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Dwarves don't birth Beastmen in the first place, that's a human thing.

Certainly that's bare cannon for the setting Beastmen are born of humans, but It might not be the case in this quest setting.


I absolutely agree re: the desert, but that still doesn't explain the elevation change and the crater that Dum is now in (or, honestly, the rest of the mountain range disappearing).
Though it's possible they pulled a spacial displacement and it's entirely unrelated to the beastman thing, it certainly wouldn't be irrelevant to their situation now (which ofc effects what we should/can do).

We're in the chaos wastes now. Terrain altitude isn't a fixture, fits with the idea of there being a bubble of reality around the karak.
 
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Certainly that's bare cannon for the setting Beastmen are born of humans, but It might not be the case in this quest setting.
Except for them to be exposed to enough magic the Runes of Valaya would have to fail, and in this setting that would kill all the Dwarves by turning them into stone and therefore prevent any births.

Then you have all the other reasons that thing we just saw isn't actually Morghur, so at this point 'Dwarves do not birth Beastmen' is just a trivial detail.
 
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It's an experiment and a bit of a mess, but it's one that so far I'm pretty sure I can distil a meaningful result out of, so I don't want to pull the plug on it just yet.
If you're willing to read the whole thread and distill the essence down, it's a very interesting experiment; Godspeed, that's not a light workload you've taken on.

Dwarves don't birth Beastmen in the first place, that's a human thing.
Well, I wouldn't put too much stock in that part of canon when we're already derailed and are amidst the Chaos Wastes.


I absolutely agree re: the desert, but that still doesn't explain the elevation change and the crater that Dum is now in (or, honestly, the rest of the mountain range disappearing).
Though it's possible they pulled a spacial displacement and it's entirely unrelated to the beastman thing, it certainly wouldn't be irrelevant to their situation now (which ofc effects what we should/can do).
It doesn't, no. The mountains could be shrugged off as having been worn down to dust or something (but would raise very alarming implications), but the elevation change doesn't make much sense.
Maybe someone tried to displace the entire hold the fuck out of dodge, and Chaos yanked it back mid transition?
 
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We should check the bones first before we put forward a theory on this actually being Morghur and a pack of beastmen. If the remains show signs of being killed by beastmen that's a good indication it may be true (or that they have a fake).

But if the bones don't show those signs then it'd be kind of embarrassing to put forward a theory that could so quickly show massive holes (since it would be a good indicator the whole thing is an illusion and there are no beastmen).
 
No, it really hasn't made that clear at all. It's been made very clear that using dhar will cause even the best person to go insane. And that's just Dhar. Chaos is a whole 'nother level of bad on that. Dhar one can know and not use, and be safe. Chaos has been known to corrupt by even knowing the stuff. There are no shades of grey when it comes to chaos. Using the name of the gods might have bad result. You can accidently call their attention on to you and be tempted that way. So no, I don't see any shade of grey here.
You don't need to use Dhar to make Runes. Dwarfs don't need to cast magic to do magic. Like, Mathilde does not need to channel magic so that her sword cuts things.

The mental pollution does not need to enter the equation is what i am trying to say. You just need to make a rune that suborns will. Thats pretty dark and goddamn radical, but it would likely not corrupt a dwarf just designing it.
 
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Woke up, in a half-awake haze read the second update first, was confused, realized my mistake, read it in the proper order, am still confused.

[x] THEORY: The specifics are hazy, but this is a known contingency plan that Borek is entirely aware of, but hoped hadn't been enacted. The result breaks all Dawi notions of acceptability, but Karak Dum survives in some capacity and continues to inflict attrition on every local and visiting Chaos force that want to take a swing at them, so it is considered a lesser evil by the pragmatic Karak Dum.

[X] ACTION: Turn back

Forget it Dawi, it's the chaos wastes.
 
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It doesn't, no. The mountains could be shrugged off as having been worn down to dust or something (but would raise very alarming implications), but the elevation change doesn't make much sense.
Maybe someone tried to displace the entire hold the fuck out of dodge, and Chaos yanked it back mid transition?

I have a conjecture that fits this scenario. The way stone is powering a rune of Valaya which does more than we thought it did, there's a bubble of reality being asserted by the rune. The terrain tried to warp and grow in height however the bubble of reality around the karak makes it look like there's a crater.
 
IT could be that rather than being born here it might be that he died here and they used some sort necromancy to replace his mind with a dwarf one while they were reviving him.

I was sure @Omegahugger would say this.
 
You don't need to use Dhar to make Runes. Dwarfs don't need to cast magic to do magic. Like, Mathilde does not need to channel magic so that her sword cuts things.

The mental pollution does not need to enter the equation is what i am trying to say. You just need to make a rune that suborns will. Thats pretty dark and goddamn radical, but it would likely not corrupt a dwarf just designing it.
No, I'm not saying the dwarves used Dhar (they almost surely didn't). I'm saying that if they enslaved Cor-Dum and the beastmen, they interacted with Chaos (see: Cor-Dum), which is far worse and far more corrupting than Dhar. And using if using Dhar long term is guaranteed corruption (which it is without our one weird trick), then there is no scenario I see where enslaving Cor-Dum doesn't end in mass corruption, as the one weird trick won't save you from Chaos.
 
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Because that doesn't follow at all. Having found a way to scratch by so far does not at all mean have established a permanently tenable defensive position. We simply do not know what the current strategic and tactical situation is.

Exactly, at worst Karag D
Occam's razor is about the simplest explanation while kooking at all the clues, not the simplest explanation period.

All the clues point to the fact that it cant be Morghum, because hed have to be on 2 places at once, (Borek knows the guardian, Borek fled Dum when it fell, Dum fell before the end of the chaos war, Morghum was seen elsewhere shortly after the war, this guardian does not leave according to the Kurgan) which violates Occam's razor.

Didn't Morghun and Karag Dum both vanish at about the same time 200 years ago? If anything it points to Morghum being here as the reason why he hasn't been seen in so long.
 
Alright, took me a while to read the discussion, here is what i think:

"I wasn't aware that Karag Dum would know of the network," you venture.

He smiles bleakly. "Karag Dum remembers much that others have forgotten, even when some might prefer we didn't. Even when we might prefer we didn't."

We have been focusing too much on what is going on and not enough on why its going on.
Karag Dum knew of the waystones, and thus almost certainly of how important they are to the rest of the dwarfs.
This isn't Karak Dum falling to chaos or enslaving beings, this is the most important dwarf trait, the weight of responsability.

1) Cor-Dum was last seen much further south, and no evidence of it ever moving north, thus he arrived him in some other way, since we know that he is reborn after slain the logical explanation is he arrived here that way.
1a) The timing of the resurrection and the fact that Borek recognized it implies the resurrection was not random, Karag Dum knows of a way to bind and control both Cor-Dum and his resurrection process.
1b) Thus Cor-Dum has always been in Dwarf control, they just choose not to use it, Cor-Dum is either a Dwarf creation or was bound a long time ago.


2) Cor-Dum's chaotic nature seems tempered, he is not uncontrollably mutating the environment and seems to possess intelligence
2a) Cor-Dum was reborn here, he was reborn a dwarf, Umgi are soil, Dwarfs are stone, a Dawi Cor-Dum can maintain his mental faculties and have some control over his power.

3) There are more beastmen here, under Cor-Dum's control, Beastmen have volition and thus agree with Cor-Dum's overall goal.
3a) The beastmen are all dwarfs.

4) The mountain has been to a degree transformed into a Herdstone or Herdstone equivalent, the mountain is now sorrounded by Forests, Cor-Dum possesses Dwarf intelligence.
4a) The herdstone was placed intentionally with Dwarf help, the Herdstone's effects are to the benefits of the dwarfs, the beastmen are in their element in a forest, the Herdstone created the forest.

5) The desert sorrounds the forest and ends abruptly, the desert is covered in bones, an open environment favors cavalry.
5b) The desert was not created for or by the dwarfs/beastmen, Chaos created the desert.
5c) To counter the herdstone, energy needs to be used to maintain the effect, somewhere nearby someone is sending energy to maintain the desert.

6) Cor-Dum is the dwarfs name for Morghul, the letter C does not exist in Khazalid, Borek recognized Cor-Dum, Kor as the closest equivalent is used in Ankor, meaning realm or kingdom.
6a) Cor-Dum is Kor-Dum, Dum's Charge or Dum's Domain, possibly both.

[X] Theory: The Dwarfs have control over Cor-Dum and is likely being controlled by Karak Dum's King or Leader, They are doing this to protect the Waystone and keep the Karak Ankor safe, there is an ongoing siege to take control of the waystone with a nearby source providing power to the desert to weaken the defenders.
[X] Action: Look for the source of the desert.

As explained above, this are not the dwarfs doing this for themselves, this are they sacrificing themselves to keep the Karaz Ankor going, we cannot save them, but we can honor their sacrifice, we can allow them to hold for longer. There are likely living dwarfs inside the hold still, and everytime Cor-Dum dies he is reborn and reforged anew by a new wielder.
After we disrupt whatever is holding their forest back, we should make contact and ask if they wish to send a message or some relic back to their people.
 
I have a conjecture that fits this scenario. The way stone is powering a rune of Valaya which does more than we thought it did, there's a bubble of reality being asserted by the rune. The terrain tried to warp and grow in height however the bubble of reality around the karak makes it look like there's a crater.
Interesting thought. Could have been an attempt to bury the Kharak, or weaponize the terrain in some way. Alternatively, If local time outside of the Kharak was sufficiently accelerated, you'd end up with a layer of detritus and topsoil (or whatever passes for it in the Wastes) accumulating around the Kharak at a rate faster than it did inside the bubble. Given how little vegetation is present, I think it would mostly have to be the result of weathering and dust storms, though.

@BoneyM Dwarfs typically have fairly precise topographical maps, right? Do we have those? Could we compare them against the current terrain we actually traveled to get here to see if there's been a detectable elevation change, and figure out whether the Kharak is lower, or the surrounding terrain is higher?
 
They've been hugging the Expedition ever since one of them found the house he was born in, and then it bit him.
Useless lot. Have they scouted and forewarned us about anything important in this expedition even once? All they did was fight a few daemonsteed riders at our flanks and say hi to some already allied Kurgan.
 
Refining my theory:
[X] THEORY: When Karak Dum warned the others about Chaos, the other holds instead chose to freak out about the elven army that had just landed upon the shores of the old world. The elves were later revealed to have been chasing Cor-Dum. What if K-Dum tried to remove C-Dum so the elves would go away and the dwarves could send reinforcments up north. However, they bound the demigod to their waystone instead—possibly by accident, possibly on purpose, definitly with forbidden knowledge. They weren't able to prevent the great war in time, so they chose to double down and make Cor-Dum their protector.

Long version:
[X] THEORY: Morghur has been bound to Karak Dum's waystone, which is acting as a psudo-herdstone. Morghur now sees dwarfs of Karak Dum as allies. This waystone manipulation may also be the cause of the weird geography. Based on Boreks last words, this was a longstanding contingency plan held by the dwarfs of Karak Dum. He is ashamed because it's a desecration of one of the greatest works of the Ancestor Gods.

Short version:
[X] THEORY: Morghur has been bound to Karak Dum's waystone

Action vote (unchanged):
[X] ACTION: Offer Snorri command of the expedition, take it if he declines, then fetch the chaos cup and then go home.
 
Near the same all around, but rising and falling to match the terrain of the non-desert side.
This is the part that bugs me about the 'well, chaos wastes have variable terrain' explanation, @SuperSonicSound. If it were just chaos doing chaos things, I'd expect the elevation changes to be... well, chaotic. The fact that it's pretty uniform suggests either a 'natural' phenomena the Waystone is keeping out (warpstone dust deposits?) or else something intentional.

I also don't think the chaos wastes are uniformly higher than the rest of the world.
 
@BoneyM Dwarfs typically have fairly precise topographical maps, right? Do we have those? Could we compare them against the current terrain we actually traveled to get here to see if there's been a detectable elevation change, and figure out whether the Kharak is lower, or the surrounding terrain is higher?

Surveying was not among the skillsets that the Expedition recruited for, unfortunately.

@BoneyM Are there records of Morghur from before the war of the beard?

Mathilde can't really check from here.
 
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