That is on me then, sorry. :oops:

I was kind of rushing this morning and did not read the discussion as much as I should
Eh. I read the whole discussion and I'm not sure what you apparently got wrong.

On the other hand, I'm not too sure what exactly Jola Daa is afraid of. Forcible conversion by the Red Priests? Direct attacks by the Red God's angels?
IMO if she's afraid of forcible conversion by mortal worshippers, we should reassure her the same way we reassure the Westerosi: don't worry, I'm not faithful to R'hllor, I'll totally keep them in check if they start breaking Imperial Law. After all, what's the point of being King if you let a God boss you around?

I wonder if she knows that we aren't explicitly claiming to be Azor Ahai? Maybe she thinks we're completely in bed with the Red Cult and will be spreading it everywhere as a way to consolidate Imperial power.
 
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Eh. I read the whole discussion and I'm not sure what you apparently got wrong.

On the other hand, I'm not too sure what exactly Jola Daa is afraid of. Forcible conversion by the Red Priests? Direct attacks by the Red God's angels?
IMO if she's afraid of forcible conversion by mortal worshippers, we should reassure her the same way we reassure the Westerosi: don't worry, I'm not a believer, I'll totally keep them in check if they start breaking Imperial Law. After all, what's the point of being King if you let a God boss you around?

She seems broadly afraid of the red god himself, she has clearly had a bad interaction with him.
 
Eh. I read the whole discussion and I'm not sure what you apparently got wrong.
The point was specifically that the nature of man is unchanging, but instead we kept talking about superficial matters such as culture and contradicting ourselves.

Viserys: "You can not change the nature of man."
Summer Islanders: "But you changed their culture. Gotcha!"
Viserys: "Oh, I totally did! Seems I'm talking out of my ass."
 
Eh. I read the whole discussion and I'm not sure what you apparently got wrong.

On the other hand, I'm not too sure what exactly Jola Daa is afraid of. Forcible conversion by the Red Priests? Direct attacks by the Red God's angels?
IMO if she's afraid of forcible conversion by mortal worshippers, we should reassure her the same way we reassure the Westerosi: don't worry, I'm not faithful to R'hllor, I'll totally keep them in check if they start breaking Imperial Law. After all, what's the point of being King if you let a God boss you around?

I wonder if she knows that we aren't explicitly claiming to be Azor Ahai? Maybe she thinks we're completely in bed with the Red Cult and will be spreading it everywhere as a way to consolidate Imperial power.
It seems to me that she is concerned about R'hllor universalist ambitions, among other things.
"I have seen the Red God through the mind of his faithful. I know why he seeks to consume the souls of men as kindling for his fire," the sorceress replied, a whispering wind swirling around her like a mantle. "The greatest evils are born of a desire to do good, that makes them all the more terrible for it."
 
I think the thing she's afraid of is the fact that, you know, R'hllor domain consist of Slavery and Fire.

On general, two concepts that should not be together.
 
Yeah. I have no idea how to go on from here. Partially because I deeply resent what we actually ended up saying, which is pretty much a 180° turn from what I intended.

We just argued like every other idiot trying to create the New Soviet Man, Homo Economicus, the Superior Aryan, or whatever other delusions your particular idiology comes with.
 
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Yeah. I have no idea how to go on from here. Partially because I deeply resent what we actually ended up saying, which is pretty much a 180° turn from what I intended.

We just argued like every other idiot trying to create the New Soviet Man, Homo Economicus, the Superior Aryan, or whatever other delusions your particular idiology comes with.

I still have a bit of time to edit.

I'll retcon, it's only fair since the trouble was caused by a misunderstanding on my part
 
@DragonParadox, if I may:
His sorceress bride took a slightly more skeptical approach to the whole thing. "And yet you change them, the people upon these shores are not as you have found them, much less the ones who came here," she replied thoughtfully. "Even the tongues of their forefathers melt into the bubbling cauldron of trade tongue, every man as a sailor or innkeeper in his own home, the young learning in your schools, the local notables bound to the crimson ribbons of your administrators."

"We are all changed by the circumstances of our lives and the structures of the law," Varys' familiar replied. "I was changed by my exile into a land of foreign laws and customs, where men were not subjects to a king, but citizens under the law, changed for the better I would say for certain." That had the ring of iron hard truth, a truth that stood against the fires of their common nature that demanded ultimate submission perhaps, but all the harder for it, as finest steel was forged in hottest flame.
"But what you talk about is merely the expression of who they are, not their nature itself. A good man will be a good man, no matter the tongue he speaks, and a wicked man will be a wicked man, no matter if he drapes himself in precious silk or rough furs."
This time is was the prince Yanda Zaq who replied, "When the men of Ghis and later those of Valyria came to our shores we traded with them in peace and it was good for us and good for them, yet when the next came they found it better suited them to give nothing and take much, even onto the lives of our ancestors carried away in chains. It was only when we gave onto them the bright feathered gifts of the goldenheart bow that they came to respect us again and traded in peace once more. You may have put the chain of law upon the necks of slavers, but does not change them, only bind."

"Their sons and daughters will, for this will be the world into which they are born. No chain will they see, but only the common decency that all those who reason should show each other." Viserys answered swiftly. "Even those who by falling of their own inner selves might be inclined to dark dealings will be constrained not only by law, but by the ire of their peers over such things."
"Indeed. It does not. It stands to hope that they will change in time. Or their children after them. Though it would be folly to imagine that the darker urges in mans nature can be fully banished. The law will always have to remain. It will always have to bind those that seek to harm their fellow man and always have to protect those who can not do so themselves."
 
Yeah. I have no idea how to go on from here. Partially because I deeply resent what we actually ended up saying, which is pretty much a 180° turn from what I intended.

We just argued like every other idiot trying to create the New Soviet Man, Homo Economicus, the Superior Aryan, or whatever other delusions your particular idiology comes with.
This feel unfair. Nothing that we just argued is new. It's all stuff that's come up a lot IC and in the thread in the past:
  • The part about "we can't change who they are but we can change their incentives to change how they act" is literally the justification you used to give when people were afraid of hiring devils
  • The part about "their children will be different from them" is literally said IC every time there's an argument about nobility - Viserys acknowledges that it'll be gradual, but he still hopes that it'll work

However @DragonParadox, one thing that seems very weird is "We are all changed by the circumstances of our lives and the structures of the law" which is followed by a paragraph in which he suggests that people don't change. That definitely needs clarifying.
Maybe suggest that we're specifically talking about changing their behaviors and expectation?
 
This feel unfair. Nothing that we just argued is new. It's all stuff that's come up a lot IC and in the thread in the past:
  • The part about "we can't change who they are but we can change their incentives to change how they act" is literally the justification you used to give when people were afraid of hiring devils
  • The part about "their children will be different from them" is literally said IC every time there's an argument about nobility - Viserys acknowledges that it'll be gradual, but he still hopes that it'll work

However @DragonParadox, one thing that seems very weird is "We are all changed by the circumstances of our lives and the structures of the law" which is followed by a paragraph in which he suggests that people don't change. That definitely needs clarifying.
Maybe suggest that we're specifically talking about changing their behaviors and expectation?
I'm not arguing anything different here though? What vexes me so much here is that nature and culture are conflated.

The "we can't change who they are but we can change their incentives to change how they act" is exactly what I want to express here. Talking about how we changed their culture and thus changed them as highly disingenuous and ultimately self-defeating.

As for the second point, see my post above.
 
Through Familiar Eyes

Thirtieth Day of the Fourth Month 294 AC

Intellectually, Varys understood why her familiar was playing this game. On some level she could play it as well as he, for they were one in mind and magic. But they were also different, one a man who would be dragon the other a snake and snakes were by their nature startlingly direct beings.

"I have found it to be the most important part in ruling over such diverse people to accept that they are thus and that deep in their hearts, they will always be different from each other. Too many rulers fancy themselves as the masters of their subjects and that they can shape their very souls with their acts, yet even as the centuries grind their palaces to dust and eventually extinguish the very culture that brought them forth, people have remained people."

She thus found it to be quite amusing to feel the ripple of deception within Viserys' thoughts like a seed planted deep in fertile soil. Many mages thought it was the serpent's long association with treachery that made those who chose them as familiar more skilled liars. In truth it was the opposite. Snakes did not lie, and so they spotted the lies in the minds of their bonded most keenly. In knowing how not to deceive themselves, they polished their art to a finer sheen when it came to the rest of the world. Case in point, the rapt expression on the face of the Lord of Last Lament.

His sorceress bride took a slightly more skeptical approach to the whole thing. "And yet you change them. The people upon these shores are not as you have found them, much less the ones who came here," she replied thoughtfully. "Even the tongues of their forefathers melt into the bubbling cauldron of trade tongue, every man as a sailor or innkeeper in his own home, the young learning in your schools, the local notables bound to the crimson ribbons of your administrators."

"We are all changed by the circumstances of our lives and the structures of the law," Varys' familiar replied. "I was changed by my exile into a land of foreign laws and customs, where men were not subjects to a king, but citizens under the law. Changed for the better, I would say for certain." That had the ring of iron hard truth, perhaps a truth that stood against the fires of their common nature that demanded ultimate submission, but all the harder for it, as finest steel was forged in hottest flame.

He uttered words smooth as honeyed wine and just as enticing as the priestess seemed content in the reply. "Take the former slavers living in my realm. I have no illusion that they suddenly found respect for their fellow mans' life and freedoms. Some of them always had it and you can tell them apart by how they treated those deemed property by their culture with kindness and dignity, while others will always lack it, even if they were not so callous and cruel that justice demanded dark fates for them. But as I know that they will always desire to dominate, to rule and to gain power with little regard for others, I can temper them. Divert their urges to where they have to do good to achieve their desires. Where the best way to gain the influence and prestige they crave is to better the lives of those around them."

This time is was the prince Yanda Zaq who replied, "When the men of Ghis and later those of Valyria came to our shores, we traded with them in peace and it was good for us and good for them, yet when they next came they found it better suited them to give nothing and take much, even unto the lives of our ancestors carried away in chains. It was only when we gave unto them the bright feathered gifts of the goldenheart bow that they came to respect us again and traded in peace once more. You may have put the chain of law upon the necks of slavers, but does not change them, only bind."

"Their sons and daughters will, for this will be the world into which they are born. No chain will they see, but only the common decency that all those who reason should show each other." Viserys answered swiftly. "Even those who by failing of their own inner selves might be inclined to dark dealings will be constrained not only by law, but by the ire of their peers over such things."

"And yet there is a kind of slavery that law alone cannot forbid lightly, one that is still passed down by parents to their children, by those in crimson to the faithful who heed their words and brand their souls in slavery eternal." Jola Daa's eyes glowed faintly green like moonlight seen though thin leaves. "I have seen it upon them, the good as much as the wicked, all bound to the path without end, the wheel ever-turning. Him I fear more than any mortal slaver and He is mighty indeed in your realm."

All souls bound to the wheel, Varys recalled memories not her own of a place outside of time. She saw deeply and she saw true, but she had never been given the chance to see as much as Varys and her familiar had. Daring akin to madness, perhaps, but it had served them well. And so Viserys answered, words soft but sure, "Even the gods are people in their own sense."

He let the words sink in a moment, enough for an incredulous reply to form in the mind, but not fall from the lips.

"They too have their natures and desires, and they too can be bargained with. I have found that for most faiths that the cruelest and most deplorable acts committed in their names spring not from doctrine and dogma, but from the desires of those seeking to gain dominance through the trapping of faiths. Rare is the faith where the rot comes from the gods themselves, and those have no place in this realm. For all others, though, common ground can be found and conflict mediated. Have you seen the Temple of Unity during the parade? It is a monument to that ideal. That even the gods of water and fire, death and life, nature and man can coexist. That the gods too can put their differences aside for a greater goal that they share."

"I have seen the Red God through the mind of his faithful. I know why he seeks to consume the souls of men as kindling for his fire," the sorceress replied, a whispering wind swirling around her like a mantle. "The greatest evils are born of a desire to do good. That makes them all the more terrible for it."

This was no abstract pronouncement, no dogma passed down through the teachings of the Tall Trees, Varys saw. No, this was a pain that still flared bright in the mind, a scar only half-healed.

What do you reply?

[] Write in

OOC: You do not get as high level as Jola Daa is without conflict, and in her case some of that conflict was with red priests. I rolled that way back when she was first conceived of. Also yes, Varys thinks of Viserys as 'familiar' because why not, it is descriptive of their relationship.
Made some additional edits to the chapter, DP.

Haha, I love this POV, dude. Varys' perspective is always fun, but this one really stole the show.
Intellectually, Varys understood why her familiar was playing this game.
The first line was just perfect. Reminds me of those times a while back where I argued for Pseudodragon Scholarium students being able to have Humans as their Familiar. 🤓
 
Travelers' Ways

Thirtieth Day of the Fourth Month 294 AC

Dany enjoyed the food and she enjoyed the lights, and she especially enjoyed seeing her mother so filled with the wonder and the beauty of her art, a dragon-speaker in full, but there was only so long you could sit back and drink in the ambiance, which is to say gloat that the day had finally come. There were people to meet and things to see, there were visitors to greet and she was a princess of the Imperium. It was among her duties to make these folk feel at ease and learn of them. After all, Viserys could not be everywhere, much as he tried.

So while her bother went to talk philosophy with their guests from the south, she set her eyes on those from the west. She had always been curious about the men of Lhazar, if not perhaps for reasons they would find flattering. Dany could understand in the abstract why you might want to be a pacifist. Even after all the battles she had fought and all the blood she had shed, she could still recall the horror she had felt four and a half years ago in the gardens of Wind House on hearing the screams of the man she had cursed with agony.

That she could wrap her head around, to be a pacifist for the sake of your own peace of mind, be a hermit in the woods living off nuts and truffles while avoiding those folk who would wish to do you harm rather than fight. But how could you be a pacifist around other people you cared about? How did one go about sacrificing kith and kin upon the altars of peace and the bloody blades of your enemies while you stood by never having prepared for the day? Dany was uneasily aware that she could understand the Dothraki doing the looting and the killing better than the Lhazareen who did not fight back as they should.

Of course, one could not walk up to foreign envoys and say, 'Hello, my name is Daenerys Targaryen and I think your philosophy is filled with enough shit to fertilize all of Dorne', but she was skilled in the shaping of words and gestures, by magic granted insight, by memory, and by experience hard earned. The young princess had learned how to ingratiate herself to others. Even better, she had found that in recent months it had gotten marginally easier to just be herself rather than hide behind a mask wrought of 'childish charm'.

Maybe it was just that she was tall for her age, or maybe like Nindel maz Nua, people were just more used to youthful seeming immortals and treated her like one of them. Granted, having each of her words weighed for fey pacts was odd, but she would take it over the alternative.

Dany quickly arranged for the three to move into rooms in the palace along with the other delegations, much to the hidden relief of the merchant Hizdak, who had likely not anticipated the costs of living in Sorcerer's Deep when he had budgeted his stay. She spent quite a bit of time happily talking of new roads and seaborne trade divined to see its destination. There was a bit of unease there, since prophecy was sacred to the Lhazareen, but the priestess quickly cleared it up by pointing out that the Great Shepherd wanted his children to be prosperous and content in their lives. If parting the veil of the future would lead to that, then it would be counted a good thing.

One could practically see the wheels moving around in the merchant's head at this particular theological proclamation. Still, as amusing as this was, Dany was still curious and she was bad about holding in questions. "What does He say about driving other perils to the people?"

Sirra gave her a piercing look. She had likely guessed Dany's thought, but still her tone was gentle when she replied. "Famine, plague, and the comings of the restless dead, all these we are called to foretell so that the people may ward it off, but we are no battle seers to read the future in the blood of our foes and so the Men of Ghis take advantage of this, driven by the whips of devils. This is no fault of the Great Shepherd, but of the broken world in which we live. You would not find a tree under which you shelter for the night at fault because it cannot warn you of wolves prowling as the barking of a dog might. Faith should unite us all brothers under the stars. I have dedicated my life to it, and leave dealing with earthly matters to those better equipped to do so."

She looked somberly at her two companions and sighed. "The world is a broken place and it breaks all of us in the end, but in praising the Shepherd we might at least remember what it is to be whole."

Dany still did not agree, but she could at least understand.

OOC: And here we are, in what might be the final update of the day, a bit of world-building and a bit of characterization for Dany.
Made some minor edits to the chapter, DP.
 
Yeah. I have no idea how to go on from here. Partially because I deeply resent what we actually ended up saying, which is pretty much a 180° turn from what I intended.

We just argued like every other idiot trying to create the New Soviet Man, Homo Economicus, the Superior Aryan, or whatever other delusions your particular idiology comes with.
At first I didn't quite get that read on it, though some of that could be because I just woke up and starting reading the chapter while my eyes and brain were still a bit fuzzy.

On further thought and after another look at it, I can see where you're coming from. Glad DP is doing a retcon to more clearly follow the intended plan.
 
"I changed nothing at the heart of it," came the reply, unwavering. Upon other lips Varys might have called it humble, but he did not think that could be farther from the truth. "What you speak of is merely the expression of who they are, not their nature itself. A good man will be a good man, no matter the tongue he speaks, and a wicked man will be a wicked man, no matter if he drapes himself in precious silk or rough furs."
This should be italicized.
 
Through Familiar Eyes

Thirtieth Day of the Fourth Month 294 AC

Intellectually, Varys understood why her familiar was playing this game, on some level she could play it as well as he, for they were one in mind and magic. But they were also different, one a man who would be dragon, the other a snake, and snakes were by their nature startlingly direct beings.

"I have found it to be the most important part in ruling over such diverse people to accept that they are thus, and that deep in their hearts, they will always be different from one other. Too many rulers fancy themselves as the masters of their subjects and that they can shape their very souls with their acts, yet even as the centuries grind their palaces to dust and eventually extinguish the very culture that brought them forth, people have remained people."

She thus found it to be quite amusing to feel the ripple of deception within Viserys' thoughts, like a seed planted deep in fertile soil. Many mages thought it was the serpent's long association with treachery that made those who chose them as familiar more skilled liars. In truth it was the opposite. Snakes did not lie, and so they spotted the lies in the minds of their bonded most keenly. In knowing how not to deceive themselves, they polished their art to a finer sheen when it came to the rest of the world. Case in point, the rapt expression on the face of the Lord of Last Lament.

His sorceress bride took a slightly more skeptical approach to the whole thing. "And yet you change them. The people upon these shores are not as you have found them, much less the ones who came here," she replied thoughtfully. "Even the tongues of their forefathers melt into the bubbling cauldron of trade tongue. Every man as a sailor or innkeeper in his own home, the young learning in your schools, the local notables bound to the crimson ribbons of your administrators."

"I changed nothing at the heart of it," came the reply, unwavering. Upon other lips, Varys might have called it humble, but she did not think that could be farther from the truth. "What you speak of is merely the expression of who they are, not their nature itself. A good man will be a good man, no matter the tongue he speaks, and a wicked man will be a wicked man, no matter if he drapes himself in precious silk or rough furs."

He paused and took a drink of tea, not for thirst but for effect. "Take the former slavers living in my realm. I have no illusion that they suddenly found respect for the lives and freedoms of their fellow men. Some of them always had it and you can tell them apart by how they treated those deemed property by their culture with kindness and dignity, while others will always lack it, even if they were not so callous and cruel that justice demanded dark fates for them. But as I know that they will always desire to dominate, to rule and to gain power with little regard for others, I can temper them. Divert their urges to where they have to do good to achieve their desires. Where the best way to gain the influence and prestige they crave is to better the lives of those around them."

This time is was the prince Yanda Zaq who replied, "When the men of Ghis and later those of Valyria came to our shores, we traded with them in peace and it was good for us and good for them, yet when they next came they found it better suited them to give nothing and take much, even unto the lives of our ancestors carried away in chains. It was only when we gave unto them the bright feathered gifts of the goldenheart bow that they came to respect us again and traded in peace once more. You may have put the chain of law upon the necks of slavers, but I ask you how long can it be expected to last if in their hearts they still hold the same twisted will?"

"It will endure so long as the name Imperium has any meaning at all." For a moment Viserys' thoughts flew to distant realms and far off years, so swift that even Varys could not follow it. "It stands to hope that they will change in time. Or their children after them. Though it would be folly to imagine that the darker urges in man's nature can be fully banished. The law will always have to remain. It will always have to bind those that seek to harm their fellow man, and always have to protect those who can not do so themselves."

"And yet there is a kind of slavery that law alone cannot lightly forbid, one that is still passed down by parents to their children, by those in crimson to the faithful who heed their words and brand their souls in slavery eternal." Jola Daa's eyes glowed faintly green like moonlight seen though thin leaves. "I have seen it upon them. The good as much as the wicked, all bound to the path without end, the wheel ever-turning. Him I fear more than any mortal slaver, and He is mighty indeed in your realm."

All souls bound to the wheel, Varys recalled memories not her own of a place outside of time. She saw deeply and she saw true, but she had never been given the chance to see as much as Varys and her familiar had. Daring akin to madness perhaps, but it had served them well. And so Viserys answered, words soft but sure, "Even the gods are people in their own sense."

He let the words sink in a moment, enough for an incredulous reply to form in the mind, but not fall from the lips.

"They too have their natures and desires, and they too can be bargained with. I have found that for most faiths that the cruelest and most deplorable acts committed in their names spring not from doctrine and dogma, but from the desires of those seeking to gain dominance through the trapping of faiths. Rare is the faith where the rot comes from the gods themselves, and those have no place in this realm. For all others, however, common ground can be found and conflict mediated. Have you seen the Temple of Unity during the parade? It is a monument to that ideal. That even the gods of water and fire, death and life, nature and man can coexist. That the gods too can put aside their differences for a greater goal that they share."

"I have seen the Red God through the mind of his faithful. I know why he seeks to consume the souls of men as kindling for his fire," the sorceress replied, a whispering wind swirling around her like a mantle. "The greatest evils are born of a desire to do good, that makes them all the more terrible for it."

This was no abstract pronouncement, no dogma passed down through the teachings of the Tall Trees, Varys saw. No, this was a pain that still flared bright in the mind, a scar only half-healed.

"Despair, seeing the path bleak and without hope, can all too easily make monsters," Viserys agreed somberly. "Yet while one still walks another path may open before the traveler's feet. I ask again, have you seen the Temple of Unity, spoken to the priests there? That is my hope for the gods of the realm, just as the road new built is my hope for the trader and the forges my hope for the smith."

"I... I have not seen it. We shall speak again when I know more of this, lest I speak in ignorance,"
the reply was slightly shaky in that way that thankfully neither the mouths of snakes nor dragons were made to show. It was also sincere, she thought.

So it was that Viserys Targaryen rose from his seat and bid his farewells, turning instead to the crowd at large for one last speech before war took hold in the west.

What do you say?

[] Write in

OOC: Edits done. Hopefully this works better with the intent of the vote.
Made some minor edits to the chapter, DP.
 
I thought the priestess was afraid that rholler literally wants to envelop everything. What has that got to do with the nature of man.
 
Tldr gods also have their own nature, and in spite of her fears R'hllor can and has been bargained with and is willing to work alongside other gods.
To be fair to her, her fears are pretty much R'hllor original plan (and current back-up plan if the Imperium fails). It's less that she is wrong and more that her information is out of date.
 
I gotta admit that I don't get the Lhazaaren's argument.

Is she saying that the Shepherd and his priests should not intervene in mattersof war because that's not his Domain?
If so that's fair, but it would also mean that the Lamb People need a proper faith for War or Protection, rather than have the majority of the people follow the Shepherd.

You can have a faith that commands you to ignore vtial parts of life, but not as your only major faith.
 
To be fair to her, her fears are pretty much R'hllor original plan (and current back-up plan if the Imperium fails). It's less that she is wrong and more that her information is out of date.
She's right to be afraid. It's just that Viserys is one of the only people alive who could pull off bargaining with R'hllor.
 
Viserys also plans to do some other things, but telling her how we want to usurp the gods and install ourselves above them might be taken a tad... badly...
 
I gotta admit that I don't get the Lhazaaren's argument.

Is she saying that the Shepherd and his priests should not intervene in mattersof war because that's not his Domain?
If so that's fair, but it would also mean that the Lamb People need a proper faith for War or Protection, rather than have the majority of the people follow the Shepherd.

You can have a faith that commands you to ignore vtial parts of life, but not as your only major faith.
That's why pacifism is dumb when you have loved ones to protect. Either you just watch them be murdered or you do something about it. You can run away, or you can stand and fight. You don't just abandon your family to their fate and then tell the survivors there was nothing to be done.

It's very telling that she's outsourced protection to warriors. She's not willing to get her hands dirty but she knows hands have to get dirty for her own safety.
 
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I don't know the lore of Planetos very well, so this speculation might be completely off base or I might be rehashing already known stuff;

I cannot see how the people of Lhazaar, their culture or their religion, could have actually formed into a coherent and self-sustaining whole that has managed to survive into the present, not in Essos or on Planetos in general, without enjoying the protection of a much more powerful society for a significant length of time, one willing to kick people's faces in when needed.

Do we know how long they have existed as a people? Who protected them while their culture and religion gelled into its current form?
 
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