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"Karag Dum is under an illusion / powerful Runes" doesn't explain why Borek is so ashamed / resigned or why he walked off without an explanation. Clearly there's some shady shenanigans going on.
Depends on what sort of runes are generating the hypothetical illusion. We know that the local Runesmiths/Runemasters were practising their kick flips even before they were cut off - they may well be using some rather unsavoury means to power their defences (such as the souls of slain attackers, for instance) or the runes themselves may be proscribed.
 
I suppose it's possible that Morghur was reborn as a Dwarf newborn.


Alratans idea fits but that's not enough to cause Borek to basically tell us to write off Karak Dum, so there's obviously more to it than that. The big hole with both illusion and this is that Borek wouldn't be shamed by this. Although Dawi-Morghur drawing the beastmen to fight for them would be shameful. Hmmm I guess that's not entirely impossible it's just, is it safe to probe this question? I don't really think so.
 
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Checking if the warping aura exists is pretty easy just take one of the cows wake it up and get one of the ambers to send to towards him.

Granted everyone should be backing up right now to go check on bones to see if they look like beast man kills or if they are warped from the aura.

Just caught up on this quest, it's really good, I'd like to not see it end by " you walk over to the beastman lord confident he's an illusion, roll for mutation"
 
It would be kind of hilarious if a few hours later Borek came back and said, "Hey everyone, it's just an illusion."

Tragically hilarious if everyone just gave him up for dead and Karag Dum for completely cursed and left before he returned.
 
Again. MATHILDE said that there was no illusion she could detect.

The Chosen of Ranald.

Wizard Lord of Ulgu

Best Living Windsight in the Old World.

If she can't see it its almost certainly NOT an illusion.

In fairness a Runic illusion would be outputting genuine normal light and shit so that's not certain but it certainly punches a massive hole in the athel loren idea.


After taking back k8p Belegar thought we would quit over what amounted to nothing due to weird Dwarven notions of honor

Over lying about Mathildes actions, plenty of humans would have quit in a rage due to that, you're talking about the scene where Mathildes request for backup from KAK was instead changed to be that she never asked for aid in the first place so that the High king wouldn't be shamed.
 
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Again. MATHILDE said that there was no illusion she could detect.

The Chosen of Ranald.

Wizard Lord of Ulgu

Best Living Windsight in the Old World.

If she can't see it its almost certainly NOT an illusion.
Unless she rolled a 1 on a Windsight roll, which wasn't noted in the update for the same reason that many other rolls aren't noted.
 
Neither our Light Order guys nor our Celestial are listed to have those spells, but sometimes we don't get all the spells they have.
Now is the time to ask them, if they have those. @BoneyM

She'll shake down her journeymanlings for data when she gets a chance.

Checking if the warping aura exists is pretty easy just take one of the cows wake it up and get one of the ambers to send to towards him.

Granted everyone should be backing up right now to go check on bones to see if they look like beast man kills or if they are warped from the aura.

Just caught up on this quest, it's really good, I'd like to not see it end by " you walk over to the beastman lord confident he's an illusion, roll for mutation"

They only took on enough cows for the critters to gorge at the edge of Dolgan territory. Rolling through the Chaos Wastes with exposed cattle on your roof seems like asking for trouble.
 
From your very limited knowledge, Morghur was last seen being pursued by High Elves in Bretonnia shortly before the Great War Against Chaos.

I think this part may be a hint gesturing towards Athel Loren's involvement, as I can't imagine the Wood Elves wouldn't get involved if Morghur was so close to them, and the High Elves might have tipped them off. My think its that its either its meant to indicate:
- Morghur was killed by the Wood Elves shortly after this, forcing his re-incarnation somethere near (or in) Karag Dum.
This would strengthen the theory that Morghur was somehow bound by Karag Dum Radical Runelords as a baby after being born in the hold. This makes a lot of sense, but Morghur is one of the most powerful chaos beings in the world. I just struggle to believe they could have harnessed such a creature so completely.

or

- The Wood Elves did something to more permanently deal with Morghur, that resulted in him ending up here.
Could they have teleported him to here via the worldroots? I vaguely recall the wood elf lore suggesting putting morghur in contact with the worldroots would either corrupt or kill them, but I'm not 100% whether that's true or applies. Wood elves could possibly be behind the forest, obviously. And they'd want to stash Morghur as far away as possible, somewhere secure as possible. Still no idea on the mechanics of this. Could the wood elves have lured Morghur to Karag Dum using its waystone with some sort of deal with the Dawi, who were so close to doomed they agreed? But then how did they bind Morghur? Which seems to be what happened. Ariel has been working on a solution to the Morghur problem for centuries, is this what she figured out? She finally figured it out, and built a prison that churns up chaos tribes and saves dwarves to boot?

Morghur is clearly different somehow from what we generally understand. His touch probably should have corrupted/mutated or at least pained Borek. So, what has happened? He seems to still have his disrupting energy effect. I don't get it.

And why is there a desert? And then a forest? Wood elf magic could do that, I suppose. I've never heard of dwarven runes doing anything like that. There's not too much Dhar here (despite fucking Morghur being here), so something must be siphoning off enormous amounts of energy. The Waystone? Souped up with elf power/upgrades? Ariel herself? Unless Morghur is not giving off the energy so much any more? If so, how is that possibly happening?
 
I think that some dwarfs sacrificed themselves and turned themselves into beastmen, some part of their mind is still intact so they are loyal to Karag Dum, built the giant Herdstone so beastmen gathers around Karag Dum which they then subjugate and protect the Herdstone and Karag Dum and Waystone alongside that.
 
I think this part may be a hint gesturing towards Athel Loren's involvement, as I can't imagine the Wood Elves wouldn't get involved if Morghur was so close to them, and the High Elves might have tipped them off. My think its that its either its meant to indicate:
- Morghur was killed by the Wood Elves shortly after this, forcing his re-incarnation somethere near (or in) Karag Dum.
This would strengthen the theory that Morghur was somehow bound by Karag Dum Radical Runelords as a baby after being born in the hold. This makes a lot of sense, but Morghur is one of the most powerful chaos beings in the world. I just struggle to believe they could have harnessed such a creature so completely.

or

- The Wood Elves did something to more permanently deal with Morghur, that resulted in him ending up here.
Could they have teleported him to here via the worldroots? I vaguely recall the wood elf lore suggesting putting morghur in contact with the worldroots would either corrupt or kill them, but I'm not 100% whether that's true or applies. Wood elves could possibly be behind the forest, obviously. And they'd want to stash Morghur as far away as possible, somewhere secure as possible. Still no idea on the mechanics of this. Could the wood elves have lured Morghur to Karag Dum using its waystone with some sort of deal with the Dawi, who were so close to doomed they agreed? But then how did they bind Morghur? Which seems to be what happened. Ariel has been working on a solution to the Morghur problem for centuries, is this what she figured out? She finally figured it out, and built a prison that churns up chaos tribes and saves dwarves to boot?

Morghur is clearly different somehow from what we generally understand. His touch probably should have corrupted/mutated or at least pained Borek. So, what has happened? He seems to still have his disrupting energy effect. I don't get it.

And why is there a desert? And then a forest? Wood elf magic could do that, I suppose. I've never heard of dwarven runes doing anything like that. There's not too much Dhar here (despite fucking Morghur being here), so something must be siphoning off enormous amounts of energy. The Waystone? Souped up with elf power/upgrades? Ariel herself? Unless Morghur is not giving off the energy so much any more? If so, how is that possibly happening?

tbh I think this information fits much better with the idea of Morghur being reborn as a dwarf in Karak Dum and them doing something to stop his chaotic nature from asserting with runes but it still doesn't answer enough.
 
[X] THEORY: Karag Dum is using a fake Morghur to make the real beastmen fight for them.

[X] ACTION: Gain more information.
[X] ACTION: Attempt to contact the nearby Kurgan tribes for information.
[X] ACTION: Attempt closer examination of Morghur, the beastmen, and the forest.
[X] ACTION: Infiltrate Karag Dum to gather information.

Yeah, things are not as they seem here. Simply leaving now, without so much as trying to figure things out, with some trite "theory" that we didn't even amass arguments in favour of, or otherwise try to verify? Why, that would be a betrayal as a warrior, a dwarf, a wizard AND a researcher!
 
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Anyway, I think people should seriously consider the implications of the theories they're proposing. Like, some of the speculation that we're doing forms grudge worthy/ slayer worthy accusations.
 
We have a great deal of political capital that could be expended if we chose to. How about, before we leap to conclusions like this, we wait and see?

So you know how the greatest crime of the Dawi Zhar was enslaving and enhancing greenskins? Turns out you really should have been doing it to beastmen and then it would give you the Ancestor seal of approval.

I'm pretty sure you would see mass suicide at that point if you could somehow convince the dwarfs that was true.
 
Oh damn, this is why I hate being late for updates, I miss the critical part of the discussion.

All right, all right, this can still be solved logically, lessee...

Here's the base facts

Morghur:
- Morghur is said to have been 'born' three hundred years ago, but there's stories of beings identical to him stretching back throughout recorded history.
- From your very limited knowledge, Morghur was last seen being pursued by High Elves in Bretonnia shortly before the Great War Against Chaos.
- From what the Yusak said, and what the banners you passed seem to attest, Kurgan tribes have been fighting or 'testing themselves against' Morghur for some time.
- Morghur did not attack Borek, instead greeting him with what to Dwarves is a very intimate gesture.
- Borek's reaction to Morghur did not seem surprised.

Karag Dum:
- The magic flowing to Karak Vlag was uncorrupted, which you're fairly sure would not have been the case if the Hold had been conquered by Beastmen.
- The landscape around Karag Dum has changed, including the disappearance of the smaller mountains around it, the growth of a forest around its base, and the appearance of a desert around the forest. It is also hotter here than anywhere else in the Steppes. Apart from the forests covering the lower parts of it, the exterior of Karag Dum appears unchanged.
- The forest is inhabited by Beastmen, who seem to be obeying Morghur.
- As far as Mathilde can tell, none of this is an illusion.
- There is less ambient Dhar here than other parts of the Chaos Wastes Mathilde has seen, though still more than outside of it.

So lets take it step by step.


- The magic flowing to Karak Vlag was uncorrupted, which you're fairly sure would not have been the case if the Hold had been conquered by Beastmen.
- There is less ambient Dhar here than other parts of the Chaos Wastes Mathilde has seen, though still more than outside of it.

Whatever this is, it ISN'T chaos, despite how it looks. If it was a mega chaos thingy, it would have corrupted everything, even bound or contracted or friendly. So the Dawi have not fallen to chaos.

- As far as Mathilde can tell, none of this is an illusion.

Which means what it means. It is real, regardless of whatever else it is. Even if we were fooled, charging Kurgans aiming to battle/get mutated wouldn't.

- Morghur is said to have been 'born' three hundred years ago, but there's stories of beings identical to him stretching back throughout recorded history.

Meaning this could be a being other than Morghur, and in fact...

- From your very limited knowledge, Morghur was last seen being pursued by High Elves in Bretonnia shortly before the Great War Against Chaos.
- Borek's reaction to Morghur did not seem surprised.

It most likely is, because this defense would have to be prepared before Borek left for him to recognise it and for it to recognise him, and Dum fell during the war of chaos, while Morghur was last seen elsewhere after the end of the war. He couldn't have moved either, because

- From what the Yusak said, and what the banners you passed seem to attest, Kurgan tribes have been fighting or 'testing themselves against' Morghur for some time.

Ergo, occam's razor, this is a different being.

- Morghur did not attack Borek, instead greeting him with what to Dwarves is a very intimate gesture.

Said being is friendly to the Dawi to an extreme degree.

- The landscape around Karag Dum has changed, including the disappearance of the smaller mountains around it, the growth of a forest around its base, and the appearance of a desert around the forest. It is also hotter here than anywhere else in the Steppes. Apart from the forests covering the lower parts of it, the exterior of Karag Dum appears unchanged.

The area around Dum got changed, but Dum itself did not. It was, however, changed in a symmetrical manner, unlike what chaos would do. Finally

- The forest is inhabited by Beastmen, who seem to be obeying Morghur.

Which seems to imply that whatever this is, beastmen or something resembling them are loyal to it.

Those are the facts and the most reasonable inferences, but... a few clues seem to be missing for a definite answer. That said, It doesnt matter.

[X] [Theory] All we know is that it is friendly and non chaotic. That is enough for now.

[X] [Action] wait nearby and observe. It shouldn't be nearly as dangerous as it seems, and that allows us to gather additional clues.
 
Mhm,
- we know rhe Yusak have 'lost favour' with the chaos gods
- we know that an artifact capable of making chaos champions is somewhere out here
- we know the tribes have a history of testing themself against Dum
- we are seeing someone who at least looks like one of the scariest beastman champions around

What if the Yusak lost this artifact in a fight against Dum? And they are using it ?

[X] THEORY: Karag Dum looted the chaos artifact and are using it to make a (pseudo?)-Morghur beastman champion.

[X] ACTION: ask Ljiljana if the artifact is with the beastmen or within the Karag
 
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You people do realize you are actively putting in effort in trying to find excuses for it "totally" being Morghur instead of just accepting that it's a silly idea formed by panic at this point?
 
[X] [Theory] All we know is that it is friendly and non chaotic. That is enough for now.
[X] [Action] wait nearby and observe. It shouldn't be nearly as dangerous as it seems, and that allows us to gather additional clues.

Yeah, I can get behind at least this much.
 
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