor he (and perhaps his clan) had brought onto the Horde. Like, commit sudoku by way of angry elements.

    In a way, i'm also sort of reminded of how in canon, several of the orcs had a death seeker mentality because of having participated in horrible shit during the old wars. Granted, Grok's not done as much as them, but he's seen enough skeevy shit now to really question if he and his clan are in the wrong. Plus, maybe a bit of survivor's guilt.

    By confronting the elemental alone, not only does he buy time for the Horde, but i think it also gives Grok the chance to engage with the elemental and find out what specifically set him off. To, in a temporary state of fatalism and despair, die with some shred of honor and gain some degree of closure (whether death takes him or not) for what has led to this point. Who knows, maybe he hopes he can coax the elemental to simply take his life and leave everyone else alone.

    The choice to simply go straight to Orgrimmar and warn them would provide Thrall with more accurate information, and indeed, may be the more practical choice, but from a narrative perspective, a lone orc standing against the embodiment of the sins of his clan and maybe some other people, regardless of whether he lives or not, seems like the stuff of legends.
     
    hapcelion said:
    The choice to simply go straight to Orgrimmar and warn them would provide Thrall with more accurate information, and indeed, may be the more practical choice, but from a narrative perspective, a lone orc standing against the embodiment of the sins of his clan
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    is very cool, true, but watch out for bad rolls. If that is chosen, I hope the rule of cool can protect us. Although, I don't see anything bad in being the messenger with the knowledge that changes how the Big Day plays out.

    hapcelion said:
    he's seen enough skeevy shit now to really question if he and his clan are in the wrong
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    My 50 cents that the confrontation at the end of the chapter is with Neeru. Remember that he is "a puppet's servant" after all.

    Doomed Wombat said:
    To get back to Grok, both options by definition demand we accept this is a mess we cannot solve, a fight we cannot win and something we can't "smash our face into a brick wall on."* Only that we are capable of influencing the outcome through a limited degree of personal action.
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    Yeah, both options require Grok'mash to trust others to do important things, whether that be carrying a message or reacting to our message. It's time to realize that 1 sword alone can only go so far, and start playing the diplomacy game.*
    *well, there is no relevant diplomacy when you are demoted to grunt. In which case, it's time to become... 🦇 not the hero that Orgrimmar deserves, but the one that it needs XD
     
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    Ah crap.

    I think is I know where Jub's going and I don't like it. Guess the Crossroad's is in trouble quillboars or no, since there's what 3 blademasters there? Even if one is only an ex-clan member.

    hapcelion said:
    In a way, i'm also sort of reminded of how in canon, several of the orcs had a death seeker mentality because of having participated in horrible shit during the old wars. Granted, Grok's not done as much as them, but he's seen enough skeevy shit now to really question if he and his clan are in the wrong. Plus, maybe a bit of survivor's guilt.

    By confronting the elemental alone, not only does he buy time for the Horde, but i think it also gives Grok the chance to engage with the elemental and find out what specifically set him off. To, in a temporary state of fatalism and despair, die with some shred of honor and gain some degree of closure (whether death takes him or not) for what has led to this point. Who knows, maybe he hopes he can coax the elemental to simply take his life and leave everyone else alone.

    The choice to simply go straight to Orgrimmar and warn them would provide Thrall with more accurate information, and indeed, may be the more practical choice, but from a narrative perspective, a lone orc standing against the embodiment of the sins of his clan and maybe some other people, regardless of whether he lives or not, seems like the stuff of legends.
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    I'm wary of trying to justify it like that, not just because I think death is never an apology, but also because it walks a very fine line with the whole shouldering the problems of the world department.

    This really shouldn't be for Grok's personal honour or glory, as you say its primary benefit is giving us time because we won't be able to calm Forneaus's rage alone. That's pretty much a guarantee, his target is Orgrimmar and I can think of nothing we can offer in exchange that will be sufficient to halt him. To use the elemental connections to frame this, if we're going to try and get in his way then we need to stop acting like earth, strong, immobile, independent and slow, or fire which is passionate, bur burns out, we need to act like the wind (appropriately the one we have the least connection too.)

    Its insubstantial and always present, if not necessarily able to do a lot of stuff, but is necessary for other people to live. We need to accept that no matter what we do we can't solve this problem alone, just hopefully be the thing that enables other to do it for us. There's glory in that sure, but Grok (and indeed many orcs) have a hard time gronking (heh) that is the case.

    Netos said:
    It's time to realize that 1 sword alone can only go so far, and start playing the diplomacy game.*
    *well, there is no relevant diplomacy when you are demoted to grunt. In which case, it's time to become... 🦇 not the hero that Orgrimmar deserves, but the one that it needs XD
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    I mean I'm sure Thrall can swing sending the Grunt as ambassador to Theramore as an insult to humans, while in reality I imagine Jania gives zero shits.

    That said cause this is bothering me, but @FractiousDay when you get back, what is appropriate restitution for three excellent riding Wargs? Yes they were given and their owner knew they'd likely die, but I can't imagine they won't want something in compensation.

    Although not thinking about it too much I am thinking about what happens afterwards too. Got a few ideas.
     
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