There's already an underling management system in the quest that IMO is working fine, I don't see a reason to switch over to some new system.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
There's already an underling management system in the quest that IMO is working fine, I don't see a reason to switch over to some new system.
I think people just mean the basics:
- Will our actions be split by stat?
- Will those actions be mostly be done by advisor except for a small number of personal actions?
- Will there be a focus on the dynasty?
- Will advisors fade into the background of turns outside of interlude arcs?
Edit: Ninja'd never mind, the above is enough of an answer to all the above
then there you go people.
Though I wonder if that actually changed any minds or if it was just being used as an argument tool by those that just didn't like the picks 🤔
- Location
- Canada
[X] Markgraf of Eastern Stirland
[X] Count of Sylvania
[X] Border Princess of the Howling River
[X] Research Sabbatical
[X] Count of Sylvania
[X] Border Princess of the Howling River
[X] Research Sabbatical
with the underlying theme of 'divided loyalty' I dont think the advisors would have ever fallen into the background.
Allow me to quote the very first post in this thread.
I explicitly began this quest as an examination and deconstruction of that structure. I'm not going to heave all of that overboard and start playing it completely straight.
I explicitly began this quest as an examination and deconstruction of that structure. I'm not going to heave all of that overboard and start playing it completely straight.
- Location
- Earth
Yay, we'll get a chance to apply Abelhelms lessons regarding Marshals who undermine the army of Stirland
- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
The only reason I can think of to alter it is verisimilitude: the options that we have for managing our own underlings are pretty direct and straightforward tasks, like "examine this artifact" or "write this paper" or "get in a gyrocopter and shoot something." When we've been an advisor, on the flip side, we had the loop of propose job -> do job -> report on job, with relatively little direction from above on what specifically to do, especially on turns when our report was "yup, still working on it." It would feel a little weird to me to, if we start managing a council of our own, interface with them in a way that feels different from how we have ourselves been interfaced with by Abelhelm and Belegar.
I'm certain there's a way to square the circle here and avoid the relatively passive loop of pick option from list -> that advisor's action is locked until it's done while keeping the feel of being on the other side of the process we have worked within for over thirty turns. I obviously don't want a boring primary quest loop, that's the top priority, but I'd also like to have the feeling of "hrm, this is what it was like to be Abelhelm and give out orders to half-a-dozen persons with unclear skills and loyalties."
- Location
- Oklahoma
I think the common complaint was more 'it will become an empire builder quest' than 'it will turn into a standard CKII system'.
I think it's one and the same really.
A lot of the people that hate the idea of 'empire building' enjoy viewing the cactus farm and doing it up.
I think a lot of people assume the top -> down style when they thing empire building.
Empire building from the POV style of Boney would be very different.
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Most of the possible options will need some sort of change to how the system works, but I'm not going to pop the bonnet and start tinkering until a course is actually locked in.
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
Imagine if we somehow end up taking it and not the job to raise Manndred. Our answering letter will be something like "I'm sorry, your Imperial Highness, but someone left those poor folks in Nachthafen high and dry, and I had to step up. Sorry to bore you with uninteresting details, I'm sure you have no idea what I'm talking about."
- Location
- Earth
No, we'll have a return of this wonderful option from early in the quest:
[ ] Getting To Know You Whether You Like It Or Not: You've been given good reason to mistrust your fellow councillors. Perhaps you should see what they spent their time doing (choose one).
And end the arc with a story for every Stain on our council table.
- Location
- Manchester, UK
- Pronouns
- He/They
And if we're doing so with a full council we'll have 3 non-advisor AP - some of which will likely go into spying on our spymaster to guarantee loyalty.
There's no need to change the structure from what we've got - each turn we give an action from the list of actions they propose (or a write-in) even if they're in the middle of something. But as advisors they'd be doing grander tasks - rather than saying "Look at X minor artifact" we'd be saying "Build me a doom-tower" and expecting them to work out the hows and wheres.
We'd also be expecting more AP to be spent on our assigned task than we have been - we generally give our managed folks a one-AP action to do, while advisors are generally spending 2-4 AP on their job. Which means that what we hear of what they're doing would be a lot less comprehensive - rather than half of a 1AP action we'd be hearing a sixth of a 3 AP action.
If we go Border Princess it almost certainly will. That's kind of the point of being a border princess.
Margraf? I don't think so - there's a very defined territory we're working with. No empire-building, just nation-management.
Swamp Town? Not a clue.
"The cult of Ranald has a very decentralized power structure. I'm afraid that, according to the org chart, none of the other Ranald worshipers are assigned to take orders from me. So sorry."
More practically, no, not anymore than us being a Thane and temporarily in charge of K8P meant K8P was subordinate to the Empire and . It's a question of which hat we wear. Lady Magister Weber can be ordered to do Lady Magister things, but Lady Magister Weber can't be ordered to do High Priestess Weber things, and High Priestess Weber doesn't take orders, period.
I'd say slitting throats is our greatest talent. Even Mathilde says that it's usually the best way she can contribute. Remember when we soloed the Black College?
Knowing that electricity of flowing into a house tells you nothing about what that electricity is being used for.
[X] Ranaldian High Priest of Kislev
👍
[X] The Waystone Project
[x] Ambassador-at-Large to the Karaz Ankor
[x] Bodyguard and Tutor to Prince Mandred
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- Location
- Manchester, UK
- Pronouns
- He/They
For reference, if we were to be managing advisors with our current mechanics, each advisor would take a 1/2 AP from us - which also means we'd get 1/2 AP worth of narrative as to what happened - and output, if doing their job appropriately:
And if that were combined with what we know from our side the options available for task to assign would be based on what they tell us they can do; with write-ins available if we have a better idea, but at the cost of potentially being impossible and/or damaging their loyalty.
Each turn they would come back to us, and we would either tell them to move on to another task or carry on with their current one; while we might well choose to spend personal AP investigating them (we saw Abelhelm do so with both us and the original martial advisor, and I would be unsurprised to hear he did it with every advisor)
And if that were combined with what we know from our side the options available for task to assign would be based on what they tell us they can do; with write-ins available if we have a better idea, but at the cost of potentially being impossible and/or damaging their loyalty.
Each turn they would come back to us, and we would either tell them to move on to another task or carry on with their current one; while we might well choose to spend personal AP investigating them (we saw Abelhelm do so with both us and the original martial advisor, and I would be unsurprised to hear he did it with every advisor)
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You know, with the confirmation from Boney: I'm a lot more interested in Count of Stylana option.
As it's actually the best for research.
The research sabbatical would get the most done in the short run: but only until the money runs out.
But being a countess would mean Taxes for research money. And a job that once settled means we would actually have free time between the vampire/undead/orc/Beastmen attacks.
As it's actually the best for research.
The research sabbatical would get the most done in the short run: but only until the money runs out.
But being a countess would mean Taxes for research money. And a job that once settled means we would actually have free time between the vampire/undead/orc/Beastmen attacks.
There is nothing stopping alliances/voting blocs from forming in a direct democracy. Indeed, vote trading has been attempted several times, but BoneyM discourages it. I think it has more to do with the lack of perpetual issues and lack of incentive to go through the trouble, so people just respect the QM's wishes.
- Location
- Earth
As a new Countess we could use our Dwarf Favour and Boon to have the Dwarves build us infrastructure for our land.
It'd be a nice investment in the future of our new land and most importantly not a price the Dwarves have to pay in blood.
Darth.
Definitely a heretic
- Location
- The Restaurant at the End of the Universe
We could do that but better as Markgraf though
Actually we'd have better subordinates we could delegate to as the Markgraf rather than a lowly Countess since as I said before, everyone from the Colleges to the Emperor to Roswita have incentive to see Sylvania completely pacified and will likely send people our way. It also gives us more money and autonomy as well as a larger area to research in. Frankly the only reason to take Countess over Markgraf is if you're willing to lose autonomy and the freedom to delegate in favour of an inheritance title.
ya, I'm changing my vote. even if I think its a bit too late for it.
Count of Sylvania is the best long term action for personal actions between the job. (a combination of freedom to do as well like and only having to manage as smaller, comparatively stable (to the border princes) relm and would only need a small council (1-3 advisors tops)
[X] Markgraf of Eastern Stirland
A Markgraf exists to transform troublesome land into a land of productive and obedient tax-payers, usually after said land has been conquered. Historically, it also apparently exists to create rivals to the Elector Count that appointed them, which is probably why the letter made it so clear that no inheritable position would accompany the title of Markgraf. It still remains a position of extreme power, prestige, and influence, second only to the Elector Counts themselves. And it would be quite a feather in your cap if you could one day boast to have pacified Sylvania.
[X] Count of Sylvania
Or you could go even further with House Weber and turn them - well, turn you - into proper aristocracy. One slice of Sylvania would be significantly easier to pacify than its entirety, and rulership in this corner of the world seems to have worked out quite well for the former Countess of Nachthafen.
[X] Border Princess of the Howling River
With Karak Vlag returned, the only pass through the World's Edge Mountains that is not dominated by an existing Dwarfhold is Mad Dog Pass. It seems that Barak Varr wants to change that. Many have tried to make something useful of the sprawling, anarchic lands known as the Border Princes over the year, and one of the few times it was managed was almost two thousand years ago, when Emperor Sigismund the Conquerer established the province of Lichtenberg. With Dwarven support, perhaps you can follow in his footsteps.
Darth.
Definitely a heretic
- Location
- The Restaurant at the End of the Universe
This isn't the lock-in vote though. We already know what we'd be doing as a Countess - it's Markgraf that may have some interesting duties.
I don't disagree, but I also think we would have a bit more free actions and more downtime as a Countess.
as a countess you have to look after your own shit, and if your shit is in order, your good.
dude, I'm on team Markgraf (before there was a team Markgraf)
but I'm just pointing out that there is an up-side to countess over it, and that is more personal actions.
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- Location
- Manchester, UK
- Pronouns
- He/They
Ideally I'd want at minimum a Learning Advisor that was a wizard we could put on some of our research actions, a Piety Advisor that was an open-minded (probably either Ranaldite or local) priest for theological research, and a Diplomacy Advisor because it's our weak-point and we need someone to persuade our new subjects to accept us rather than just fear us.
While a normal count at that level would stand no chance of getting wizard+caster-priest as advisors I think that Mathilde might manage it from her personal prestige making the position more attractive.
EDIT: Of course the more competent the advisor we want, the more compromises to divided loyalties we're likely to have to make.
And, well, if we have a council with empty spots there will be people trying to get themselves or their patsies into that council - some of whom might be significant enough that we'd do well to listen to their requests.
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