Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

TheWoo · Mar 23, 2021

[X] Laurelorn

Superdion · Mar 23, 2021

[x] Carcassonne

ShyPerson · Mar 23, 2021

[X] Laurelorn

The most intriguing option for me. Besides, they were the impetus of this whole thing in the first place.

Romv · Mar 23, 2021

[X] The Grey College
I like the Colleges as depicted in this quest, and the Hedgeguys sound interesting as well.
[X] Karak Eight Peaks
Belegar has our back, and I'm fond of the dwarves. Also, I like the familiar.
[X] Laurelorn
TREES. Also books and stuff.
[] Carcassonne
Meh. I wouldn't be upset if it wins, but ... meh.
[] Kislev
It's interesting, but not interesting enough?

patrickxx · Mar 23, 2021

[X] Laurelorn

A_Somebody · Mar 23, 2021

[X] Laurelorn

I'm a tree hugging hippy who wants to help the not extremely mean Tree Elves not get completely screwed over.

MiracleGrow · Mar 23, 2021

[X] Laurelorn
[X] Kislev

HeWhoAdds · Mar 23, 2021

[X] The Grey College
[X] Karak Eight Peaks
[X] Laurelorn
[X] Carcassonne
[X] Kislev

I just want everyone to have a good time

picklepikkl · Mar 23, 2021

fan_of_D_Andreev said:
What is this? Feigned minute long akward ignoring us to demonstrate their superior status? Seems very weird. Or should we've done something like kneel before them?

It is a solution to the following paradox: it is insulting to address someone the wrong way, but they can't ask you themselves because they don't have the form of address to speak to you! So they pretend you aren't there (because acknowledging you would require them to greet you, which they can't do) until their servant finds out what's correct, and then they can talk to you without ever breaching protocol.

Wtf is his problem? They have shrines to the Lady and big-huge castles nobles dwell in, aren't those monuments?

Bretonnia's official stance is that it defends itself with the strength and nobility of the knights of Bretonnia by the blessings of the Lady. Things like "mercenaries," "waystones," and other such accessories are officially ignored and talked around.

?????

"Sweetie, is that a good enough response that we should bring up the thing we want help with?" "Yeah, go for it."

The guy says he should speak unrelatedly of other matters they are pressed with and need no mystical assistance because they are able to overcome with thanks to the Lady. And then they tell there are some chaos-worshipping chaos orcs - for what purpose? If they need assistance with that, why say they don't need assistance. If they don't need assistance, why tell about a problem without bragging about how they are able to solve it without assistance?

Bretonnia is a land where the narrative of chivalry is all-important. So, obviously, the chaos orcs aren't a real threat that they'd need foreign wizards to help with. But good Bretonnian rulers don't confuse the narrative with reality: the Chaos Orcs are in fact a serious threat and growing more serious, and pushing them back by depriving them of Chaotic energies seems like a good tactic. So this way the Duke can tell us what he needs without ever saying anything that implies a dependence on external help.

It's twisty and confusing, I agree. Some people really enjoy that, some people want to run in the opposite direction.

Shard · Mar 23, 2021

fan_of_D_Andreev said:
I would very much love it if you explained some of the points. I can't figure what's up with the duke, he and his wife seemed random to me at several points.

Okay.. my best attempt here:

BoneyM said:
Both seem to be studiously ignoring you, which you begin to frown at until a steward sidles up to you. "What is the preferred address for madam?" he asks in a stage whisper.

"Lady Magister Weber will be fine," you reply.

Both the Duke and Duchess are operating under irritating chivalric legalese with appropriate names and politeness rules here.

BoneyM said:
"Lady Magister Weber," Duke Huebald says in greeting, only now seeming to notice you. "I am Duke Huebald d'Carcassonne of Carcassonne, and this is my wife, Duchess Schermilde, who will translate for me," he says in heavily accented but still intelligible Bretonnian. The Bretonni came into the Reik basin with the tribes that eventually gave rise to the Empire, and their language has not yet drifted so far as to be unintelligible to you - at least, not among the upper classes. The accent and variations become stronger as you go further down in social class, with the peasantry completely omitting the past tense from their speech and using future tense in its place for reasons you cannot begin to fathom.

"A pleasure," Duchess Schermilde says with a curtsy, making no attempt to translate.

"Likewise," you reply.

This is the duke 'including' the duchess into the discussion, presumably because under some chivalric law or something she isn't supposed to be involved or something like that. Purportedly, Mathilde is negotiating only with the Duke and the Duchess isn't even involved at all.

BoneyM said:
The Duke gestures, and the steward and the man who lead you here depart from the room. "You have a plan," he says leadingly.

"The Grey College of the Empire, the Eonir of Laurelorn, and the Dwarves of Karak Eight Peaks seek to enter into a research project together to investigate the Waystones. There's debate as to where the research should be performed, and some feel it would avoid problems if it is located outside all three. So we look to our allies in the west."

"We've been reading up on these Eonir," Schermilde says. "Fascinating people. Dangerous, of course, but only when provoked."

No legalese twisting here.

BoneyM said:
"Bretonnia does not need monuments to banish evils. But there are many innocents we cannot protect, and Dwarves are good friends to have. We are willing to help."

This is really a roundabout way of saying 'yes' to the waystones while staying within chivalric ideals of not needing a waystone.

BoneyM said:
"Morgiana is too, our upstairs neighbour. She's a busy woman, but she says she's willing to give you a nudge or two in the right direction, and to have one of her helpers join your number."

You raise your eyebrows at that. "A generous offer."

"Morgiana, Fey Enchantress, will back you up with this (but no I'm not actually saying this, I assume because you can't actually speak like that for an Enchantress and/or they're supposed to be aloof) along with one of her best damsels (but for chivalric reasons we cannot actually say that it's her best, have to be humble).

BoneyM said:
Duke Huebald frowns, and exchanges a look with his wife, who nods. "We shall speak unrelatedly of other matters that we are pressed with, but nonetheless able to overcome with thanks to the Lady, so we need no mystical assistance with," she says. "To demonstrate the truth of our chivalrous nature, and so how worthy partners we would be."

"These are totally related matters, which we have some issues with but we assure you will be/have been dealt with and/or are our stake in the matter. We would really appreciate your magical help here."

BoneyM said:
"Iron Orcs," the Duke says. "Like Black Orcs, but with the armour set into their skin, bearing runes of the Dark Gods. They come from the mountains in greater numbers every year." You grimace at that. Though the greenskins almost always stay true to their native Gods of Gork and Mork, that 'almost' covers more than enough nasty examples to give any ruler cause for concern, and motivation to seek esoteric answers - even if their societal rules prevent them from saying so outright.

"Problem 1: Chaos Orcs. I really hope the waystones help here."

BoneyM said:
"You'll find few places as secure as Castle Carcassonne," Schermilde says, "and we do have some of these stones your letter described in the area, I visited one myself to confirm. And don't worry about supplies - by river we are joined to Quenelles and Brionne, and from Brionne by sea to the world. Though little is made here, anything can be brought here. Morgiana certainly imports plenty of equipment for her experiments."

"The base of operations for the waystone project is Castle Carcassonne. We have access to waystones and have some knowledge about them. We have wide-ranging trade networks with the world to solve any apparant problems of a lack of industry."

BoneyM said:
You nod. The Bretonnian navy does not consider itself bound by the Lady's prohibition against gunpowder, and as such their Galleons possess a formidable cannon broadside that is more than able to secure the Bretonnian coastline. "There is the question of status. I understand that Bretonnia has different ideas to the Empire about who can hold power..."

"Most know better than to gainsay any magic-wielding women," Schermilde says with a smile. "And besides, you are a Knight of your Realm. Anyone that would not respect either of those is a cur that deserves whatever punishment you deem fitting." The Duke nods firmly. "Oh, and there is another thing. Morgiana said, what was it... 'your friend can visit with you as long as he makes no plans to stay'. Something about a colleague of yours, I suppose?"

"Anyone messing with you is in for a bad time. Ranald can visit and use his divine magic and stuff, but please don't actually set up shrines here thanks."

BoneyM said:
"I understand what she means," you say with a nod. You'd heard that Ranald is outright proscribed in Bretonnia, but you didn't have any plans to broadcast your faith of Him so didn't think it would cause problems. But it is nice to have that outright confirmed. "Thank you for meeting with me. I'll let you know as soon as I can where the project will be based out of. Even if it's not in Bretonnia, if it bears fruit we'll do our best to spread the benefits as widely as possible."

"Good intentions have a way of fading with distance," Schermilde replies, her smile a little strained. "Do think it over."

"We're concerned we'll be left out of the benefits of the waystone project if it's not based with us. We're not really going to help as much if you don't base it with us."

deathofrats0808 · Mar 23, 2021

You can really see that where the Empire was influenced by Dwarfs, Bretonnia was influenced by Elves.

me.me.here · Mar 23, 2021

[X] Laurelorn

[x] Karak Eight Peaks

Jyn Ryvia · Mar 23, 2021

fan_of_D_Andreev said:
Sry if it's offtopic, maybe someone helps me with this, I feel very stupid but I want to learn.

What is this? Feigned minute long akward ignoring us to demonstrate their superior status? Seems very weird. Or should we've done something like kneel before them?

What is his problem? They have shrines to the Lady and big-huge castles nobles dwell in, aren't those monuments?

?????

The guy says he should speak unrelatedly of other matters they are pressed with and need no mystical assistance because they are able to overcome with thanks to the Lady. And then tell there are some chaos-worshipping orcs - for what purpose? If they need assistance with that, why say they don't need assistance. If they don't need assistance, why tell about a problem without bragging about how they are able to solve it without assistance?

1: they didn't want to be rude, but mathy has way too many titles
2: He didn't want to imply that the knights where not enough to look after the kingdom, but actally he would really really like anti-demon wards
3: Cant say that the Fay enchantress wants to help with the project, becuse it would imply that the fay enchantress donest already know-how, but the fay enchantress wants to help.
4: cant ask for help with iron orcs, but this is a way to tell mathy about it, and that they are worried without actually asking for help.

cant ask for help with iron ro

fan_of_D_Andreev · Mar 23, 2021

Romv said:
It's interesting, but not interesting enough?

I think it could be very interesting, maybe as interesting as Laurelorn. Maybe too interesting, eve, in a sense that there seems a high chance of some chaos sorcerer or sneaky warband assassinating us, or a whole chaos horde coming to attack the project. Laurelorn seems as safe as it can against chaos assassins because those elves are turtling in a highly magical location for millennia. Maybe worse defence against armies then Karak8Peaks, but better defence against major chaos horde then Kislev, because more allies in between.

Exmorri · Mar 23, 2021

fan_of_D_Andreev said:
What is this? Feigned minute long akward ignoring us to demonstrate their superior status? Seems very weird. Or should we've done something like kneel before them?

fan_of_D_Andreev said:
Right, but his performance was very awkward to me.

Other people have given short summaries, let me try to explain the one point in more detail:
-if the Duke addresses Mathilde wrong, that's a social blunder, he's supposed to use the correct title at all times
-if the Duke has to ask Mathilde for her title, that's a social blunder, he's supposed to know such things (and also he's supposed to address her by her title in order to even ask the question)
-if the Duke doesn't greet Mathilde immediately, that's a social blunder, he's not supposed to leave guests waiting.

But the combination of these three potential social blunders makes it very difficult to deal with weird foreign visitors with multiple titles and uncertain forms of address arriving at a Bretonnian court.
So in order to pretend that none of these things are happening, the Duke has a trustworthy minion ask for Mathilde's title so that he can then pretend to "notice" Mathilde for the first time and greet her "immediately" as soon as he notices her. That's why he pretends to ignore Mathilde until the minion asks for her title.

(take with a pinch of salt as I'm not the QM)

Potus · Mar 23, 2021

Oh God here we go I guess. I am voting based on wanting to interact with new individuals and cultures.

I don't dislike the Dwarfs, but I'm getting bored of the setting and want some excitement.

[X] Carcassone
[X] Kislev
[X] Laurelorn

Artemis1992 · Mar 23, 2021

To be honest, the lack of a boss we can informally share a brandy with completly killed my interest in Carcassone.

T_of_A · Mar 23, 2021

fan_of_D_Andreev said:
The guy says he should speak unrelatedly of other matters they are pressed with and need no mystical assistance because they are able to overcome with thanks to the Lady. And then tell there are some chaos-worshipping orcs - for what purpose? If they need assistance with that, why say they don't need assistance. If they don't need assistance, why tell about a problem without bragging about how they are able to solve it without assistance?

They're sitting on an immovable rod called "chivalry", and they have to squirm around it if they want to move.

Those weird speech patterns and mannerisms are how that manifests in a conversation; the mercenaries thinly disguised as "shepherds" are how that manifests in practical terms.

fan_of_D_Andreev · Mar 23, 2021

Jyn Ryvia said:
1: they didn't want to be rude, but mathy has way too many titles
2: He didn't want to imply that the knights where not enough to look after the kingdom, but actally he would really really like anti-demon wards
3: Cant say that the Fay enchantress wants to help with the project, becuse it would imply that the fay enchantress donest already know-how, but the fay enchantress wants to help.
4: cant ask for help with iron orcs, but this is a way to tell mathy about it, and that they are worried without actually asking for help.

Allright, thanks.

I've misinterpreted his first action as hostile/condecending/arrogant. Hence thought the guy is trolling with some petty mindgames, even on top of some chivalry rules. Allright then. Poor guy, but I dislike any sort of straightly contradictory doublespeak like that, while I like some mystery/mindgames by omission of information and careful phrasing.

Alectai · Mar 23, 2021

[x] Carcassonne

Because the other two frontrunners don't need help and I'd love to see BoneyM's take on Bretonnia

The Phoenixian · Mar 23, 2021

[X] The Grey College
[X] Karak Eight Peaks
[X] Laurelorn
[X] Kislev

Fun and legal skulduggery with the colleges, Dwarven magic and it's attendant magical politics, An Elven Nation seeking its way out of conflict, and attempting to fulfill the plan of Kislev's grand ambitions...

For me it comes down to the plotlines each setting offers, and... I basically like all of them. The only exception being Carcassonne, because the looming potential for Mathilde to acquire Divided Loyalties between her job and her faith doesn't appeal to me. We don't know how BoneyM plans to play it but even just "Your friend is welcome, so long as he does not intend to stay." makes it pretty clear there will be a divide that Mathilde will feel as a Ranaldite.

Sparsebeard · Mar 23, 2021

Such a big project with a huge diplomatic component, I can't help but want Belegar to be the ruler who profits in case of success.

Having elves as collaborators working on a magical project lead by dwarves would be a huge coup for what Belegar is doing at K8P.

[x] Karak Eight Peaks

fan_of_D_Andreev · Mar 23, 2021

Exmorri said:
So in order to pretend that none of these things are happening, the Duke has a trustworthy minion ask for Mathilde's title so that he can then pretend to "notice" Mathilde for the first time and greet her "immediately" as soon as he notices her. That's why he pretends to ignore Mathilde until the minion asks for her title.

Yeah, the problem is that it all seems very weird. Like, he could do some covert research beforehand, like telling guards to ask for our title when admitting us and have information coming to him before we are allowed in his presence. Maybe there is another problem - the guards are not allowed to ask such things from foreign visitors of high status because ???

MooseHowl · Mar 23, 2021

[X] Laurelorn
[X] Kislev

CornyBones · Mar 23, 2021

Artemis1992 said:
To be honest, the lack of a boss we can informally share a brandy with completly killed my interest in Carcassone.

how do you feel about ornate wine-glasses drunk upon balconies?

Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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