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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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It could just be the Dum waystone that's reducing the Dhar? It doesn't need to be directly linked with whatever's going on with Morghur.
 
To follow up on my post, it's possible that the best course of action is just... WAIT. Just wait.

Borek's going in, right? If there's anyone left alive in Karag Dum, I presume he'll report that there's an expedition of steam wagons sitting out here. Now Borek is obviously so ashamed that, well, he feels like the right thing to do is for all of karaz ankor to wash their hands of Karag Dum. But... that's Borek's point of view. Everybody in there, if there's anybody in there, has had 185 years to come up with their self-justifications. If we WAIT it seems very possible someone will come out and say hello. And if they don't, well, that sort of says it all about whether Karag Dum wants to reestablish contact with karaz ankor, doesn't it?
 
[x] THEORY: The specifics are hazy, but this is a known contingency plan that Borek is entirely aware of, but hoped hadn't been enacted. The result breaks all Dawi notions of acceptability, but Karak Dum survives in some capacity and continues to inflict attrition on every local and visiting Chaos force that want to take a swing at them, so it is considered a lesser evil by the pragmatic Karak Dum.
[x] ACTION: Turn back

I don't like our chances of trying to search for more info. There's not enough meaning behind the vote itself anyway.
 
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Briefvoice said:
To follow up on my post, it's possible that the best course of action is just... WAIT. Just wait.

Borek's going in, right? If there's anyone left alive in Karag Dum, I presume he'll report that there's an expedition of steam wagons sitting out here. Now Borek is obviously so ashamed that, well, he feels like the right thing to do is for all of karaz ankor to wash their hands of Karag Dum. But... that's Borek's point of view. Everybody in there, if there's anybody in there, has had 185 years to come up with their self-justifications. If we WAIT it seems very possible someone will come out and say hello. And if they don't, well, that sort of says it all about whether Karag Dum wants to reestablish contact with karaz ankor, doesn't it?
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Coincidentally, investigation also means waiting, since no matter what kind of investigation we're doing, I doubt the steam wagons will do anything but sit there. So if they are willing to talk, they will contact us at some point while we're doing so.
 
...Just occurs to me:

When Mathilde was unclogging the Vlag Waystone, did she feel the energy channel going both ways (i.e. from Dum to Vlag and from Vlag to Dum)? Or just one?
 
Mopman43 said:
[X] ACTION: Turn back


At this point... there's no way this turns out to be something the Karaz Ankor wouldn't burn Karag Dum for. It doesn't really materially change anything. And staying any longer in the Chaos Wastes with it's man-eating childhood homes seems too risky.
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The Karaz Ankor is gonna be disgusted by anything to do with Dum, but that doesn't mean we can't sate our own curiosity!

We could have the caravan start an about face while we check things out and catch up later
tapkomet said:
I don't think it's fair to dismiss the idea of this being Morghur entirely.

It is actually twisting reality, as per text of the update. It just doesn't seem to be doing so in a Chaos-y way. So this is either Morghur that's been cleansed/suppressed of Chaos somehow, or something comparatively powerful and also attractive to Beastmen. Either way, it seems like it should be approached with extreme caution.
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It could also be a Kickflip Runepriest on the level of Kragg, who drives the Winds to metaphorical tears and whimpers with his mere presence.

Less likely, but possible.
 
Guile said:
We could have the caravan start an about face while we check things out and catch up later

It could also be a Kickflip Runepriest on the level of Kragg, who drives the Winds to metaphorical tears and whimpers with his mere presence.

Less likely, but possible.
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Such a Runepriest seems like they'd meet the description of "something comparatively powerful and also attractive to Beastmen"
 
DragonParadox said:
The fact that as far as we know there is no such thing. If your theory requires the existence of previously unknown classes of beings that look very like the cannibalistic monsters as old as civilization it's going to require some very extraordinary proof and I don't think it's worth risking Mathilde's life looking for such.
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There is extraordinary proof, Mathilde is looking directly at it with her magesight.
 
tapkomet said:
Coincidentally, investigation also means waiting, since no matter what kind of investigation we're doing, I doubt the steam wagons will do anything but sit there. So if they are willing to talk, they will contact us at some point while we're doing so.
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Yeah, but an active investigation by Mathilde is a lot more dangerous than waiting beside everyone else.

Something that just occurred to me is that if Mathilde dies, the knights and their mounts are going to starve. She is the only one capable of casting Mockery of Death. Maybe this is a moment when we ought to be a little more cautious than usual, out of a sense of responsibility if nothing else.
 
Abhorsen said:
What do people to hope to gain by investigating other than satisfying their curiosity?
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In addition to wanting complete information for the records as has been discussed, there was a brief mention that seems to have gotten lost in the thread of possibly getting tools/expertise to aid in repairing the Dwarf Road down from the Steppes for the way back - which isn't out of the realm of plausibility for several of the possible scenarios that have been brought up even if Dum has fallen to Chaos in some form or another (see us buying meat from Uzkulak).

[x] THEORY: The specifics are hazy, but this is a known contingency plan that Borek is entirely aware of, but hoped hadn't been enacted. The result breaks all Dawi notions of acceptability, but Karak Dum survives in some capacity and continues to inflict attrition on every local and visiting Chaos force that want to take a swing at them, so it is considered a lesser evil by the pragmatic Karak Dum.

[x] ACTION: Politely ask Morghur to be granted entrance into Karak Dum.
[X] ACTION: Gain more information.
 
Briefvoice said:
To follow up on my post, it's possible that the best course of action is just... WAIT. Just wait.

Borek's going in, right? If there's anyone left alive in Karag Dum, I presume he'll report that there's an expedition of steam wagons sitting out here. Now Borek is obviously so ashamed that, well, he feels like the right thing to do is for all of karaz ankor to wash their hands of Karag Dum. But... that's Borek's point of view. Everybody in there, if there's anybody in there, has had 185 years to come up with their self-justifications. If we WAIT it seems very possible someone will come out and say hello. And if they don't, well, that sort of says it all about whether Karag Dum wants to reestablish contact with karaz ankor, doesn't it?
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tapkomet said:
Coincidentally, investigation also means waiting, since no matter what kind of investigation we're doing, I doubt the steam wagons will do anything but sit there. So if they are willing to talk, they will contact us at some point while we're doing so.
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Every moment we spend here we passively acquire more Dhar taint and lose morale. That's not a problem for us because of the belt, but for everybody else, it's more of an issue. In my opinion, if we do want to establish contact, then we should just ask. Politely. Barring that, we should leave.
 
Briefvoice said:
Yeah, but an active investigation by Mathilde is a lot more dangerous than waiting beside everyone else.

Something that just occurred to me is that if Mathilde dies, the knights and their mounts are going to starve. She is the only one capable of casting Mockery of Death. Maybe this is a moment when we ought to be a little more cautious than usual, out of a sense of responsibility if nothing else.
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Waiting around isn't exactly safe either, this deep in the Wastes. I would not advise it. We'd suffer both physically and mentally.

Also, don't we have enough supplies to get back, atm? The margin isn't great, but they will probably be fine.
 
tapkomet said:
Such a Runepriest seems like they'd meet the description of "something comparatively powerful and also attractive to Beastmen"
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Are Beastmen hot for Greatbeards? They do seem to like waystones, but they also like meteors and other crap, I'm not sure the Dwarves have anything to do with it
 
[x] ACTION: Wait for at least two days and see if Karag Dum sends out an emissary. Borek will report back, and perhaps someone inside will feel less ashamed than he does.
[x] THEORY: How and why does not matter. The expedition's responsibility is to bring word to Karag Dum of the state of Karaz Ankor if any yet live and to bring back any message, refugees, or other explanation from Karag Dum. Borek has fulfilled the first responsibility. We should attempt to to fulfill the second, even if just by observation and waiting a decent time for any messenger from Karag Dum to emerge.
[x] THEORY: That's not Morghur. Morghur constantly changes his surroundings, Morghur does not make reality more stable near himself, Morghur does not display affection, Morghur does not not attack people, Morghur would never stay here unless he was bound, and if he was bound he'd be struggling constantly to get out. The shuddering of reality can be faked by Runesmiths if they wanted.
[x] ACTION: We need to verify if the situation here is stable, or if it's something that will come back to haunt the Karaz Ankor and Empire if left ignored.
[x] ACTION: Persuade the Expedition to stay put for a day while you sneak to the gates of the Karak and try to have a chat about it.
[x] Action: Pray for guidance. In this realm reality is more malleable, perhaps our gods will be able to reach us more easily here.
[x] THEORY: The Dwarfs have control over Cor-Dum and is likely being controlled by Karak Dum's King or Leader, They are doing this to protect Dum and keep Chaos from getting hold of it, there is an ongoing siege to break this defense with a nearby source providing power to the desert to weaken the defenders.
[x] ACTION: The cure for confusion is curiosity, and there are two other fronts attacking Dum. The rest of the Expedition should pull clear for now, though. You can catch up.
[x] THEORY: This could be a Rune-based Illusion with "Morghur" being a Runemaster. The Dawi of Karag Dum let the forces of Chaos assume that Dum has fallen and is surrounded by Beastmen forces so they don't all unite to attack the Hold together and instead only come in smaller groups to "test" themselves against another chaotic force.
[x] THEORY: The dwarves of Karag Dum are alive and uncorrupted by Chaos, but have resorted to truly drastic measures to survive, probably undertaken by their controversial "Rune Masters", which involves having these beastmen or beastmen-appearing creatures defending the karak for the dwarves. We can assume that this is all in favour of the dwarves by Morghur's easy acceptance and non-destruction of Borek as well as Borek's mutual acceptance of the beastman. The idea of Rune Masters being critically involved is the certainty that some form of magic was used to create this whole situation, including the odd weather, and the Rune Masters' lack of corruption is supported by the lesser level of ambient dark magic in the area, even directly around Morghur himself.
[x] THEORY: The specifics are hazy, but this is a known contingency plan that Borek is entirely aware of, but hoped hadn't been enacted. The result breaks all Dawi notions of acceptability, but Karak Dum survives in some capacity and continues to inflict attrition on every local and visiting Chaos force that want to take a swing at them, so it is considered a lesser evil by the pragmatic Karak Dum.
[x] THEORY: Omegahugger
[x] THEORY: Things are not what they appear as at the first look. Nothing Mathilde knows allows for what they are witnessing to be the reality.
[x] ACTION: The forces should move back at least a half-days distance, find a defensible spot, and camp out for a few days to give them a chance to investigate, but no more than two-three days, the overall safety of the expedition still comes first.
[x] [THEORY]: There are no dwarves to save. Either the "Cor-Dum" we saw is somehow fake, in which case the dwarves hold the place, and need no help holding it; Cor-Dum is real and allied somehow with the dwarves, in which case the dwarves are not worth our trouble as they have allied with chaos; or Cor-Dum is real and conquered Karag Dum, in which case there are no dwarves left to save.
[x] [ACTION]: Turn back.
[x] [Action] Scout the other fronts, ask other expedition members for what they might have happened, check with the other wizards what their expertise tell them about the magical and natural environments.
[x] ACTION: Attempt to contact the nearby Kurgan tribes for information.
[x] ACTION: Investigate further.
[x] ACTION: Gain more information.
[x] THEORY: Karag Dum may have found a way to create and control beastmen.
[x] THEORY: Physical signs point to Morghur having been holding the area against nomad raiders for a very long time, and history implies that he's not been seen in the old world since approximately when Karag Dum would have come under attack during the Great War against Chaos. He's been here this whole time.
[x] THEORY: Magical signs and, less reliably, intuition about Borek, point to there being something uncorrupted in that mountain in the middle.
[x] THEORY: Theory continued: Borek expected Morghur, Morghur favors Borek, Borek isn't chaos-aligned(he had the chance to prevent us from acting on Vlag, but he didn't, and was, in fact, happy about the result). Obvious conclusion, Morghur is aligned with Borek in some way apart from alignment to chaos.
[x] THEORY: They have formed a pact with Morghur to defend them and probably isolate them from everything outside, but it is still uncertain whether they've actually fallen into corruption, maybe chaos dwarves now, maybe not.
[x] ACTION: Dig up some of those bones to confirm how they died.
[x] Theory - There are no Beastmen, only Dryads, Elgi and illusions
[x] Theory - There are no Beastmen, only Dryads and illusions.
[x] THEORY: Through either Pact, Binding or some other venue the dwarfs of Karag Dum have installed Morghur as some form of defensive guardian, supported by the fact that Morghur is treating the mountain as a giant herdstone while to my vision it is not. The confounding factor here is that the energy flowing out of Karag Dum is uncorrupted. Morghur himself would almost certainly be using it for his own ends, so it means the occupants of the hold either don't know how to use it, don't care to use it or still consider themselves part of the Karaz Ankor enough that they let the energy flow uninterrupted.
[x] ACTION: We need information. The Yusak have been in this area for long enough, they must know something of what happened. The wagons will pull back to their territory, and while they are en-route I will attempt to directly ask Morghur (From a distance, using a spell) what has become of Karag Dum. If the worst comes to worst we will already be retreating and I will be fast enough to catch up. We will figure out our further course of action once we know more.
 
3: Karag Dum is exuding an environmentally massive amount of heat, described as a "hot, gritty wind that seems to be blowing directly into [Mathilde's] face."
BoneyM said:
- The landscape around Karag Dum has changed, including the disappearance of the smaller mountains around it, the growth of a forest around its base, and the appearance of a desert around the forest. It is also hotter here than anywhere else in the Steppes. Apart from the forests covering the lower parts of it, the exterior of Karag Dum appears unchanged.
- The forest is inhabited by Beastmen, who seem to be obeying Morghur.
- As far as Mathilde can tell, none of this is an illusion.
- There is less ambient Dhar here than other parts of the Chaos Wastes Mathilde has seen, though still more than outside of it.
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... Huh.

Is this... The Rune of Valaya in action? o_O


Belt of the Unshackled Mountain: A protective runic talisman made for you in repayment for your actions during the Sieges of the Drakenhofs.
Spellburner Rune: The first rune is a variation on the Spelleater Rune. When a hostile spell is targeted against you, it will not only counter it but also burn - literally burn - the knowledge of it from the mind of the caster. It will be dormant for twelve hours after each use.
Rune of Rancour: The second is based on the Master Rune of Spite, but somehow combined with the Rune of Fortitude. It will grant you the strength to withstand wounds, while returning twofold any strike against whoever dealt it to you.
Rune of Valaya's Vengeance: The third, the largest and most intricate of the three incorporates elements of both the Rune of the Furnace and the Rune that Valaya gave to the dwarves that allowed them to weather the coming of Chaos. It will grant you such resistance to flame that you could wade through lava, and burn off any taint of chaos before it could even touch you.

Holy fuck.

Did they tune some huge Karak-Rune of Valaya to "burn off all the taint from Morghur"?

Is that what the fucking did? o_O

Holy shit. Is that why it's so hot here, and why there is so little comparative Dhar in here?

They tuned a Karak-Rune to purify Morghur's corruption.

Oh my god.

Is THAT what they did? O_O

I haven't read through the discussion at all (aha, 60 pages to catch up on? Well'p) so I don't know if anybody else has said this before (I only just copied the "point 3" from some poster, barely read their post, so I don't know if they even say this) but...

Fuuuuuuuuck. If that's what is happening, then, holy shit.

So the Dawi are using their art to purify Beastmen.

While culturally believing that the arts of the Ancients are supposed to be used to protect a Dwarf from Chaos and the Winds of Magic.

But instead, they turned their art to burning away corruption, so that they could get a friendly(?) sane(?) maybe Dum-born maybe Dum-captured Morghur to defend them.

Holy SHIT.


... Okay.

I am... Now more optimistic about what is going on at Karag Dum.

And, in fact, the idea of them using the Runes of Valaya to burn away corruption and use the results/consequences of what-were-once-corrupted beings to defend themselves... It fits. It would suck and weigh at the Dawi soul and spirit. But it's not necessarily horrible Chaos Dwarf tier shit. Just... things that nobody had thought of or figured out how to judge.

Wow.

On the bright side, this makes me more willing to believe that "just walk into Karag Dum and start talking" might actually not be suicidal.
 
Garlak said:
3: Karag Dum is exuding an environmentally massive amount of heat, described as a "hot, gritty wind that seems to be blowing directly into [Mathilde's] face."

... Huh.

Is this... The Rune of Valaya in action? o_O


Belt of the Unshackled Mountain: A protective runic talisman made for you in repayment for your actions during the Sieges of the Drakenhofs.
Spellburner Rune: The first rune is a variation on the Spelleater Rune. When a hostile spell is targeted against you, it will not only counter it but also burn - literally burn - the knowledge of it from the mind of the caster. It will be dormant for twelve hours after each use.
Rune of Rancour: The second is based on the Master Rune of Spite, but somehow combined with the Rune of Fortitude. It will grant you the strength to withstand wounds, while returning twofold any strike against whoever dealt it to you.
Rune of Valaya's Vengeance: The third, the largest and most intricate of the three incorporates elements of both the Rune of the Furnace and the Rune that Valaya gave to the dwarves that allowed them to weather the coming of Chaos. It will grant you such resistance to flame that you could wade through lava, and burn off any taint of chaos before it could even touch you.

Holy fuck.

Did they tune some huge Karak-Rune of Valaya to "burn off all the taint from Morghur"?

Is that what the fucking did? o_O

Holy shit. Is that why it's so hot here, and why there is so little comparative Dhar in here?

They tuned a Karak-Rune to purify Morghur's corruption.

Oh my god.

Is THAT what they did? O_O

I haven't read through the discussion at all (aha, 60 pages to catch up on? Well'p) so I don't know if anybody else has said this before (I only just copied the "point 3" from some poster, barely read their post, so I don't know if they even say this) but...

Fuuuuuuuuck. If that's what is happening, then, holy shit.

So the Dawi are using their art to purify Beastmen.

While culturally believing that the arts of the Ancients are supposed to be used to protect a Dwarf from Chaos and the Winds of Magic.

But instead, they turned their art to burning away corruption, so that they could get a friendly(?) sane(?) maybe Dum-born maybe Dum-captured Morghur to defend them.

Holy SHIT.


... Okay.

I am... Now more optimistic about what is going on at Karag Dum.

And, in fact, the idea of them using the Runes of Valaya to burn away corruption and use the results/consequences of what-were-once-corrupted beings to defend themselves... It fits. It would suck and weigh at the Dawi soul and spirit. But it's not necessarily horrible Chaos Dwarf tier shit. Just... things that nobody had thought of or figured out how to judge.

Wow.

On the bright side, this makes me more willing to believe that "just walk into Karag Dum and start talking" might actually not be suicidal.
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That...

That actually seems to me like the only theory here that has no weakness and makes perfect logical sense while being within the powerlevel of the Dawi.

Can we get a theory vote out of this?
 
Garlak said:
3: Karag Dum is exuding an environmentally massive amount of heat, described as a "hot, gritty wind that seems to be blowing directly into [Mathilde's] face."

... Huh.

Is this... The Rune of Valaya in action? o_O


Belt of the Unshackled Mountain: A protective runic talisman made for you in repayment for your actions during the Sieges of the Drakenhofs.
Spellburner Rune: The first rune is a variation on the Spelleater Rune. When a hostile spell is targeted against you, it will not only counter it but also burn - literally burn - the knowledge of it from the mind of the caster. It will be dormant for twelve hours after each use.
Rune of Rancour: The second is based on the Master Rune of Spite, but somehow combined with the Rune of Fortitude. It will grant you the strength to withstand wounds, while returning twofold any strike against whoever dealt it to you.
Rune of Valaya's Vengeance: The third, the largest and most intricate of the three incorporates elements of both the Rune of the Furnace and the Rune that Valaya gave to the dwarves that allowed them to weather the coming of Chaos. It will grant you such resistance to flame that you could wade through lava, and burn off any taint of chaos before it could even touch you.

Holy fuck.

Did they tune some huge Karak-Rune of Valaya to "burn off all the taint from Morghur"?

Is that what the fucking did? o_O

Holy shit. Is that why it's so hot here, and why there is so little comparative Dhar in here?

They tuned a Karak-Rune to purify Morghur's corruption.

Oh my god.

Is THAT what they did? O_O

I haven't read through the discussion at all (aha, 60 pages to catch up on? Well'p) so I don't know if anybody else has said this before (I only just copied the "point 3" from some poster, barely read their post, so I don't know if they even say this) but...

Fuuuuuuuuck. If that's what is happening, then, holy shit.

So the Dawi are using their art to purify Beastmen.

While culturally believing that the arts of the Ancients are supposed to be used to protect a Dwarf from Chaos and the Winds of Magic.

But instead, they turned their art to burning away corruption, so that they could get a friendly(?) sane(?) maybe Dum-born maybe Dum-captured Morghur to defend them.

Holy SHIT.


... Okay.

I am... Now more optimistic about what is going on at Karag Dum.

And, in fact, the idea of them using the Runes of Valaya to burn away corruption and use the results/consequences of what-were-once-corrupted beings to defend themselves... It fits. It would suck and weigh at the Dawi soul and spirit. But it's not necessarily horrible Chaos Dwarf tier shit. Just... things that nobody had thought of or figured out how to judge.

Wow.

On the bright side, this makes me more willing to believe that "just walk into Karag Dum and start talking" might actually not be suicidal.
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I like the idea, but I suspect there's a lot more going on. So far this doesn't explain:
A: The Forest
B: Where did the mountain range go
C: Why is there a crater, and why is Karag Dum now at the bottom of it.
 
[X] THEORY: The specifics are hazy, but this is a known contingency plan that Borek is entirely aware of, but hoped hadn't been enacted. The result breaks all Dawi notions of acceptability, but Karak Dum survives in some capacity and continues to inflict attrition on every local and visiting Chaos force that want to take a swing at them, so it is considered a lesser evil by the pragmatic Karak Dum.
[X] ACTION: Gain more information.
BoneyM said:
Though Borek's pace is steady, his process across the sand is anything but, as the heat-shimmer embraces him and sends mirages of his image shimmering to and fro.
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I continue to be unconvinced by the majority opinion that illusions aren't a major part of what we're seeing. Mathilde failed to see through the illusion on the Chaos Slayers. Mathilde sees nothing from Runecraft. If this is, for example, a massive Waystone-powered illusion to disguise a bunch of Gronti, how would Mathilde even know? We certainly have proof that even Teclis can be fooled, and Mathilde doesn't have any unique traits or knowledge that'll let her sense Rrunecraft.
 
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storryeater said:
That...

That actually seems to me like the only theory here that has no weakness and makes perfect logical sense while being within the powerlevel of the Dawi.

Can we get a theory vote out of this?
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Unless there are glaring difference between my work and Garlak's I've written one up, I think.

[] THEORY: The Dwarves of Karag Dum did something to burn away the taint of Chaos, much as your Belt of the Unshackled Mountain does, but on a far grander scale. Perhaps it had an effect on the Beastmen here, Cor-Dum included.

Though thank you @Garlak I think you said that better than I could.
 
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