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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Goldfish said:
I don't know the lore of Planetos very well, so this speculation might be completely off base or I might be rehashing already known stuff;

I cannot see how the people of Lhazaar, their culture or their religion, could have actually formed into a coherent and self-sustaining whole that has managed to survive into the present, not in Essos or on Planetos in general, without enjoying the protection of a much more powerful society for a significant length of time, one willing to kick people's faces in when needed.

Do we know how long they have existed as a people? Who protected them while their culture and religion gelled into its current form?
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Basically the only reason is the whims of their predators. A wolf knows you don't slaughter the entire herd at once. If you do, come next winter there are no sheep to be had. You only take a few at a time and let them replenish their numbers.
 
Goldfish said:
I don't know the lore of Planetos very well, so this speculation might be completely off base or I might be rehashing already known stuff;

I cannot see how the people of Lhazaar, their culture or their religion, could have actually formed into a coherent and self-sustaining whole that has managed to survive into the present, not in Essos or on Planetos in general, without enjoying the protection of a much more powerful society for a significant length of time, one willing to kick people's faces in when needed.

Do we know how long they have existed as a people? Who protected them while their culture and religion gelled into its current form?
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The only thing I can come up with is that they were a buffer state between Valyria and Qarth for so long that they stopped needing to defend themselves in any way or form, as the only two polities who could have attacked them very much did not want to start a war with each other by stomping around in the demilitarzied zone. They later survived by selling themselves piecemeal to Slavers Bay and the Dothraki as tribute.

The core problem is that wholly pacifistic societies don't exist in reality. They are a staple of fantasy, as their hat is widely known and recognizable, but that doesn't mean that they work out once you try to integrate them more then superfluously into a wider context. Also, as we know, GRRM has made some generally rather questionable world-building choices. Looking at you, knights of the Vale!
 
Azel said:
The only thing I can come up with is that they were a buffer state between Valyria and Qarth for so long that they stopped needing to defend themselves in any way or form, as the only two polities who could have attacked them very much did not want to start a war with each other by stomping around in the demilitarzied zone. They later survived by selling themselves piecemeal to Slavers Bay and the Dothraki as tribute.

The core problem is that wholly pacifistic societies don't exist in reality. They are a staple of fantasy, as their hat is widely known and recognizable, but that doesn't mean that they work out once you try to integrate them more then superfluously into a wider context. Also, as we know, GRRM has made some generally rather questionable world-building choices. Looking at you, knights of the Vale!
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There is another example, Naath. But even that didn't work out. Slavers had a field day with people who refused to fight back. The only reason they weren't completely wiped out was because killer butterflies. They had to rely on something else to do the killing for them instead of learning to defend themselves. Thank god the newer generations of Naath are less pacifistic than their elders.
 
Duesal said:
That's why pacifism is dumb when you have loved ones to protect. Either you just watch them be murdered or you do something about it. You can run away, or you can stand and fight. You don't just abandon your family to their fate and then tell the survivors there was nothing to be done.

It's very telling that she's outsourced protection to warriors. She's not willing to get her hands dirty but she knows hands have to get dirty for her own safety.
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The whole Religion would make a lot more sense if her people had warriors to outsource the fighting too.

Peaceful religions work, you can have pacifistmonks for example, if most people in the same country are not pacifist monks. But in Lhazaar they seem to be.
 
Artemis1992 said:
The whole Religion would make a lot more sense if her people had warriors to outsource the fighting too.

Peaceful religions work, you can have pacifistmonks for example, if most people in the same country are not pacifist monks. But in Lhazaar they seem to be.
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See, that I'd have far less issue with. It's one thing if you decide to go off and be a pacifist monk. It's completely different if your religion actively encourages you, a normal person, to never defend yourself.
 
Lhazar is arguably needed for the entire economy of slaver's bay to function. When you go up the chain of "where does the money and manpower come from, who trades with who", you generally eventually get slaves bought from the Dothraki, who take a lot of them from Lhazar. In canon, we even see Khal Drogo explicitly use raiding parts of Lhazar as an easy way to get some wealth when he's in need of sudden cash.

On the other hand, we don't see much of Lhazar in canon, and when we do see it there are people who try to fight back against raids. They just lose hard.
I've always suspected that they were militarily weak and poorly organised, but that complete pacifism was for total zealots. Local militias and stuff would likely be poorly regarded, but probably do exist. They're just poorly armed and lose a lot whenever a strong force like Drogo's recordbreaking khalasar rolls in, and in peacetime they get shit-talked by the priesthood a lot.
 
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It boils down to knowing where the split is between what the religion preaches and what the average follower does. A lot of real-life religions abhor violence to one degree or another, but that rarely if ever meant their adherents actually practiced what they preached. If all else fails, you invent a double standard where it is an unthinkable act to hurt a fellow believer, but the evil, soulless foreigner should be skinned alive and fed to the pigs.
 
This is the Satine Kryze situation all over again.

(For those that don't know, in Star Wars: Clone Wars she's a pacifist that won't even shoot a terrorist with a bomb on her own spaceship.)
 
[X] Plan Farewell Speech
-[X] Get yourself a glass of Dawn Fruit mead before entering the small stage before the eastern wing of the palace. This is a less formal setting and speech.
-[X] "My vassals. But also my allies and my friends. And strangers of course, who may soon be counted among them. I raise my glass on you, for it would be a lonely day in a much smaller abode, were it not for you."
-[X] "I hope you find the food and drink to your liking, and may the alchemists kindness find you in a glass near your bed in the morrow."
-[X] "For once, I have no grand proclamations or dire portends to share with you. Tonight, all I have to say to you is 'be merry'."
-[X] "It is hard to do and I myself find it an almost impossible task, but once in a while we all need a carefree moment of respite. A moment when we do not feel the weight of our crowns and the dread of wars fought and to be fought. A moment in which we allow ourselves to relax and to gather the strength necessary for the days to come."
-[X] "So let us drink together on this moment of rest and peace. May it feel like a lifetime and may our worries be far while it lasts."
-[X] Drink
-[X] "Sadly though, as I say this, others already had to move on to the next task and for me comes the time to join them. The rebels in the west have to be dealt with. So, for now, farewell I say. May we see each other after the first dawn of the Imperium."
-[X] Turn into a dragon and fly up until you leave the wards and can Teleport to the command post in Westhaven.

Need to finish later. Hand.
 
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Crake said:
Egoo doesn't update anything, don't be silly.
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Nuh-uh, I do too!
Just, you know. Late.

RAs updated with those two ya wrote up Crake.
Also map post has Azel's latest political map embedded.

[X] Azel

Can't do anything productive, as am still fucked, so update stuff in-quest instead :V
 
"Drink and be merry, then drink some more, for the Imperium does not stop at conquering of city-states, nations, or even entire species. Rejoice and rest easy with the knowledge that the dreaded 'hangover' has fallen, this time beneath the soft leather slippers of our Alchemists rather than the ironshod boots of the Legion."

[X] Azel
 
On the matter of Lhazar pacifism it is helpful to consider the gradient that your three guests exemplify:
  1. Sira: She is not just a high priestess, she is a spellcaster, a literal saint of the religion, she is held to the highest ideal of her faith. If she were faced with say a party of slavers, she would try to escape, she might even use spells that leave no lasting damage, like I don't know sleep or dazzling, that sort of thing. She would not however use magic that does HP damage or leaves any lasting harm, like a curse or blindness
  2. Hizdak: He is a merchant, a member of the elite and a man of faith, he would pick up a weapon to fight slavers or bandits on the road, but he would do penance afterwards if he killed someone
  3. Nindel: Well they don't call him half-Dothraki for nothing, he lives on the fringes of society and in a violent trade. He would shoot an enemy dead in the face and then maybe toss a ritual apology over his corpse
All three of these people can work together, knowing what they are Sira may regret than there is need for men like Nindel but she does not abandon her principles and her way of life because she is supposed to lead by example, even if it is not one most people can live up to
 
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DragonParadox said:
Sira: She is not just a high priestess, she is a spellcaster, a literal saint of the religion, she is held to the highest ideal of her faith. If she were faced with say a party of slavers, she would try to escape, she might even use spells that leave no lasting damage, like I don't know sleep or dazzling, that sort of thing. She would not however use magic that does HP damage or leaves any lasting harm, like a curse or blindness
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Do her religion have exceptions for fighting things like undead? Because at least in DnD, most such oaths have exceptions for things like undead and constructs, are she allowed to fight the hungry dead, or is even fighting that which is not alive against her religion?

Basically is her religion ban on fighting like vow-of-peace or is it even more restrictive than that.
 
tarrangar said:
Do her religion have exceptions for fighting things like undead? Because at least in DnD, most such oaths have exceptions for things like undead and constructs, are she allowed to fight the hungry dead, or is even fighting that which is not alive against her religion?

Basically is her religion ban on fighting like vow-of-peace or is it even more restrictive than that.
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That is actually a bit of a moral dilemma for her upon reaching SD. You see until she got here she thought all undead were just voracious or mindless monsters so yes she could kill them fine, the same way she does not agonize about the pathogens she kills when curing an illness. But she recently found out sentient and even sane undead are a thing, those are obviously people and thus under her religion brothers and sisters under the stars.
 
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DragonParadox said:
That is actually a bit of a moral dilemma for her upon reaching SD. You see until she got here she thought all undead were just voracious or mindless monsters so yes she could kill them fine, the same way she does not agonize about the pathogens she kills when curing an illness, but she recently found out sentient and even sane undead are a thing, those are obviously people and thus under her religion brothers and sisters under the stars.
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Wait till she meets Qyburn.
 
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