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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Ragnar said:
The one Every Dwarf hold is built upon. In the hands of a sufficently determined Wizards, Karaks are damn bombs waiting to blow.



We are traveling into the closest thing to hell on earth that exists. It was always going to be a disaster.

The only question is how much we can make it fucking hurt.
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Is Mathilde a Slayer? I would like her to get out alive thank you.
 
BelligerentGnu said:
....Hang on. Is this a legit possibility? Because I know that dwarves managed to enslave Shard Wyrms with runic collars in canon, and chaos dwarves do a lot of enslaving.

Also, how did Borek not get insta-mutated?
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Because it's probably not Morghur. Except that we can't even investigate to see whether it is, because if it is Morghur, then that's instant quest bad-end.
 
[X] THEORY: The specifics are hazy, but this is a known contingency plan that Borek is entirely aware of, but hoped hadn't been enacted. The result breaks all Dawi notions of acceptability, but Karak Dum survives in some capacity and continues to inflict attrition on every local and visiting Chaos force that want to take a swing at them, so it is considered a lesser evil by the pragmatic Karak Dum.

Wanted to make a Theory that at least held the basic facts I am confident in, not reaching out into extreme specifics that we have to guess at. Just to give Mathilde a baseline, particularly if she's grabbing the top theories. The fact that this shit is kinda inflicting permanent attrition on local chaos forces is something that I only just really focused on. This deal with the devil does seem to be very anti-Chaos in its results, which I hope Mathilde at least can identify.
 
IronFist said:
@BoneyM : should we have gained a mastery of Rite of Way from our 100+ roll? Or am i misremembering the mechanic? Or does it not apply to the spell since its our creation?
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While others have pointed out that RoW is self-made and thus can't be mastered, I feel it bears repeating that there's no set of hard rules for mastery, it's entirely down to when I say so.

IronFist said:
@BoneyM, as I understand it dwarves are literally incapable of forgiveness in canon WHF, which makes this a very weird turn of phrase to me. Does it strike Mathilde as similarly weird, or is this an example of DL quest canon diverging somewhat?
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You can replace 'forgive' with 'judge our attempt at recompense and ultimately our deaths as valid repayment for the damage we have done'. Cultural context and all that.
 
BelligerentGnu said:
....Hang on. Is this a legit possibility? Because I know that dwarves managed to enslave Shard Wyrms with runic collars in canon, and chaos dwarves do a lot of enslaving.
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Yeah, there is precedent from both of those. Also, Runemasters calling themselves Runemasters. They just might have found a way.

BelligerentGnu said:
Also, how did Borek not get insta-mutated?
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Either Morghur has control over his mutate field and decided not to in some kind of weird Nurgle-lite affection plot, or he is enslaved and his power shackled, or its one of the other posibilities that got brought up (like it just being a very convincing fascimile, made to attract and command beastmen in the name of Dwarfs).
 
[x] THEORY: Things are not what they appear as at the first look. Nothing Mathilde knows allows for what they are witnessing to be the reality.
[x] ACTION: The forces should move back at least a half-days distance, find a defensible spot, and camp out for a few days to give them a chance to investigate, but no more than two-three days, the overall safety of the expedition still comes first.
[x] [Action] Scout the other fronts, ask other expedition members for what they might have happened, check with the other wizards what their expertise tell them about the magical and natural environments.
[x] [Theory] All we know is that it is friendly and non chaotic. That is enough for now.
[x] [Action] wait nearby and observe. It shouldn't be nearly as dangerous as it seems, and that allows us to gather additional clues.
[x] ACTION: Attempt closer examination of Morghur, the beastmen, and the forest.
[x] THEORY: Karag Dum is under an illusion.
[x] THEORY: Karag Dum is intact, and has a vast illusion of Morghur for protection.
[x] ACTION: Form up the steam-wagons for defence.
[x] ACTION: Investigate further.
[x] ACTION: Gain more information.
[x] ACTION: Enlist Journeyman Cyrston's help in identifying flora.
[x] THEORY: Magical signs and, less reliably, intuition about Borek, point to there being something uncorrupted in that mountain in the middle.
[x] ACTION: either feign retreat while we secretly return to scout out the situation, or fort up while we scout out the situation. Scout to determine whether there are actually dwarves on the inside, whether they've gone over to chaos, and whether they would actually want to leave.
[x] ACTION: Dig up some of those bones to confirm how they died.
[x] ACTION: Very careful scouting. Both by the knights, dwarves and Mathilde. Starting with inanimate matter and other disposable stuff(like the cows) to determine where the edges-borders of the effect are and just what the hell the effect is without entering it, while the convoy digs in and readies itself to attack, from behind or from the Karag. If that doesn't lead to some clarity, more aggressive scouting may be needed. Either way, Karag Dum is still a part of the Karak Ankor, and there are ways that link them could be used by demons to hurt the whole realm, especially now that Vlag is back and the links reestablished. So while a part of me might prefer as the wise option to turn back, we cannot leave such a threat without establishing its exact nature, if only so I can bring back news of what to do to about it to King Belegar and the High King.
[x] THEORY: Whatever the hell is happening, Borek seemed to still care for what Karaz Ankor thought of him and that what we are seeing is the result of his home trying their best to fufill their duties in ways the rest of dwarves probably wouldn't approve. The Corrupter seemed to recognise Borek as almost kin and hasn't made a move against us. I think some very careful investigation is warranted.
[x] ACTION: either feign retreat while we secretly return to scout out the situation, or fort up while we scout out the situation. Ask the local tribes to get confirmation of how long Cor-Dum has been here, and a story of how he arrived. Maybe send some Winter Wolves and Hubert(or just Hubert)somewhere to ask, Hubert knows Khazalid right? Scout to determine whether there are actually dwarves on the inside, whether they've gone over to chaos, and whether they would actually want to leave.
[x] ACTION: Mathilde will infiltrate the hold and look for more answers. In the mean time the convoy should circle the Steam-Wagons and avoid provoking a fight they can't win. If she has not returned within 24 hours they should turn back and attempt to make their way back to civilisation to inform the Karaz Ankor, Empire and Kislev what they found.
[x] Theory - There are no Beastmen, only Dryads and illusions.
[x] Action - Approach Cor Dum
[x] THEORY: Karag Dum is using a fake Morghur to make the real beastmen fight for them.
[x] THEORY: This is a mass hallucination.
[X] THEORY: Omegahugger
[X] THEORY: The Dwarves of Karag Dum did something to burn away the taint of Chaos, much as your Belt of the Unshackled Mountain does, but on a far grander scale. Perhaps it had an effect on the Beastmen here, Cor-Dum included.
[x] ACTION: Politely ask Morghur to be granted entrance into Karak Dum.
 
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Ragnar said:
We don't need to take the place, we just need to retard their ability to stop us blowing the place.

To be frank, if we leave this place standing, this entire venture is a failure. We didn't just bring word back of a fallen hold, we bring word back of a Fallen Hold.
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We don't know for sure the particulars, but at he very least :
- Karag Dum's waystone still seem functional,
- We haven't been attacked nor been shown hostility,
- Morghur hasn't wreaked havok in the civilized lands for centuries (that we know of),
- Kurgan tribes are distracted (at least somehow) by testing themselves on the beastmen.

Seems like letting the place be is the least we can do. If anything we ought to help them to ensure they can keep holding on!
 
Here's the thing: it doesn't matter what the truth is exactly. What does matter is whether we can help. And we can't, as there is no one there to help. Either they've fallen to chaos, managed to trick chaos, or are all dead. In all scenarios, there's no one that needs saving. So all that we would satisfy is our curiosity, and that's not worth risking the expedition. There is a relevant theory for this here.
 
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Personally, I think a basic issue is that we assume that our perspective can't be fooled when previously they got caught up in the memetic trap and due to that managed to find out about the illusion. While it is possible we are more resistant to illusion, we are not immune to illusions. It is a basic fact that Ulgu in itself expresses confusion and 'arbitrary' lines of reality being crossed. Which may affect our own perspective unknowingly, given there shouldn't be anything preventing the confuser from being confused as well. But that's mostly tangential to the point that the information we are given is assumed to be infallible when we are in a place where Reality distorts and bends.
 
So, a thought occurs to me. We have living cows on top of our wagon. Can we make them walk to morghur and like, try to drag them back if it kills them to look for signs of mutation? Because that would be a really good way to prove this is not actually Morghur? Idk if we can drag them back, but Morghur being Morghur, mutations should be visible even at relative distance.

Just one would suffice tbh, no need to waste our rations.
 
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[X] THEORY: The dwarves of Karag Dum are alive and uncorrupted by Chaos, but have resorted to truly drastic measures to survive, probably undertaken by their controversial "Rune Masters", which involves having these beastmen or beastmen-appearing creatures defending the karak for the dwarves. We can assume that this is all in favour of the dwarves by Morghur's easy acceptance and non-destruction of Borek as well as Borek's mutual acceptance of the beastman. The idea of Rune Masters being critically involved is the certainty that some form of magic was used to create this whole situation, including the odd weather, and the Rune Masters' lack of corruption is supported by the lesser level of ambient dark magic in the area, even directly around Morghur himself.


Godwinson said:
[X] THEORY: Things are not what they appear as at the first look. Nothing Mathilde knows allows for what they are witnessing to be the reality.
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I'm really not a fan of this theory. It is exactly saying "I, the Loremaster and Lady Magister, do not know what's going on or why everything is happening and my best guess is that something else is happening." It is insufficient.
 
I'm going to bang the drum again for my theory that the Dwarves of K-Dum somehow bound C-Dum to their waystone as a reverse herdstone, probably to take away the High Elves reason to march an army though the Old World, which was distracting the other holds from focusing on the threat of the chaos wastes. At some point they must have loosened C-Dum's leash so he could protect the hold—maybe the Runemasters twisted the waystone energies to create a forest, but in doing so destroyed the landscape?

That's why Borek asked for the forgiveness of the Ancestors—they desecrated a holy artefact (the waystone) to bind and tame a chaos monster.
 
Abhorsen said:
Here's the thing: it doesn't matter what the truth is exactly. What does matter is whether we can help. And we can't, as there is no one there to help. Either they've fallen to chaos, managed to trick chaos, or are all dead. In all scenarios, there's no one that needs saving. So all that we would satisfy is our curiosity, and that's not worth risking the expedition.
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Maybe the place is sieged?
Maybe the hold is still held deeper inside?
Maybe their is still a remnant hiding in the deepest reaches?

We don't know.

Maybe the place is a stronghold of the enemy. In which case, it's well worth winnowing the expedition to destroy it.
 
[X] THEORY: Karag Dum has somehow tricked or compelled Morghur to fight the Kurgan tribes.
[X] ACTION: Turn back

Didn't our engineer back home say something about not wasting lives on hopeless revanchism? Best conserve ourselves for stealing the Chaos Cup.
 
So, Imma approve vote some stuff, my stance doesn't change, but it should help consolidate votes similar to mine.


[X] ACTION: Gain more information.
[X] [Action] wait nearby and observe. It shouldn't be nearly as dangerous as it seems, and that allows us to gather additional clues.
[x] ACTION: Investigate further.
[X] [Theory] All we know is that it is friendly and non chaotic. That is enough for now.
[X] ACTION: Expedition: Digs in; Mathilde: Investigates

I'm also gonna vote for the most popular theory that doesn't imply Dum Dawi fell to chaos, despite all magical evidence showing a normal for the area amount of corruption. If any other theory that implies that takes off, I'm gonna add it too.

[X] THEORY: Karag Dum is using a fake Morghur to make the real beastmen fight for them.

EDIT: that one, I like too.

[X] THEORY: The specifics are hazy, but this is a known contingency plan that Borek is entirely aware of, but hoped hadn't been enacted. The result breaks all Dawi notions of acceptability, but Karak Dum survives in some capacity and continues to inflict attrition on every local and visiting Chaos force that want to take a swing at them, so it is considered a lesser evil by the pragmatic Karak Dum.
 
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Ragnar said:
The one Every Dwarf hold is built upon. In the hands of a sufficently determined Wizards, Karaks are damn bombs waiting to blow.
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Its probably behind their defences standard karak defences, and the non conventional ones which include Morghur and who knows what else.
Also, the dwarfs of dum still remember the waystones, so can probably fix a blockage.
I don't think poking a nest of ornery dwarfs living in hell and trying to blow them up does anyone any favors.
So far, they do not seem hostile to us. I would like it to stay that way.
 
Oh by Tepok, this vote is going to be a mess.

[X] THEORY: Omegahugger
[X] [Theory] All we know is that it is friendly and non chaotic. That is enough for now.
[X] [Action] wait nearby and observe. It shouldn't be nearly as dangerous as it seems, and that allows us to gather additional clues.
 
[X] THEORY: Karag Dum has turned to forbidden arts, and Borek left in shame.
[X] [Action] wait nearby and observe. It shouldn't be nearly as dangerous as it seems, and that allows us to gather additional clues.
[X] ACTION: Gain more information.

No. I refuse to back down. Not when there's a not-chaotic Morghul.
If he was chaotic? I'll fuck off immediately and be happy to live.
But this? I am tempted to just walk up and politely ask (in Khazalid ofc) what the fuck.
 
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